Reverb’s contribution on Chip’s thread about thrusters got me thinking…
Reverb commented that big fish aren’t really fish, that they don’t work.
They may not work as a fish, in the classic sense, but in certain conditions, e.g., knee/waist to shoulder high, it seems they must have some validity beyond a current flavor of the month factor. Not having had much experience riding them, I was wondering what opinions might be from those who have ridden and/or shaped them.
There seems to be a spectrum of styles out there, from the more eggy-ish hybrid forms (e.g. Kane Garden Orca, south coast swegg) to more traditional Lis-fish-stye drawn-out lengths: e.g. some of Skip Frye’s longboard fish and Tim Stamps’ longboard versions. Bruce Jones does both sytles: big ol’ fish, and a hybrid called the “fatty”.
Any thoughts on the form, such as in which conditions it would be valid as a longboard alternative, and whether more traditional fish template and foiling (flatter deck, less rocker, thickness to rails) or eggy with fish-ish swallow tail, work better?
My theory is that a true fish can’t be 7’0. But that’s not to say a 7’0 twin fin isn’t a valid design. It’s just not a fish. Fish inspired… maybe. A hybrid with a “fish tail”… OK, I can see that, too. But a fish is a shorter than short shortboard, that makes up for volume with width, thickness, and rocker adjustments. The fish tail and twin fins complete the package, and make that undeniable classification legit.
So in my mind, the question becomes, can you put a fish tail and twin fins on what would otherwise be a hybrid or mid-length design? Sure. I think that’s what those Big Fish really are… twin fin hybrids.
But they ain’t fish. And calling one a fish is like calling a 7’0 single fin a “longboard.”
I think the eggs are a little more versatile than a fish. Most people say that fishes smoke down the line but the turns are sweeping arc. Thats fine but Ive been on the search for something more versatile. I like this wakeskate board by Miller which is somewhere in between I guess. http://www.waterskatesurfboards.com/waterskate.aspx
I was hot on Mccoy Nuggets for a while until I heard it was $1000 to get them over here- only the real McCoys are magic- no joke! I later found Miller was in Oz too… Bummer, but food for thought. Wish Miller gave up more specs on his design.
One thing I’ve noticed riding fish is the inherent speed as soon as you pop up. Sure you can pump rail to rail to generate speed like you would a thruster but they are already going super fast. I’m not sure that this would be the case with a board at 7 feet in the same conditions.
As for the waveskate design, I’ve been riding a 5’10" Tim Stamps Skillet with a thruster set-up and it paddlles very similar to my Stamps fish (5’8") yet it doesn’t fly out of the gate. You have to make it go fast on your own. However the round tail allows for tighter more abrupt turns (in theory anyway as I’ve yet to maximize it).
When you’re going really fast on a fish you can skate around sections and because they are short you can change directions easily. Again a long fish would make it much harder to ride that way due to the length. Mid length boards are nice because the paddle and catch waves easily. Short Lis inspired fish can actually do the same but are way more manourverable. My two cents but I’m not a shaper just a rider.
Mid length boards are nice because the paddle and catch waves easily. Short Lis inspired fish can actually do the same but are way more manourverable.
Gotta agree with you there. I just got a midlength for small days, a 7’10’‘. It is great for small fat waves, but in hollow or decent size, my 6’2’’ twin keel ( better not call it a fish coz it has decent nose rocker, and a 10’’ swallow ) just rocks. It paddles at least as good as the midlength, but it turns much much better, and you can spin around and pop into waves easily.
On topic, i had a 7’3’’ fish, but the nose rocker was lower than my 6’2’'. I don’t know if that’s what i didn’t like about it, or if it was just the fact that i was used to a much shorter fish “style” board, but i got rid of it, as i was catching the nose rail in hollow/bigger waces ( head high + ). I did have a few good surfs on it, but i kept going back to my shorter fish “style” board, which, again, paddled just as good.
I built two “big” fishes, both 6’7". The first was flat, 3 inch thick and keel finned. On the smaller days it was a great alternative to a LB and had some serious glide, you could get away riding it up to a shoulder high day but I attribute that to the mushy waves that frequent the NW. Ultimately the rails were to boxy and the keels broke and de-lamed it so bad I made another.
This time I made something a little more suited to my style of surfing. It was flat until the last 10 inches where most the rocker kicked in up too 5". I foiled the railed more and gave it a quad. Now it paddles very well into waist high - slightly overhead early and has enough rocker for steeper drops and the quads hold nice. It also moves and is still easy to swing the tail around. The Wide point is about 4" forward but I still feel like I’m pushing water when I paddle, the prior paddled like a log. Pretty sure the fast nose rocker transition is the culprit.
I built two “big” fishes, both 6’7". The first was flat, 3 inch thick and keel finned. On the smaller days it was a great alternative to a LB and had some serious glide, you could get away riding it up to a shoulder high day but I attribute that to the mushy waves that frequent the NW. Ultimately the rails were to boxy and the keels broke and de-lamed it so bad I made another.
This time I made something a little more suited to my style of surfing. It was flat until the last 10 inches where most the rocker kicked in up too 5". I foiled the railed more and gave it a quad. Now it paddles very well into waist high - slightly overhead early and has enough rocker for steeper drops and the quads hold nice. It also moves and is still easy to swing the tail around. The Wide point is about 4" forward but I still feel like I’m pushing water when I paddle, the prior paddled like a log. Pretty sure the fast nose rocker transition is the culprit.
The boards Todd posted are not FISH. They are longboards with swallow tails.
“Look at Me…I ride a fish!!!” Yeah , everyone’s doing it !!!
A true fish hits a gray area at about 6’2" and turns into a big fish or hybird at around 6’4"…That doesn’t mean your board is not fun to ride…That justs means that everyone jumped on the band wagon and called their board a fish so they could sell more boards…
The next time some one asks you , “Is that a fun board ?” …what will you answer???
Yes, it’s a fun board…or…No , only KOOKS ride funboards…
I’m a kook because I only ride boards that are fun.
I had to laugh out loud when I read ambrose’s entry - I’ve been thinking all along of calling the board “The Flounder” (and trying to do a flounder drawing with some of the feel of the Tom Threinin fish on Jim Dunlop’s 2003 board - good luck). The name more of a comment on my surfing style rather than the board itself, I hope.
I’m not too good at history, but the way I see it, a fish is defined more by how it works, and less about what it’s numbers are. I this sense, a “fish” board approaching 7 feet isn’t going to work like the early designers of the fish intended. The question for me is, what’s the purpose of the design? If you’ve ridden a lot of fish, you know how they work… super fast down the line, great hold in the tube, smooth and fast over the flat spots, and… you can do full, hard turns it at speed on a relatively small wave face. They don’t snap like a thruster, but built right, they’re loose and hold their speed all the way through a turn that’s more like a shortboard than a mid-length or longboard. A 7’0 swallow-tailed, twin keeled middie isn’t going to ride like a true fish, because the physics of the design won’t allow it… unless your Joel Tudor!
So it doesn’t matter to me if it’s a quad or a keel… or if it’s 5’6 or 6’2… or has a 6 inch crack or a 4 inch crack. These are variations of the fish design. But when you go too long, or too narrow in the tail, or put a thruster setup on it, you change the performance to such a degree that you don’t get that fish ride.
Okay, let’s get a new name for this board, call it a “roe” ( = fish egg ) and consider it as a hybrid with validity in certain conditions.
With the aim of optimizing the design, what are the trade-offs and potential conflicts of combining aspects of fish and egg elements. Let’s say the aim is to retain as many of the fish qualities as possible (maintaining speed through the flats, making it around sections, smooth turns). The 9fish, for example, look like it has a pretty fish rail, beaky nose and template (although it looks thinner than a small fish - maybe that’s just relative given the size of the board).
Is there a certain point when performance might be improved by using a more egg-like foil and rails, e.g. pulling in tail, going thinner with softer forward rails, an egg or even mini longboard like nose (ala Kane Garden Orca)?
Josh Hall had some pretty interesting stuff utilizing Simmons-esque channels, a direction that he and Skip Frye are exploring. (Thanks for the suggestion - good stuff on the New York surfer website).
I think you have to start by looking at the difference between the two designs.
On a longer board, you’re dealing with a lot more rail. Fish have short rail lines, but they’re pretty straight and angular from the wide point back to the tip. Surfed off the front foot, the short rail line of the fish is still turned with ease because there’s very little board ahead of the wide point, and the angle of the rail provides even release for the length of the board back of center… which is only 3 feet or less of board. The wide tail and weighted front foot keeps a considerable amount of rail in the water through the turn, and the large surface area of the keel fin provides hold even when the board is almost perpendicular to the water surface.
A longer version would need much more board out of the water on a hard turn to keep the turn relatively tight, so you’d have to add rocker, pull in the tail, or pull the wide point back, or some combination of the three. There’s three basic conflicts as a start. One you start doing that, you’re looking at a board that looses some speed over the flats, and has to be surfed more evenly in terms of front-to-back foot weighting.