bottom rail bands and tail blends

[surf3184]

newbie here.

so im still having problems with two areas on the bottom rails. the first is that the rails (except for the tail) are much too round. boards i have studied have a crisp edge then go into the rail contour. i have been using various fred tools (60, 45, 30 degrees, etc) is there a step i can take to keep that crisp edge before rolling into the rail?

my next problem is the blend into the tail. i stop using the fred tools when i get to where i want to keep that crisp edge for the tail. however it results in a bump in the outline. any tips for getting a nice blend and outline while keeping that tail crisp?

[maxmercy]

I think I can answer your question. Check out this diagram, with the blank bottom side up.

The blue and red lines are how your fred tools cut. by playing with how far you cut in, you can see that you can make the bottom rail many different shapes. The diagram shows even cuts with a 30 degree fred held on the rail. and then held on the deck (or a 30 degree and 60 degree fred). You can see that when you run dragon skin or sanding screen on this to blend it, you get a round bottom rail. By moving the blue and red lines, and imagining how the sanding screen will blend things, you can get different tucked under edge profiles.

As for your outline changing, that should not happen if you are going about things a certain way. Check out this diagram:

You can see the blank as before with the fred cuts on the bottom, and I added rail bands for the deck (3 of them). there should always be some area throughout the rail that does not get touched, the yellow area above. That’s what keeps your outline true when doing rail bands/bevels. So, leave some of the original outline cut left, and you will not change your outline.

Does this help?

JSS

[surf3184]

the outline part is golden, i think i may have been using the fred down into the rail too much. my issue is going to be the length of the blade, because i basically affixed a surform blade to a cut 2X4 cut at various angles. at the tail, its long enough to take foam off the tail. i think i can add a riser so that it wont reach that mid point as noted in your bottom diagram.

however, using the fred on the hips-nose, is sounds kind of like what im doing, however i just realized another step i have been doing that is probably my demise---- what i have been doing is using my mini surform by hand to blend it the bottom rail, and therefore losing that edge.

one more thing, is there any place i can see some diagrams of tucked and other various rail types?

thanks for the help, really.

jz

[maxmercy]

Here are 2 great places to see what tucked vs 50/50 vs whatever rails are out there:

http://www.naturalcurvesboards.com/html/design.html

http://www.harboursurfboards.com/info_design.html - also, on Harbour’s ‘surfboards’ page, click on the ‘see which xxxx is right for you’ links and you get an idea of cross sections for the different boards.

And this is a great resource as well, incredible variety of boards, almost the whole spectrum and why they are designed that way:

http://www.surfline.com/mag/features/anatomy/anatomy_flash.html

About your losing the edge with the small surform, a way to get your tucked edge back after you blend the rail with sandpapaer, screen or ‘dragon skin’, is to blend the rail first, then sand with the same grit on the bottom with a flat sanding block, you get a sharper ‘break’ defined where the rail meets the bottom, by using the sanding block…

Here’s a diagram:

Does that make sense? Kind of a quick fix, but it may work for this time… You can also build up an edgebead with your hotcoat and shape it sharper during glassing…

JSS

[surf3184]

thus far, the fix with the hotcoat has been my savior, but i think i just had one of those ‘oh, duh!’ moments. cant wake uptommorow and hit the bay…

[johnmellor]

Hi -

I don’t use a “Fred” tool when I’m doing tucked edges and such. It’s a Parmenter/JC thing.

I do make every effort to get the bottom and outline square and true before 98% final shaping the bottom contours. I spend a lot of time on my templates and run a pencil along the edge to draw my template. I cut the template out and plane/block sand (or whatever) to the line.

Once everything is square and the bottom contours are in place, I take a surform, or sanding block, or planer and start fading in my tuck along the bottom edge. I generally find a spot… say in front of the side fins, and start fading in a bevel. I leave the area behind the fins as sharp as possible. Depending on the board, the tuck fades from zero in front of the side fins to 3/4" (or so) near the center.

Once my rough bevel is cut, I determine where my rail apex will be and how it will transition from tail to nose. I don’t make marks but it doesn’t hurt to pencil in some reference points.

Once I’m happy with the bottom tuck, I shape the deck crown and upper part of the rails. Anyway, by gradually “knocking off the corners” of the bevels, it all comes together at the apex. I try to leave the apex alone as I fade the top and bottom bands in with a soft (upholstery foam) sanding pad and drywall screen. Hitting the apex too much will alter your template. Ideally, your final strokes on the bottom will meet your final strokes on the deck AT the apex.

Taken step by step it falls in to place quite naturally. Like many things, it’s just a process.

Hope that makes sense.

[surf3184]

i think i can visualize your process. but one issue is that i use EPS and that doenst give that smooth feel of PU. ive been using a surform and a T-square to take my outline down to my template line, then the fred on the deck, then bottom.

i think i may try to combine what you and max mercy (above post) have said. i dont think i am comfortable enough going completely freehand yet without the freds.

[MikeDaniel]

EPS responds well to the planer; why use anything else for your rail bands?

The planer cuts the truest lines, is far more accurate, and it’s faster. The more

of your board you do with the planer the better.

Don’t ever scrub at spots on the rail with any tool. If you have a blending problem,

lightly block all the bands through the area or use your back-to-back sandpaper in

the crease of your hand in the lengthways mode. Re-sanding the bottom to bring in

the edge is good advice also.

Mike

[surf3184]

well the simple answer to that is because i do not know how. ive seen it done in shaping vids, but it sure does seem like those guys know what they are doing…nah i mean?

in any case, is that for the bottom too? what about the tail blending? im not even sure if my planer is able to be angled at accurate degrees (such as with, say, a circular saw), which would mean ive got to hold it at the right angle perfectly, the wrong angle being bye-bye-beauty.

believe me, it sounds like a wonderful, easy (if properly done) and certainly time saving method, but can you shed some light on the technique?

ps-im really focused on tucked rails.

[MikeDaniel]

EPS is very cheap. Just take the planer and practice. I was scared to death of the thing

the first time I touched one too, btw. But you’re never going to learn to use the planer

for all of it’s applications if you don’t even try.

Someone who shapes way better than me told me all this along time ago(except the EPS

part). I’m glad he did, and I’m just passimg the advice along. He had to keep hammerin’

on me about the use of ‘‘crutch’’ tools for a long time, but I finally saw the light.

Anyway, have fun and enjoy the learning.

While we’re on this subject, what does everyone use for the final tuning/finish on EPS rails?

I’ve found these small flexy 120 pads that almost polish an EPS rail, and they’re at Lowes

and HD. I’ve made all kinds of little gizmos for this, but found nothing that works better, especially

for the last tune-up on the transition area being discussed here.

Mike

[johnmellor]

Hi Mike -

Each to his own on the final touches.

I’ve used one of those flexible auto body sanding tools with two handles and clips to hold the sandpaper. I put some upholstery foam and a sanding screen in there and it works OK for most of my final sanding.

For edges and rail apex I take the foam and screen off the auto body tool and hold them together by the edges… sometimes just the screen held by the edges and dragged along the apex curves.

[MikeDaniel]

To each his own is right. I absolutely loathe using screen on EPS. It just catches and grabs

and chunks(for me). I pretty much have a whole new set of hand abrasives for EPS, all of

which I fabricated except for the little finish pads. I’m shaping shortboards with some very thin

rails in spots that demand some weird tools.

Mike

[reverb]

…I can add that first do the bottom rail bands, then the biggers on the deck

mark a dot in the rail 18 or up (depend on the lenght of the shape)

after you pass the planer, you ve got the bands to this point (from there to the tail is square for now)

to do the last bands (blending) keep shallower passes and work with the shape canted (in the U of your racks)

until you hit the mark go turning the depht adjustement to zero

with this, the lights and the canted position, you can see the lines flow

[theboys]

hey,

max mercy’s post is the goods, but I think there is one area that you will still struggle with so far as an ‘outline bump’ is concerned.

I’m sensitive to your problem because I’ve experienced exactly the same thing on the few boards I’ve shaped. I didn’t get my mind around how to fix it until I was kindly apprenticed by a professional shaper in a good work space.

Basically, I see the bump problem in this way:

1. I agree the yellow line from max’s illustration is the ‘true’ outline of the board, i.e. the planeshape at the out edge.

2. By cutting in small bands on the bottom of the board, you effectively change the ouline of the bottom plane–it becomes narrower and progressively so depending on the taper of your tucked edge cuts

3. If you simply use the fred tool to cut uniform bands all the way up the ‘hard’ point, you will create an abrupt ‘jump’ in the planshape of the bottom plane. The bottom planshape in the hard tail area will correspond to the true outline–max’s yellow line, while the bottom planshape in the fore section of the board will correspond to the point at which max’s red line interests the bottom.

If these two outlines are not tapered together effectively then there will be a little ‘jump’ in the neighborhood of 1/8’’ or worse at the hard tail transition.

The fix? Taper them effectively…

My kind teacher stood with me at the tail of the board looking toward the nose. He pointed out the prominent lines created by our edge cuts as revealed by the side lighting. (This was an eps blank by the way). He pointed out the line formed by the intersection of the lower bevel (red line) and the bottom of the board. He then said “watch the lines” as made a slight brush with the surform (yikes planer purists don’t attack please) and blended that bottom line so it flowed nicely into the hard tail outline. The new bottom outline and the true outline were slightly different, but complemented one another and each flowed nicely into the tail. It was pretty cool.

I’ve tried to implement this approach with some success, particularly on my most recent shape. As an aside–he did not fred the tucked edge, but rather, free handed it with the surform. (He also taught me how to cut the deck side rail bands with the planer which has made a huge difference for me.)

I hope this explanation makes sense and is not misleading. Real shapers–feel free to give me the beat down if I’m off base here.

hunter

[MikeDaniel]

Hey boys, no beat-down intended. But let me tell you about how my teacher would

take his planer, set on zero, and go over my ‘‘finished’’ surform rail bands and make

me listen to the planer hit the high spots. The planer’s just the best tool for the job.

Mike

[theboys]

hey Mike…

I’m with you. I’m just like the rest of the 20 board and under brigade… a bit scared of the contraption. My buddy gives me heaps of crap about not using the planer enough, it’s a common theme.

It probably doesn’t help that I’ve got a hardware store planer that cuts pretty darn aggressively on zero–hehe.

I’ve gotten pretty bold lately on rockers, rail, bands, foiling and such using it. My confidence level is building.

surform aside… does my other explanation make sense? I suppose it’s pretty much what John Mellor said.

hunter

[maxmercy]

Hey Surf,

I know what you mean about using the planer. After making hotwiring templates, outline templates, hotwiring the rocker, hotwiring down the longside of the blank for stringers, gluing and clamping in the stringer(s), leveling the blank with a large sanding block so foam and stringers are even and the deck is parallele to the bottom, using the router to cut and get the outline perfectly square to deck and bottom, and limited by your ability to shape a template, after all that, I feel very apprehensive cranking my planer on and just going to town, considering all the work that has gone into the blank thus far…

So, what I do to get planer practice is shape ‘mini’ surfboards with the planer, using the offcuts of the EPS. The minis end up around 2 1/2 to 4 feet long, and you get a chance to freehand shape, without major consequences. I’ve even glassed a few of these minis for practice (I needed it). One of them currently does duty as a way-too-light skimboard, and another as an overfinned paipo (soon to change when I purchase an angle grinder).

My main problem is ‘visualizing’ how the railbands will/are supposed to look to get the shape I want. It is a GIANT crutch, and I don’t feel like shaping many boards and having them not come out the way I want in order to get this skill. So, I do it like so…

I plan all of my rail band cuts like this:

The angles of the bands are the same for each profile, but they vary in depth into the blank from nose to tail, so I use a spreadsheet to morph one profile into the next smoothly. It spits out tons of measurements, and I just plot the points on the blank, connect the dots with masking or strapping tape (better), and then start with the planer, but when I get close to the tape, break out the trusty surform or sanding block to hit the tape more carefully. Peel tape, and boom, both sides are identical to eachother, and the bevel is just right. Once you finish cutting in all the bevels/bands, all you have to do is finish sand and they blend into one another hopefully to the shape you wanted.

Doing things this way, I have learned TONS about what different railband shapes will become when finish sanded, and I am almost to the point where I might be able to let go of the ‘crutch’, but not yet… It is so convenient knowing that what you wanted to get, you actually end up with, almost perfectly, and the same on either side. It takes forever to plot all the points, but the peace of mind knowing that the shape will be what you had in your mind is why I put up with the hassle of putting almost 300 dots on the board, measured to the milimeter.

Again, not for everyone, and about as big a crutch as you can get. But since I only make 5 or so boards a year (total garage hack), the system works great for me, and I like knowing that what I want is what I get, unless I screw it up… It’s basically to idiot-proof my process and uncoordinated hands, a poor-man’s ‘shaping machine’, if you will…

JSS

[surf3184]

i truly do appreciate everyone’s input. ive never had so much interest in a topic i started:)

so here’s my deal. what i have done is taken a few sections of 2X4 studs and made some reverse fred tool-like wedges without the surform blade. can anyone guess what for? to rest my planer at the angles i need to and let it ride!! than im going to use the sand-down method stated in N-posts above to get my crisp tucked rail.

AND…AND…!!!i have been meaning to do something with these huge cut-off parts of my EPS block and left-over poplar from my stringers. dare i say it? im making a fucking body board!! (please pardon my french) but if i woulda told myslef 5 years ago i was saying that, i would punched myself then. and im gonna put tucked rails, and some side bites, hell i might just make the damn thing a with a 10" soul arch. then im gonna ride it on those days where its throwin too hard hard for me to get tubed backside…scratch that last part…ill post a few pics in a few weeks.

i truly do love all of you. ask my wife…

[MikeDaniel]

To address your question about whether the ‘‘rest of your explanation makes sense’’,

it absolutely does. But it begs the question, why use a tool that’s going to create

bumps that you’re going to have to fair out? Why not just use a tool that’s going to

cut a clean line in the first place? Just trying to help.

Mike

[maxmercy]

Stoked for you, bro. Definitely hook us up w/ some pics when you get the chance…

Have fun!

JSS