The land of sways is a great melting pot of design, techniques and the rest. It seems if you want to do a lis fish you go and make one or a Asymmetrical Ekstrom, simmons and so on and you go make one. But then there is a line which as for as i can see is very very blurry it gets crossed and people are all of a sudden saying he has copied him or there’s people lurking around “don’t show to much”.
Example: (hypothetical)
I know Ekstrom has patents. So i make an asymm tail say i was inspired by him then its ok, I have a mate that likes the board and wants one, i make him one his mate then has a go and so on. Do you guys then give Carl a call and say hey whats your Address i have a cheque i want to send you %5 royaltys for my board sales? (thats how much a lot of industrial designers get paid it can be as low as %2).
Other posts here have stated high lawyer fees and the rest associated with following up a patent copy and the fact of getting a patent is costly only to have someone change it by a small amount then it does not comply to the patent. ( maybe wrong chose of words or not correct terminology)
Then there is the other fact that a plan shape that looks good, flows and works. Just the other day i traced the out line of three fish type boards (not all mine and i don’t want to mention shapers names) one from the seventies, one that is called a modern fish (which is funny couse the original fish come out after modernism) and the other a hybrid fish proformance short board. Besids the inch or two difference in length the boards plan shapes where basically the same. Now i was surprised but then i was not relay. Just funny how separate shapers can say my shape this my shape that when it comes to a fish should they be saying my blend of bottom shape and fins is ideal not the plan shape?
I may be rambling but it seems that the shaper that is a doer and not a talker is generally the guy who get ripped off cause he is to busy in the bay doing what he does best. I think that sums up lis i may be wrong and ready for the cross fire. I aslo compere to materials say fiber flex all that use it put on the board the FF logo why don’t people put a big fat Lis on there fishs?
I know back then the back yard revolution was going on so why now are people getting hung up on design and who owns it when it is not in the history of surfing and its traditions…
I think Carls Patent has expired a long time ago. If you mean something like this… I used to SHAPE for Eaton. I was inspired by Will Jobsens early Twinzers, had a mid night “duh twin fin bonzer” thing. I started to adapt my boards to that idea. Eaton wanted nothing to do with it, even calling it “alberts baby” in some articals written about em. They started to work really good. I came up with a name from a tea I used to sell in a natural food store I owned. “Red hot zinger tea” I called the boards “Zingers”. Finally after much arm twisting Eaton tried one, it rode good, he started to make em, I was the shaper, designer. I developed the boards on my time at my expense. One day Eaton tells me that ANYTHING I come up with while i work for him is HIS. Now years after leaving Eaton he is selling surftech “zingers”. He gets the checks for MY board. Is that fair? Welcome to the surfboard buisiness.
If a board is hand shaped it can never be a true copy. Its just somebody's attempt to create a likeness. Immitation is the most sincere form of flattery. On the other hand you created a mould and made copies that way it would be a much different story. Florida boat manufacturers used to be notorious for pulling a mould off of a hull, changing it ever so slightly and going into production and there are now laws regarding this practice.
I’ve been very loosely involved with some people dealing with this and it’s a really hard thing to make black and white. The mini Sim is a classic example- design had been out there for anyone to try since the late 40s., and a few people experimented with similar designs, most of which really sucked. Kenvin and Elwell went to Bauguess with several years design knowledge from working with and surfing the bigger Simmons boards- originals and repros, and they made what is one the most fun boards to come down the pike in a long while. RK put the thing all over the internet and now just about every shaper does a ‘version’ the design, and many claim it without giving any recognition to the guys who invested a lot of time and money and effort into resurrecting it. Better yet many of the versions out there are absolutely horrible, shaped from a picture on the internet, no concept of all the subtlties in the design (I’ve ridden several different shapers interpretations and some were horrible) so the people riding them write off a totally functional design because someone went for a quick buck. At the same time that’s how design progresses- there’s been a few really good versions made and some shapers, mostly garage/small scale guys, have made some totally brilliant looking tweaks on the board. RK himself is already several steps down the road from the originals and the new tri and quad Simsters he’s playing with are insane, so he’s progressing too. I think the bottom line is there’s plenty of people who might be great shapers but have little ability or interest in the design side, and they will always just pick up on what other folks are doing and run with it. Someone will always do the Walmart version of a new idea so why fight it. I think it only gets problematic when you have ding-dongs claiming other peoples concepts as their own, or if you see somene ramp up production to a large money making scale- all of a sudden there’s a CI mini Sim or a Lost one- not cool. It’d be great if people did respect something as original as Carl’s idea and sent him a check if they built and sold one, but that’ll never happen- the mini Sim is really Bob Simmons’ idea anyway, so who do you send a check too? How about all the people building Liddle style hulls? Shouldn’t those checks just go to Greenough anyway? Hell, we should all just send a check to George- he’s responsible for a lot of what I love about surfing, and while I’m at it I should send some to Lis and crew, I’ve really enjoyed those fish over the years. In all seriousness, I think if you care, buy at least one board from an originator- that way you get the real deal and you support some guy who probably needs it. To add a bit of fuel to the fire, there’s an Ekstrom asym mini Sim in the works- copycats get those planers sharpened!
Are you going to send Simon Anderson money each time you do a thruster setup ?
Sure its “morally” wrong to mass produce a copied board,
But its also morally wrong to drive an SUV to the supermarket that you could walk to in 10 mins
, cheat on your taxs, copy music from your freinds cds(or god forbid, download it), employ the Sexy Secretary,
flirt when your married, wear your underwear two days in a row, etc
If you copy anything and sell in name as well, then the line is well and truly crossed, legally.
If designers want to claim or own aspects of design, then they need to do the corporate thing and do all the copyright, design reg, etc. Then they have right to chase the royalties. Otherwise they just have to accept the flattery of copying.
I always thought real surfers, designers, boardmakers were cool with the open exchange. Maybe the modern world, time, and age, has affected the surfers psych more than we'd like to accept.
Soul and sold are pretty similar words. How mixed up are they?
What blows my mind is the lack of personal identity in this game… Like many stated above, nobody (generalizing) takes the initiative to be unique or do what they are into. Everybody scours the internet, trade show or glass shops to get the ideas of the year to go home and try to replicate. This does make me less likely to share on the internet, I don’t want to race to get it in the surf shops before the others get it there.
Ace thats a bummer it seams like it happend a few years ago and not much can be done. Maybe the positive way to go would be with Mako Immitation is the most sincere form of flattery.
Also very noble of you to state eaton as an influence maybe nice if he gave the same or maybe he does but my quick search did not find anything. I would love to se your version.
Consafos. The sim and mini sim is a great example maybe i should have used that one. Wow there are some followers all round the world doing there versions of it. But RK and the gang have probably been the biggest developers of it and you can say its not there design. But they have interpreted it and offer the closest thing i would say to Bobs original mini sims and also state where it has come from and go as far as geting the mans story out there. But then they have put so much time into the testing of the simimsters and other models that you could say they have gone on to develop there own beasts (a copy of these boards would be a rip off Hydrodynamica). Am I right by saying that it also seems that on the other hand RK and gang are pretty happy that it has been un earthed so to speak and a lot of other people are enjoying the use of alternative craft. If i was to buy one i would go for one of Joe’s because of the reason that his development follows on from Bob and it is as close to the real deal as posable. But like buying design people are naive it looks like a Barcelona chair and it is a good price i will buy it they dont look to se the made in china sticker on the bottom.
There are some incredible shapers out there that shape what you want but when it comes to innovation and design all they can do is copy instead of stating there influences to me they may as well stick made in china on the bottom like the rip off barcelona chair.
Or is it that all has been done so it is getting harder to be an individual especially when you have to make money and all you get all day is no i dont want that i want what the pros are riding. Must also be frustrating from the shapers point of view.
if you respect you craft respect your lineage thats probably what i am saying if you take away all the bla bla i have written.
I also thought that there was the open thing compare and contrasting each others design but reading some of the different forums were people can be anonymous the claws seem to come out.