Howzit Ambrose, Gary Motil used was having PS shape big ones for him and we calld them Whale fish since they were so big. Are you holding down the fort while I’m gone. Was hoping to get back before Russell left but he leaves on the first I think and I don’t get home til the 6th. Did spend time with him and the wife on my last weekend on Kauai. at the start of March. Class act those two and proud to be their friends.Do you ever get down to see him when you are in So.Ca, the factory is classic. Aloha,Kokua
I ride fish big and small very regularly. Skip calls his big ones fish, until he turns them into fish-simmons and adds a tri. Stevie Lis makes big fish, though the only bigger fish I’ve ridden from him are more pulled in and gunny. They’re a valid design quite separate from an egg or “funboard”. Long, parallel rails, low rocker keep them a little less user-friendly when thinking of short-radius turns, but these characteristics retain a “true fish” feel as per the above ride descriptors. My 6’9 keel by Skip feels remarkably similar to the 6’0. Less skatey and less intuitively “connected” to the high line. Turns more from the back third, less whole rail.
I agree that Josh Hall is making very nice big fish both of the more traditional and fish simmons varieties.
the prehistoric fish
discovered in La Jolla
named for the kids
what dug it up
in an oldmemory
was The Mirandon
cloned regenerated
adapted to the reefs
and continues to evolve
Yes it was the Mirandon
currently on the brink
of extinction from
over predation by seals
and competition for
environs by smaller scooling
varieties. Praise Nick and Bear
altogether now repeat the words
Nick and Bear thanks kids…
and they saw it in balsa.
…ambrose,
.surfers journal vol17 #1
it was al nelson’s rendition
reflecting on simmons shorties
the win n’ sea
guys on a lark in '57
read it…mebe it’ll resonate…
like that tibetian bowl.
Like the original poster, I too am curious about bigger (midlength, say 7’ to 8’) boards with fish tail, twin or quad, anyone riding one? Pics, ride report? Guess it couldn’t be a real fish at that size, but wondering if you could capture a bit of the “fishy” feeling on a bigger board, or is it just a contradiction?
Love the Lis style, 1972
What I’m thinking - Reverb meant is, you can’t over power a fish board if it’s too LONG. This is a fact. Build anything you want. But the fish are designed for speed and tight pivoty turns - which become more difficult the longer you go.
OK, I get that, to a point. I can see how you’re gonna lose that “skatey” feeling that comes with a smaller board, less drag. And you won’t be able to carve the same tight radius turns. But the ability to go up on a rail and accelerate through a turn, and the “two-dimensional” turns of a twinfin, often criticized but one of the things I liked about them, you know, that kind of pendulum feeling they had in turns, can any of that be captured with a longer board?
Or maybe, a better question to ask might be: if the longer fish don’t really ride like a fish or qualify as a “true fish” (which I don’t dispute), what are the characteristics / benefits of the wide split fish tail (twin or quad) on a longer board?
I have made all sizes of fish shapes. They lose it and become long boards when they get 6 to 12 inches taller than the rider. When you start making 8ft of 9 ft fish shapes, they just become big surfboards with big tails. If thats what you what then just go buy a long board. There’s a lot of them arond here, I see Frys and Marbles and Larry Gordon "Mega Fish’ all the time in SD. Under the feet of a good surfer they look like a longboard at best, under a marginal surfer, they look like a freak show kook.
My personal opinion there isn’t any attributes in a big, wide, twin fin that I like. I like boards that turn…parallel rail, wide tails and big keel fins are not attributes of a board that turns…yes they do do fast!, but then I hate out running the wave, and getting way out on the shoulder. No some will argue that "well I have a quad big board with a pulled in tail and rocker, winged, swallow tailed etc etc…but then you are moving away from a mega fish, and more into the world of modern technology. And thats not what is being asked or discussed. And if we move into that world then the rounded pintail tri fin is my go to.
my 10 cents…I’ll crawl back under my rock.
Those are valid observations - And what I was wondering. Most the ‘big fish’ I see don’t look very appealing to me, but I do miss some of the characteristics of the small Lis-type fish I used to ride 30 years ago. I just can’t ride the little boards anymore, tried some in the 6’ 10" range, and liked the ride, but found myself getting more waves and having more fun on my longer (7’ to 9’ range) boards. I guess I’ll move along, but wanted to ask what others’ experience was, before I scratch it off my list.
is it kinda like this? combining two things that don’t really make sense?
i had a 5’8 zippi fish that was really fun. i tried a 6’5 even keel thinking it’d get my fat ass into more waves (i’m near 200lbs) but still feel like the zippi. i didn’t like the 6’5 fish at all…at least it didn’t remind me of the shorter fish. it just felt too big/planted/lumbering.
when i see stuff like this video, however, i think a 10’0 “swallow tail twin fin” would be rad to stay out in front of these little rincon runners.
why not, right?
I agree with the why not? ethos, gordof! - I also agree that they may not be that “fishy” either… however, the old right tool for the job: I have one that is 6’10", low keels, doesn’t turn too well, but it is the perfect board for me at a spot I like with long fast zippy ankle snappers (much shorter, but not unlike those tiny Rincon waves). The bonus is that at minus tide conditions, the keels roll right over the kelp. I don’t mind just hanin in the middle of the board and cruising - it’s fun sometimes!
I like the ride that guy has going on in the video - I’d really like to try one in the 8’ + range - does he have some kind of tri-plane deal going on in the hull?
If you’re being sincere, this vid – a promotional one by the company you mentioned – is kind of the answer to your question.
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the vid is of people who can’t surf even a little bit, and even then none of the boards are “longboard” fish such as in the photos you posted.
Here’s a “virtual demo” (their language) of a 7’+ fish of theirs whose message to the viewer is much the same as the other one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqYFGdTZTH4
Here in SC there are some older guys (like 50+ years) that surf oversized fish (7’ and longer) that seem to ride them so that they won’t be seen as riding longboards at shortboard spots – e.g. 1st bowl hook when there’s some swell. Without exception, the ones I can think of are just going straight. I can’t think of one I’ve ever seen make a turn other than a bottom turn.
That’s not intended to criticize them for that at all, just to put the actual (observable) uses of oversized fish into perspective.
APSmith in post #23 has it. What I’ve noticed is this. For me they loose that fish feel at around 6-6. The Fish Feel is that slippery frictionless feel of speed as soon as you bury that rail and keel on the first turn. They do bog and track on mushy waves or if you are not on the sweet spot. Once your up to speed, no tracking. Quadify it and they loosen up a bit, but also lose some of the downthe line drive. I’m addicted to the high line speed runs, sweeping cut backs, etc. I’ve watched talented riders surf Lis type fishes vertically or what some consider a more modern style both as a kid in the 70’s and as a 50 something kid more recently. I’ve watched guys surf 6’ 8" or so keeled fishes or quaded fishes at the boards birthplace so to speak very effectively. Big powerful bottom turns, toobs, and of course speed runs. An 8 or 9 foot ‘fish’ is just another long board. Every design element is a compromise. There is no free lunch.
They don’t work at all with deck pads. Mike
I have only been surfing for 3 years so take this for what its worth. I live on a racey reef point and surf it every day there are waves. When I started surfing I was on a 9’1 long board, then an 8’ Walden Magic Shape. After my first year, I called Stretch Riedel looking to buy a fish. Shorter but thick, wide, good for paddling (I am 51), blah blah blah. There are countless posts out there about the virtues of using a Fish as your transition board on not.
Stretch told me to get a 6’0 or shorter. Any longer, and it would not ride like a fish. I am 5’10, 160lbs and very much a beginner. I ignored his advice and got a 6’2x21 being fearful that I couldnt catch waves on anything smaller. Now my local break is very pitchy. And I busted my ass for a year and a half riding that fish. When it was chest or smaller, I could surf it. But even then, I felt like my take offs had me racing to the bottom more quickly than I should. The result being getting closed out often. Anything bigger than chest or head, for get about it… Too flat, too long and too big a tail for my skill level.
So this year, I decided to build me one of those flat rockered, short, fat, wide tailed boards that seem to be everywhere these days. Its 5’7x21.75. There are some pics of it somewhere on here. Much closer to the dimensions Stretch said I should be riding anyway. Once I got her to the beach I was pretty nervous that I would not be able to ride it. But to my surprise, this board catches everything the 6’2 fish catches but is easier on the steeper drops. I can turn it on the drop to set up for down the line, something that I really struggled with on the bigger fish. I am stoked and surprised.
Now the board I made is not a fish. But it has a similar rocker and outline, just without the big swallow. So put me in the camp of no big fishes. There are way better choices out there if you want to improve your wave count.
I think this is completely semantics… at what point does a “big fish” become a mini-tanker?
I think the biggest problem is the misnomer “fish tail” - there is no such shape as a “fish tail” in surfing because “fish” isn’t a tail shape it’s a planeshape. What everyone so confidently calls a “fish tail” is actually a swallow tail, with variations like “winged swallow, etc…” Once people start calling that tail shape by what it actually is, I think that the classification comes much easier. What you guys call “big fish” are just swallow-tail mini tankers or step-downs.
At least that’s my $.02 - any shaper who’s worked at a board rental place knows the frustration of a customer saying “do you have any fish shapes?” and after you tell him you don’t he points at this thing and says “Well what about that, isn’t that a fish??”
I love my fish. I think they need to be no longer than your own height to work, but hey ride what you like. My 5’9" is super light and lively. Love it in good shaped fast waves around chest to a little overhead. Love it love it love it. Reckon I could go smaller next time.
Love the drive, speed and carve of the keels, and I have absolutely no problems with tracking or lack of turning.
I disagree. A swallowtail has always been shallower, straighter, and narrower than a fish. When split tails became popular in the early to mid 70s there was a strong distinction between fish tails and swallows.
I do agree about the total misconception so many have when it comes to fish. When the design regained popularity some years back, a local shop (not owned or staffed by surfers) took a shipment of a batch of WRV shapes that were all swallowtails. Not a single one was a fish. Yet, every one of them was labelled “6’8 fish, 7’2 fish”, etc… and they all had three fins.
(1) I’m guessing you meant plan shape? I’ve never heard of a “planeshape”.
Yeah my phone seems to like to correct things to words that don’t even exist lately.
I Do see what you mean about the wider split tails… There is a definite different look to them from your average split. But I still think that’s one of the sources of the problem with the misnomer.
And why are we trying so desperately to cram something different into a pre-existing category and blaming the “fish purists” for not accepting it? All were doing is being lazy there, if a board is unique than it warrants a unique category altogether. I think that “big fish” is an okay start but is really only taking the shape of the tail into account and not the whole board… It’s like if we called the mini Simmons a “short longboard” because of its rounded nose - just doesn’t Do the shape justice
i was going to enter a pic of the sluggo pig dog fish ,but it’s no longer in the board archives,a pic that was sold here on tees and mugs…just vanished i guess?
herb