I have been pondering over the design of my next board. My last one was a 6’ 2" chambered balsa/redwood combo. Actually, I’m still applying the last few coats of finish to it. Next time I’m thinking about going big and solid. I’d like to build a solid wood long board specifically for nose riding. It will probably end up being about 70 lbs. or more. At that weight I would imagine that some of the typical board design techniques should be thrown out. A few months ago I went to the Surfing Heritage Museum in San Clemente. They have a great collection of really old school solid wood boards. The hulls of these boards more closely resemble boats than surfboards. I’m not looking to recreate a classic design. I want to make something that rides well, and has a ton of glide. What kinds of design characteristics should I incorporate into the board?
How long, how think, and how much rocker? I was thinking that it will be tough to change directions on such a heavy board if it is too flat.
Should I do 50:50 rails or something more turned down?
Should it have hips?
How full should the nose be to support my weight?
I’d like to design it for surfing in lined-up shoulder to head high point break conditions. I’m 6’ and 200 lbs.
With any luck, Jim P will see this thread & have time to comment…
He brought out 3 Quigg-style reproductions to San O last year. The day before, they had been surfed at Malibu in the conditions you describe. Hopefully you can see enough to answer some of your questions…
Outlines look pretty ‘normal’ - I think these were right about 9’. Not really hippy, but maybe some wider tails to get the heavy beasts going downhill. I think the 2 solid ones (in the sun) weighed about 50 lbs and the chambered one (under the tent) was more like 25 or 30. Jim obviously chooses his balsa very well Rails were quite fine, in both the adjective & subjective sense. Thin, pinched even, but no hard edges, and closer to 60/40 in the front end, more like 50/50 in the tail, if I remember right. Belly under the nose, but not really a boat hull like a blended vee, but just a smooth fullness. They had fins that looked kind of like single keels, maybe 9" on the base and 7 or 8" deep?
They drew a crowd, of course…starting with the red shorts & going right, that’s DanB, Bagman, Jim the Genuis, me, and Surfore.
Swied the necessary design parameters for noseriding will make a board of that weight very difficult to turn. . . . noseriders turn off the tail by pivoting and lifting the nose out, no problem up to 50 pounds but at 70 pounds the leverage required goes way up. . . . . . and because the noserider has to be relatively parallel in the outline you won’t get much of a turn in just using the rail. . … . combine that with a low entry rocker for noseriding and a nose that can’t be lifted and you will have a board that pearls easily and won’t turn sufficiently.
I suggest that you make a really old school big wooden board i.e. forget about noseriding, it’s really a modern shortboard trick, and noseriders are really shortboards (historically and in terms of length and weight) , making those noseriders ultra heavy is not smart, but it is very smart for real longboards.
For really big heavy board designs look further back in time, this sort of shape, possibly with more rocker, works well for me anyway:
Benny those are only 25 to 50 pounds, Swied is talking about 70 pounds, which is a whiole different deal. … . those shapes you pictured will be dogs at 70 pounds.
I’m not sure who else around here has built and regularly surfed boards of that weight except for myself
Yes, but Roy, if you don’t want to answer the questions that were specifically asked, would you mind very much staying out of it so Swied & I and anyone else so inclined could have a conversation? If you don’t have anything to add to a thread about a 9-10’ wood noserider, than you’re just being disruptive.
No, no. Benny, if we look at the outlines and compare the physics of such boards with the altitudes obtained at faster than light speeds juxtaposed to the angle of attack to waves like pipe and kirra, combined with the theory of infinite universes which all add up to the sum of my parts, all things being equal, it would really be silly to even imply that 9 to 10 feet of noseriding capability is even possible under the parameters of the Geneva Convention, not to mention the fact that he said nothing about a GPS, flowmeter, jumbotron, Decepticon, or anything at all about reduced paralax flow as opposed to anular flow, vertical movement notwithstanding. Furthurmore, I didn’t see even one MSPaint diagram, so, Benny, you obviously have so little an idea as to what you are talking about it would make cavemen babies burst out in sidesplitting laughter not to mention the absurdities of whatever fin suggestion you might have, so just shut the heck up, would ya?
Benny my friend Swied was talking about a 70 pound board, (and he didn’t mention 9 to 10 feet, the length wasn’t specified !) and the boards you posted are way under that weight, so I could say the same to you, but I won’t because we are really just offering our ideas into the mix, and swied can then direct what happens next. . . .
It is still the case that I haven’t seen much evidence of people riding 70 pound boards, except Tom Wegener, Tom Stone and myself, and they don’t post here much.
I was just offering advice from having spent a lot of time riding 70 pound wooden boards: at that weight they get harder to pivot on the tail because it is hard to lift the nose, Swied is a few pounds heavier than I am so that will help somewhat, but the physics of it are obvious, no offense intended…
At that weight, and specifically intended for lined up point breaks I suggest that lots of planshape curve is a good idea, the rocker can be kept low, or not, as desired.
Also, a pintail helps the turning factor not only because the significant rail convergence angle continues far upthe board but also because less tail area makes it easier to sink the tail when turning.
If noseriding is the primary consideration then I am out of this conversation, it’s over to Swied.
May I ask if you have ridden many 70 pound boards yourself ?
No, Roy, I’ve not ridden any 70 lb boards. My comment about Jim choosing his balsa carefully was perhaps too subtle an encouragement to Swied to do so as well
I agree that a 40-50 lb board would noseride - and turn - better than a 70 lb one. You’re suggesting a totally different shape & surfing style than that about which Swied inquired; I’m merely suggesting an adjustment that might help him accomplish his specific goals, within the shape & style perameters he originally indicated.
Yes, and you are suggesting a totally different weight parameter from that which Swied originally indicated.
If Swied is really wanting exactly what he said: i.e a 70 pound noserider, then 9 to 10 feet is probably too short to get sufficient buoyancy without going ultra thick ( he didn’t specify a length, remember?).
So let’s just see what the man says… . . we are both just interested and trying to help, so it’s all good right ?
I’m open to all ideas right now. Both Benny and Roy makes some good points. I would also like to here from Jim. His previous posts have been a great source of information to me. Bill Thailkill is another person that has also helped me out a lot with design issues. I realize that everone has their own opinions. I feel bad sometimes when I don’t follow the advice of someone more experienced than me. Ultimately, I have to make a decision on the final design. I take in everyones comments, though, and learn from them. Keep 'em comming please.
I’m assuming that in order to turn I will need to run all the way to the back of the board to get it to stall and then make a big pivot. If the board is too heavy for my weight to lift the nose, then I guess I’ll be in trouble. Roy: How does one walk to be back on a board with such a narrow tail? Does that design enable you to do simple lean turns? I have heard that having a lot of tail rocker is good for nose riding. Wouldn’t that little bit of rocker in the tail give enough pivot to swing the board around?
I learned a lot about picking out wood from my first balsa project. I came up with the idea to go extra heavy because it is so completely different from what I normally ride. I have a collection of boards ranging in size from 6’ 2" up to 9’ 6". I think that I am heavy enough to throw my weight around, and turn a big tree truck of a board. I think it is kind of fun to push a heavy board through a turn. The heaviest board that I have ever riden, however, was about thirty pounds. Seventy pounds is a whole new league.
I was just reading in the new Free Surf magazine about Tom Stone’s papahe’enalu contest held at sunset beach this March on boards he crafted by hand out of solid wood.
Here’s a clip from his website describing this process:
The boards weighed about 100lbs and were surfed by some strong brave souls in a contest at Sunset Beach which Pohaku hopes to continue to prove the legends. I think Keli’i Mamala won the contest. If I can scan in the article I’ll post it later. Guy like Bruce Blankenfield and Brian Amona are big guys way bigger than your 200lbs. Blankenfield is one of the open ocean navigators of the Hokulea and Amona is one of the original Da Hui founders with Eddie Rothman.
As far as turning the real heavy old solid wood boards, from what I was told I believe alot of that was done by the dragging of ones foot off one rear side of the board or the other.
if doing a modern take a look at wegener’s version of an olo.
I’d buy a bunch of 16’ paulownia boards from that place in florida glue them up onto a blank and carve out a solid olo from than. probably need to buy 20 1"x4"x16’ to build a big enough piece of wood to carve
I’m assuming that in order to turn I will need to run all the way to the back of the board to get it to stall and then make a big pivot.
What happens with the widepoint way forward is that the rider is always on the tail, even if standing forward of the widepoint, that way he doesn’t have to run up and down the board, turns can be done from way forward using a rail turn without having to do a tail pivot while lifting the nose up
Quote:
If the board is too heavy for my weight to lift the nose, then I guess I’ll be in trouble. Roy: How does one walk to be back on a board with such a narrow tail? Does that design enable you to do simple lean turns?
No need to be right on the tail, and also the concept I’m talking about doesn’t require an extremely narrow tail or pintail, a narrowish squaretail is fine, the main point is to have a long gentle tail curve in the planshape rather than cramming all the tail curve into the last couple of feet
Some of those old Hawaiian wooden boards with the big squaretail (like the one Oneula posted above)and the widepoint way forward are similar in concept.
Yes simple lean turns, it’s still possible to lift the nose with a board of 70 pounds though, what happens that at first it lifts easily, then as one moves further back and tries to lift further it gets increasingly difficult as the fulcrum moves aft, this makes it hard to get the necessary nose up attitude and rail release for a full on tail pivot, but still allows the trim angle to be changed for a turn up to a point.
The idea is to match the turning area of the board with the amount that the nose can be lifted, because lifting the nose determines how much rail comes into play. . . . too much rail on a board with all the curve in the last couple of feet and the turn won’t happen properly, best to bring the curve forward to match the range of trim attitude that can be achieved.
Of course if you want to noseride then I’m not being much help. .
Below is a link to a solid balsa board I made a few years back. It ended up weighing in at 50lb’s. Having spent a little more time on it now I’ve found noseriding on it a little scary. It builds up so much momemtum, that by the time you head for the nose the board is flying, and seems to accelerate, not slow down when you get there. Having said that it is a hell of alot of fun to ride. Pivot turns like a dream. The only draw back is getting it to and from the water.
The rocker is pretty flat. Turning it is’nt a problem. But you do need to pivot turn it.
It has 50/50 rails. It also sits a little lower in the water than a foam board of the same dimentions would. But this dosen’t seem to be noticable when on a wave.
As you will see in the first photo it does have hips. This, I think helps it turn easier with the flatter rocker.
Thanks to everyone else for their comments and their PM’s. It seems like the consensus is that 70 pounds is just too heavy for what I want to do with the board. Seventy isn’t necessarily my goal. I was just thinking that it would be nice to make the board out of a heavier wood like redwood or cedar. Doing that would probably push the weight up to 70 pounds, so that’s why I used the number. If I stick to Balsa or Paulowina it looks like I have more design options.
I have some time to refine the design. Realistically I’m probably about two months away from making the first cuts. I have a few home related projects that I need to tackle first.
Thanks again for you responses, and keep posting those pictures. As always, I’ll post the pictures as my project progresses.
Rails were quite fine, in both the adjective & subjective sense. Thin, pinched even, but no hard edges, and closer to 60/40 in the front end, more like 50/50 in the tail, if I remember right. Belly under the nose, but not really a boat hull like a blended vee, but just a smooth fullness. They had fins that looked kind of like single keels, maybe 9" on the base and 7 or 8" deep?
