great info …the different ways to go…I personally have all glass ons for travel and surfing…but I love my single fins and with the box i use lots different designs…not doing anything like that with thrusters but would love to have a go…and with all that info seems i should try the fcs…geoff doesnt like them cause they are always fixing them at the factory…we need an alternative…wat do ya rekon?
yeah the fixing in properly is good…
when ever I test them …by hand …to sea if there is any movement in the base there usually is…im thinking they could be great to test fins all shapes and sizes, once you got something that is working…I rekon get it made in the best materials and glass em on…wadda ya think?
I have not made thousands of boards like most of you guys. I have only used FCS as they are readily available in shops where ever you go. I have noticed that people do have a tendancy to over tighten them. I did have one or 2 problems in the beggining but that was due to my bad installation techniques I now make sure that I put that extra patch of matting on when I do the install. But one of the key things is to show the rider how to put them in proberly. It’s nothing to loose a fin but it’s a bitch repairing a board with a box ripped out or half the rail taken away because the fin hit a rock and didn’t exit the box on impact or break off.
Hey Cheyne,
I don’t like FCS either. One problem that I have not seen addressed is that the FCS plugs are prone to popping through the deck. A deck pad helps but often times the forward plugs are in front of the pad. After the usual pressure dings set in, the plugs start to crack through the glass… not real fun to fix and a great place to cut your foot. As an alternative I would recommend Futures. The larger box seems less prone to the pressure ding pop through.
On a side note… I just had my second Star Fin break on me last night (one of the wings snapped off). Have you ever attemted to have these things manufactured with fiberglass? Just seems like the plastic is a bit brittle. I love the fin and it pains me every time I loose one.
yea im having second thoughts about the whole fin system thing…
look its great that you have the versatility for swaping fins , removing for travel , experimentation…
i dont have dramas with my own boards…
but some of my customers do the dumbest things that frustrate me , over tighten ,cant work out which end is supposed to pop out first and snap things , keep em in while traveling and damage them,or lose one fin ,hit a rock and lose a fin …lose grub screws,or keys
where as when i was doing all set fins ,solid as a rock ,guys were coming in with half there fin ground down but the fin was still in , all cracks around the base and chips in the fin but still in and surfable…
fin systems are great for so many reasons , but theres always some drama …
whereas the old way , you just set em and forget em …
then the other side is customers moving there fins and not getting the best out of there board …
i had this one guy come in after a year ,he says"finally worked out where the fins work best " " where they were when i picked the board up"
if i make a board the fins are set up to harmonise with the package and overall theme of the board , customers playing with and changing fins ends up being a step backwards…i get guys coming in uming and ahing about there boards …
i say put these fins here,put that fin there in this position…
they come back the next week blown out how well there board works all of a sudden…
theres a good and bad side to everything…
i only wanna see my customers when they come back for another board,not be solving there fin system issues…
theres more but i wanna check out some other threads…
regards
BERT
The cause of over-tightening is because the threads are unlubricated and its difficult to detect when the set screw is setting into the fin so you just keep torqueing down until failure.
Minimizing over-tightening with FCS is very easy…
take the set screws completely out and spray some WD-40 on the screw and screw hole. When you tighten them detecting the proper setting/torque is much more obvious. Night and day difference.
Here’s another trick…tightening with your thumb and ring finger (instead of thumb and index finger)…much less torque from that combination.
Bert,
I'm pretty disappointed in your critique. That's the problem with our educational system these days. Teaching to the lowest common denominator. (This is an analogy not a critisism of your education) Shapers mark boards for their recommended fin placement based upon the trailing edge (which in and of itself is a dumbing down compromise, it should be based on the center of effort). That mark is permanantly on the blank. You mean to tell me people are so dumb they can't put a fin back on a dot? Some of the more involved shapers actually put a scale behind the fin box so their customer has the range spelled out. Options are a good thing! But, they do require a little bit of thought.
We designed our system to use slotted screws. If you can't find a straight blade screw driver, well that's pretty sad. And, we use stainless steel screws in brass nuts. They are self lubricating and the mechanical advantage makes pulling your fins down much more positive. Since the screws go through the deck, to get your fins out all you need to do is loosen the screws a few turns, push down on the head of the screw which will release the fin from the box and then finish un screwing. You don't need to rock them back and forth.
As far as durability is concerned, if you glass them in correctly, our attachment method will out perform glass ons. It's when people try to short cut the install that you run into durability issues.
It's all about options and providing more of them for all the different types of surfing styles and venues.
like i said tom ,i dont have a problem with them in my own boards , its my customers that cause the frustration , but its ends up being my time solving simple problems , due to there lack of common sense…
its just a simple observation …
also while ive got you here i wanna start a new thread on fin design ive found some real interesting stuff and i wanted your opinion and logic on the matter but i ran out of time tonight so it will have to be tommorow …
ok
regards
BERT
ps sorry tom i havent got back to you for a while i been hell busy with heaps of projects all at once ,plus other responsibilities…
I have used FCS,O’fisial,Future,and the Bahne boxes.I never used Tom’s stuff but it looks good.Seems to me like most of the problem is with the installers themselves.THey just go their own way and don’t pay any attention to the manufacture’s instructions.There are specific tools and jigs made by the manufacturer for these sytems.The router bits for Future and Official are custom tooled items made for that purpose,trying to save buck by using a dremel tool or something is asking for trouble.Heck when I bought my Future kit they sent me a good video on just what to do.Kokua is right on about leaving the jigs in the FCS boxes.Unfortunately most glass shops are too cheap to buy the required number needed for production.THe biggest problem I see is buying replacement fins for all of the different sytems.Usually all you can find are FCS replacement fins in an average surf shop.By the way Meecrafty’s tip about putting a lubricant on the screws is the best thing you can do,I put a drop of air tool oil on the screws and on the fin tab itself.Keep a little eydropper size bottle in your board bag.You can get it at Home Depot or the Lowe’s right next door too it.(LOL).
I understand what you are saying. And, there are some people that do need simpilicity. But, that’s no reason to toss the baby out with the bath water. We’ve all discussed before that there are no margins in hard goods. 99.9% of us that are involved in surfboard construction, just survive on what we make. The underlying reason we do what we do is the passion of the sport. But, it can be frustrating when people require extra attention with no extra compensation. That’s just the realities of our chosen industry. If we were luxury car manufacturers, we’d be providing all kinds of non-essential services and it would be worth while in the pricing. Instead we come into work and plan to knock out X amount of work and end up spending way too long giving free information to others. I’ve noticed two types of personalities in business. One is the introverted get shit done kind of guy and the other is the extroverted marketing kind of personality. Surfing hard goods don’t seem to have the margins to afford the second type. So, us introverted types have to get drug out of our shells and begrudgingly make the customer feel like their the most important person in the world. But, with all that extra effort we still do what we do because we love it. Don’t blame the customer for the realities of the market.
I’d love to get off this topic and back to foil theory development.
Yo Tom…do you remember me sending you an email a year or so ago about this wild theory I had about a ball/socket joint on a fin box?The fin would be able to move forward and backward and you could change the cant and the toe-in.At that time you thought it was not feasible…any more ideas on this??Or anyone else?
cleanlines,
I do recall and I thought I replied with a recollection of an Australian company that something along those lines. I believe their product was called Swivel. A couple of problems that I see with that idea are stack tolerance and bottom contour fit. If you make the ball and socket small enough not to disrupt water flow when the cant is changed, you're going to have a hard time finding a material strong enough to not twist all over. If you make the connection large enough to support the fin, when you change the cant something is going to be high in the water flow and something is going to be low. Swivel I believe had 3 or four parts that all had to fit together. The more parts. The more gaps. The poorer the fit.
Yea I remember that.I was Stoked that you even replied to my half baked theory.I have a prototype in my collection of thousands of other prototype gizmos somewhere.Its cool that you post around here.(thanks)I don’t hear anything from the other Fin System Gurus.Gotta go for now,I am trying to build a surform that cuts both ways.
I dont like to have to fix something after using it…of course I will…it seems to use a product that has to be fixed all the time wont last for long someone will come up with a real lasting alternative something we can change fins and have variety…what is the future system…sure ive seen it not sure which system…
as for the star-fin…i havent broken 1 in over 15yrs…are yours clear or opaque?
I’ll save my customer money and retain the integrity of the board much easier if all I have to do is replace a plug as opposed to replacing a fin box. Not to mention the possible colateral damage thru the deck or a busted rail or tail section. I’ve repaired the whole gammet. If my customer is going to run his fins onto dry reef,lose his board off the car top, etc. The easiest fix and the cheapest dollar-wise is going to be an FCS plug replacement. As I said in my post; lately I’ve gone to ofishl and futures. I am probably not going to use more than three friggin’ fin systems on boards manufactured under my own label. When I am working for someone else I will of course install whatever system they are using. Even if I gotta do the ever labor intense glass-ons. As a “ding repair guy”, I can tell you that no one shells out more money than the repair is worth, nor waits more than a few days when they bring a board to me. McDing