Bottom Contours - Less Is More

The flow of water under a surfboard has a large rail-to-rail component. This is somewhat contrary to how most envision the flow of water under a surfboard to be, which is roughly a nose-to-tail flow. This nose-to-tail view of flow is reflected in what many shapers and surfers believe can be accomplished with bottom contours. Few look at a surfboard and ask what might happen if water is flowing at an angle across the bottom –i.e. with a rail-to-rail directional component.

Asymmetric designs, with respect to the stringer, have been and continue to be made, but remain rare. This is understandable given that few surfers want to lock themselves into going left or right, or any one thing in particular on a wave. Locking oneself into a given flow pattern would seem to require to the same considerations. Given the dynamic nature of the sport, flow patterns under the board can be expected to, and do change quite often (during a ride) and optimizing the bottom contours of a board (or any other aspect of board design) to fit one particular flow pattern requires caution. Though this is not to say that all bottom contours should be avoided.

Under the Board

Though there are maneuvers in surfing which are comparable to those of a sled or that of downhill skiing, most surfing maneuvers are at a angle to the face of the wave – i.e. are somewhat perpendicular to the flow of water up the face of the wave; a sled maneuver is parallel to the surface. Gravity is, of course important; but not so much as a source of energy while surfing. Gravity and the fin system allows the surfer to present the bottom of his board to the flow of water in a wave in a manner roughly analogous to the way a mast and keel allows the sailor to present his sail to the wind. Or to put it another way, gravity is used as a counter force against the force generated by the impact of the flow of water up the face of the wave. And like sailboats, more often than not, the real value of the sail/keel system is being able to tack – i.e. run in directions other than ‘with the wind’.

Propulsion in surfing comes from the flow of water rushing up the face of the wave. In particular, the kinetic energy of surfing comes from the transformation of flow energy of the water rushing up the face of the wave, and the transformation occurs at the bottom of the board. The bottom of the board redirects the flow and in doing so taps some of the kinetic energy of the flow, which is transferred to the kinetic of the surfboard (and surfer.)

Bottom contours, by their very design will modify the characteristics of the flow under the board - its what they do. But bottom contours are fixed, so to make them work they must be presented to the flow in the correct way. This is especially true for extreme bottom contours like deep triple concaves. In fact, if extreme enough, the bottom contours will do the ‘surfing’ for you, that is you will have to fight to do anything other than whatever it was the bottom contour was designed to do. (The Bonzer is a good example of extreme bottom contours, and their consequences –i.e. a Bonzer has a way of surfing you, as opposed to you surfing it.)

Planing is about the best dynamic description of what is going on under a surfboard when surfing. The water rushing up the face impacts the bottom and is then be redirected in some way. This is similar to the more familiar notion of planing in motorboats. In motorboats however, the means of forward propulsion is via an engine, nevertheless, the water impacting the bottom lifts the boat. When surfing, because of the unique relationship (angles) between the flow and the bottom of the surfboard, part of this lift can be translated into ’forward’ propulsion. The impact force is usually quite palpable as a peak area or point of maximum force. This is especially true for shortboards. Shortboarders usually place their forward foot on or a little ahead of it, their rear foot behind it. In a way, shortboards literally ‘surf’ it – they definitely know when they’ve lost it.

In longboards, the peak area is much more diffuse –i.e. spread out over a larger area, and it also migrates more than in shortboarding. The actual position of this peak area being a function of the flow and bottom presentation. Longboarders, if they’re so inclined, can often follow this area up and down their surfboard by ‘walking the board.’ In shortboards, if the center migrates, the general strategy is to shift weight, resulting in some maneuver to recapture the center of force, though the occasional (small) change of position often helps. Reorienting the board’s direction with respect to the flow also helps to capture or recapture flow, in both shortboarding and longboarding. The reorientation, or re presenting the bottom, usually amounts to exposing less surface area to the flow. (Fin presentation aside.)

Unlike shortboards, which have relatively limited amount of surface area to expose to the flow, a longboard has far more, and more surface area means more impact, which can mean more power generation. Though shortboards accelerate better than longboards, longboards can generate far more power, e.g. achieve a greater velocity.

Once the flow has impacted the bottom of the board, its has to be removed to make way for new fresh flow. The motion of the board helps, but chances are if not removed fast enough, some of the energy of the new flow will go towards removing the ‘spent’ flow, or exhausted flow. Simply put, you want to get rid of the exhausted flow as fast as possible, in most cases –i.e. you don’t want anything getting in its way, and just about anything other than nothing will.

Good surfboard design is about creating a platform for the surfer that will enable him to capture new flow and shed exhausted flow as rapidly as possible. and in a controlled way. Not surprisingly, the less there is on the bottom, the more this seems to be the case.

cool

very well thought out

i think i agree

will take a while to digest!

i like flat bottoms as well.

and rotating fins are starting to make a lot of sense.

now talk to me about surfaces and surface tension and surface drag, on a micro level

You have received a B- on your summer project. Without proper photos and drawings you will be receiving a failing grade on the lab portion of the class. Passing the lab is required for graduation. Please report to Professor Chipfish61 for surf photo 101 training. At the tutoring center DOC can help you with your drawings.

Thank you

Professor Stingray

(just kidding ,interesting read)

KCasey:

Very nice post. When I visualize (in my head, not with computer aids) water flow across the bottom of a surfboard, I usually see it at a 45-deg. angle to the stringer. I’ve used this concept since reading an article on surfboard hydrodynamics in Surfer (or Surfing, it’s been a long time) in the late 60’s. I’ve long since given up trying to drum this through the heads of most of my fellow surfers (excluding Swaylockians, of course:) They insist on visualizing water flow limited to parallel to the stringer and likely always will.

-Samiam

KCasey

Welcome back.

(less is more)

Very Interesting read?

However what kind of surfing are you talking about?

Average Joe?

Local ripper?

Touring Pro?

Take a board that has a flat bottom 6’0 x 18.25" x 2.15" (11" nose 14" tail)

Let a Pro ride it. He will tell you it sucks! Let Average Joe ride it. He will tell you nice board!

Take the same board put single barrel concave (settle) down the center of the board starting 12" to 14" from the nose. 6" before you get to the front of the fins transition the single to a double (slightly deeper) through the inside of the fins careful not to disturb the placement areas of the fins.

Let Average Joe ride it. He will tell you this board is easier to turn, WOW!

Now let a Pro ride it. He will tell you, “I’m putting this one on ice for my next contest”.

Stingray makes a good point: LAB WORK!

The customer decides what works for them. Have you seen the bottom contours of Andy Irons boards? Mick Fanning? Parko? Tell them to ride a flat bottom and see their reaction.

I have applied this to guns for Puerto, Slab style breaks in OZ, Todo Santos Tow Boards including Indo Mini Guns. All positive responses.

This is my take on bottom shaping. Do what you like. We all have our own way and we don’t always agree. However I respect your opinion.

See Photo of HB’s Shaun Ward at Lowers on a single to double concave.

Some Notes On Propulsion:

Some preliminaries.

What actually happens under a surfboard is likely to be fairly complex; actually a more appropriate term would be chaotic. Perhaps some day, somebody will develop a theory or theories using fluid dynamics to explain what is going on under a surfboard while surfing, but I doubt it. I suspect if there was any money to be made in doing so, a clever engineer might take the time to develop a sort of a ‘bulk’ treatment, similar to a Reynolds Transport Theorem approach, which by the way, mixed with a little empirical date, has been the approach taken by many marine engineers in analyzing planing in motorboats. But even if such a treatment was developed, its likely that its application would something best described as ‘principle’ or ‘rule’ driven. For example, ‘Wood is soft, so don’t hit it so hard with the hammer, or it will dent.’ – easy to appreciate, but difficult to quantify. Nevertheless, what a set of general principles or rules might offer is a sense of how significant a given effect is likely to be –i.e. a sense of the magnitude of the forces involved. Towards this end, and keeping in mind there still isn’t any money to be made here, what are some of those rules? The possible mechanisms of propulsion seem to be a good place to start.

Propulsion

As far as I am aware, most surfboards don’t come with an independent source of propulsion. (Excluding the surfer of course, but this isn’t about paddling.) So, given that they move and there motion changes a lot, and Newton made it clear that changing motion requires a force, a surfboard’s propulsion is coming from somewhere or something. Two options immediately present themselves: the slope of the wave face and gravity, a sort of a skiing or sled effect; or something else about the wave, possibly also involving gravity.

Surfboard as Toboggan?

During a ‘drop’ a surfboard is definitely being used as a sled or ski –i.e. your falling, and gravity makes it so. However when you’re taking a little shack time, or for a longboarder, possibly putting a few piggies over the nose, its more than likely you’re ‘trimming.’ Some see trimming as just a rapid alternation between skiing and being ‘ski-lifted’ –i.e. you fall (down the wave face) and then you’re lifted (by the wave), all in very rapid succession, so rapid it looks like your staying in one place. Arguably, the notion is not totally unreasonable.

Pumping, when surfers seem to go up and down on a wave, is a standard technique for gaining some speed. So, I guess if you did it fast enough, so fast that the actual oscillation is no longer apparent, you’d appear to be doing nothing but trimming. (If this is the case, it would seem to be an argument for the use of Crack in the sport, so perhaps there is money to be made? This might be worth addressing in another post.)

However, I am not one of these people (Crack use aside.) Whereas, I believe the sled principle is used a lot in surfing, I do not believe it is used during trimming as a means of propulsion.

Surfboard as Anti-War Protestor?

Huh?

Well, consider you’re an anti-war protester and you show up in your Birkenstocks wearing your camel pack at some big anti-war rally. Of course the police are there too, but unlike you they’re wear boots and their water comes from a fire hose, which they seem to be turning your way.

The water hits you, and you fly back, leaving your Birkenstocks where you last stood. You get up to retrieve your expensive sandals and once again the authorities turn the hose your way. Ahhh, but you’re clever little liberal deadbeat and rotate your upper body to get out of its way. Well, maybe clever but not quick enough and the jet glances your chest. As a result you’re shot back again, but this time at an angle, in fact you notice that you go one way and the jet, after impacting your chest goes the other way. Bruised and confident that Mom and Dad will send you some money for some new Birkenstocks, you split, but not before you realize that “Of course, surfing isn’t sleigh riding at all, its all so clear now. I guess in the end, it is best that the Republicans control the House, Senate, Presidency, and Supreme Court. God Bless, America!” You return home and immediately apply to a combined MBA and Masters in Theology program. …. I seemed to have lost my place… oh yeah… hoses, water jets…)

The accompanying diagram may help. Its overly simplistic, but it illustrates the major source of propulsion in surfing, especially when trimming, but not only when trimming (in the formal sense of the term.)

You may not feel the diagram adequately explains how you ‘get to go down the line’ while surfing. It’s a matter of angles, -i.e. bottom presentation to the flow of water up the face of the wave. Experiment with your own plank, (or show up at a protest), you find you can basically get the plank (or your body) to go off in just about any direction other than from which the jet of water is coming.

So, what about gravity? Again, referring to the diagram, gravity holds the block and plank in the flow, in surfing it holds the surfer in the flow, the flow of water up the face of the wave.

The point is that propulsion comes from the flow though its impact on the bottom of the board. Once it impacts the board its done is job, and getting rid of it becomes the issue. After its done its job its depleted or exhausted, and its takes energy to remove it, sadly that energy has to come from somewhere –i.e. from new fresh flow. Good design minimizes the exchange –i.e. reduces the amount required to remove exhausted flow.

Can’t, mainly because I’m not sure of the role they play -i.e. is this significant? It is my impression that, for turbulent or chaotic flows, such factors, unless the flow is small, aren’t critical (at least beyond some point, which is not the case with surface finishes used in surfing, unless you want to start finishing with fur or something like that.)

Nevertheless, I want to know. So, if you have some arguement, or evidence share it (please) or direct me to it (also, please.)

Thanks.

Kevin

If your point is that less of me is more, you’re not alone, even I’d have to agree with that.

Anyway, thanks(?)

Kevin

Very well said, these things are hard to explain with words only, but you did a good job!

I try to shape boards while thinking of the flow of water too

I think a good way to look at the flow of water is seeing the board as the biggest fin under your feet, the angle of flow under the board varies with the moves you make, sometimes the flow is almost from nose to tail, like in high speed bottomturns, sometimes from rail to rail, like in a off the lipp. Check the spray in photo’s for the direction of flow. The spray is the waste water of the flow. The foil of the board is a combination of rocker and concave and or V. The deck and rails also are part of this foil that deflects water to gain energy from it. Noseriding is a move where the top and bottom work together as a fin providing lift and forward motion. The skeg-fin only keeps the tail from overtaking the nose.

An asymmetric foil is already there in double concave boards, because at high speeds only half the bottom touches the water, the spray missing the second halve or even hitting it again getting deflected even more.

I think the boards giving the most horizontal and backward directed spray in the bottomturns are most effective, they keep their speed or even generate more speed from it.

I don’t want to say what bottom shape is better, but I say that what the board does to the waterflow, that is coming to the board, is generating the energy. The direction of the force is contrary to the direction of the spray. The more water you move, the more energy

I hope this helps people shape and surf better, just look at the shape the way the water does…

Enjoy

Soul

Hi Kevin,

You’re hilarious!! I did a spit take on “the use of crack in surfing”. Anyways, I totally agree with your line of thinking. I never thought about getting rid of “old” flow before. But I think that surfboard shapers/designers compromise in terms of why they use concaves or bottom contours. I think that they would give up speed down the face of the wave for increased tail lift for small wave boards and give up tail lift and increase greater control and speed for guns. So I think you’re right about trying to get rid of old flow for speed but if you want your tail raised and keep your board afloat keeping the energy of the old flow underneath you for as long as you can is what you want.

Cheers,

Rio

It all sounds good !!!

…until you head out at pipe on a large day…then the new inventions usually end up being part of the reef.

Until you consider that the surfaces presenting laterally to oncoming water are the lateral lift and control surfaces.

That concaved edges allow greater penetration of the rail, grab more water, and usefully redirect the focus of lift by directing flow at the nadir of the concave.

That the fastest board isn’t at all the one that surfs (when you include lateral maneuvers, turns and pumps for speed) best.

And “his” idea is already part of the reality of concaved boards, otherwise they’d have 1.5 inch deep concaves.

Also fun is to imagine subtracting gravity from a surfer surfing an actual wave.

As far as kcasey’s injection of crackpot politics, crack, and cranky Republicanism, that all makes sense!

Hey KCasey,

Rather than going brainiac and try attempting to discuss surfboard and wave dynamic theroy with you, as it would be and excercize in futility, I prefer to stand on the beach momentarily observing how you surf the wave of fluid mechanics you wish to ride. You finish your first wave by saying, “Given the dynamic nature of the sport, flow patterns under the board can be expected to, and do change quite often (during a ride) and optimizing the bottom contours of a board (or any other aspect of board design) to fit one particular flow pattern requires caution. Though this is not to say that all bottom contours should be avoided.” Those experienced in world of surfcraft, i.e. shaper/surfers simply don’t carry on such rhetoric with a huge internal controdiction.

A surfboard and fin foiling is about one thing. It is contouring. Sorry buddy, you need some more sessions to meet the challenge. In this line-up you can’t throw spray off the lip like Slater surfing stinkbug on a foamy.

With this said and knowing you’re willing to pay your dues in the line-up. Be sure you have a few sessions with Wil Jobson, he’s a very gracious fellow surfer can speak in theroetical terms very eloquently and generally has the time to sort through such matters with those who have genuine interest. I’m sure you find yourself both entertained and informed simply because Wil is one of the few true masters of fluid mechanics applied to surfing performance who can speak at lenght on the subject. You can find him at the Strive surfboard factory on the west side of Santa Cruz.

For me the spouts of theory on surfboard performance are much like Stretch’s cigar smoke and Mikas’s glass work, very ethereal and somewhat poisonous, but strangely attactive.

Gone Surfin, Rich

No, no, Kevin that was not my point, it was just this - welcome back.

My post was short = “less” words

just putting your caption into action.

Wasn’t meant to be a dig in any way.

Keith

PS I make a lot of flat bottomed boards.

Halcyon, Cutaway side fins… Cool!

Concaves generally causes spinouts/instability in waves with guts.

Plus cause inconsistencies in rides when the water surface is uneven.Not to mention the increased dead time (like restarting after duck diving thru/under a wave.).

NIZZZZE FINS!

Wish there where some waves in Holland too, Maybe tomorrow… …

Could I test may new concave fish!

Soul

If you’ve got the choice between me or a true journeyman to build your board, go with the journeyman - hell, I would, in fact that isn’t even a choice.

But this isn’t the point, in fact I state that at best the most surfing can only hope for are basic principles or rules, the trick is to have some idea what they are, and then shape with them in mind. The difference between this approach and pure experience ( -i.e. sort of knowing what you know, but having no real understanding as to why it works) is that, the former approach has a better chance of leading to something truly new, not to mention getting rid of stuff that may really not be working (in general), or wasting a lot of time trying to extend some wrong idea.

My whole opinion of board design changed one day when I watched skimboarders slip into waves, and surf them. Skimboards are bottoms - a rail on a skimboard is where the bottom ends, as is the tail. Prior to the experience, this was not the way I had been thinking about surfboards. Like many (perhaps not you), I saw surfboards as a bunch of components somehow blended together - the way customers sort of ‘component shop’ for a board, “I want a really pointy nose, oh, yeah some nose rocker, oou, oou some nose concave too, and I’ve got to have a triple concave, with wings, yeah I need wings, and dude, a swallow tail, definitately a swallow tail. Oh, yeah, flip the tail, that just looks cool. And maybe a little fishy too, so I can surf small days.” These ‘components’ don’t work that way, and its not my impression that enough appreciate this simple fact. (That was an exaggeration. If someone actually did ask for all those things, they would, in my opinion deseve to get them, so I’d recomment giving it to them, prepaid in full of course.)

Sometimes wings are called for, possibly because if you continue your rail curve back any further, you’re going to wind up with to much bottom - after its already done its job (spent flow, time to start sheding it?) Same for a swallow tail, same for a lot of design choices. All of a sudden your repencilling your rear rail lines to get a certain tail width, which for whatever reasons you’ve decided on a head of time. In my opinion the preference should be towards letting the rails end, ‘the flow does this and that’ so the rails end here, “there!, that’s your tail”; the rail curvature being far more important than the tail. The component should not be allowed to determine the shape; purpose and conditions of use should. Old stuff, yet easy to forget. Component shopping is a plague, your design risks becoming a collection of components with the hope that, in the end, the whole will at least manage to be a sum of its parts - which it rarely is. How do you know what shape fits purpose or conditions, experience is critical, but some basic principles of how a surfboard operates is also critical. Knowing basic principles also allows you to trouble shoot. It also helps to know when certain design features can be extended to accomplish a given objective. (That was a bit of a strawman argument. I suspect there a few shapers who not even entertain making such freakish blends. Of course that begs the question as to who is making them, and where the people that made them got the name brand logos?)

For me, the more experience I acquire, the more I talk to people (and watch which board they use the most) and the more I analyze things dynamically, the less I want happening on the bottom - that was the point of the thread.

Do I hope to change the way things are done by writting my nonsense? No. It’s a forum. Convince me otherwise, please. Or better, please ask your friend to comment, or if he already has, direct me to where he has. Hell, if he’s got something more than basic principles -i.e. practical formulas, I want to see them (and play with them.) If he thinks what I written is nonsense, I would love to know why, please ask him to share.

Kevin