bouncing off of the rocks

General Discussion
1

A question generated by the new dent and crack under the nose my new long board this morning.

What materials would you choose for a board to maximize resistance to dents?

(not deck pressure dents, ones on the bottom)

I usually do a daily early DP at a rocky beach break near my home, and I’m always denting up the bottom of my boards.

(I know, don’t hit the rocks). I try. But I sometimes, at low tide, I don’t see one.

Or I get greedy, stay on the wave too long and loose my board.

(this happens more when I wear a leash than without.)

After about 2 years of use, all my boards end up badly dented.

This one was made from a very lightly shaped Clark supergreen blank with standard triple 6 poly glassing and gloss.

Pretty strong I would think, but only 6 months old and already no longer beautiful. :frowning:

Would adding a second layer on the bottom ( on my next one) help? Be a reasonable tradeoff for the weight?

Or should I consider asking for alternative materials? More layers of glass with Epoxy resin? How about AST resin?

EPS foam? What’s more important? Flexibility of the outer shell? Hardness? Ability of the foam to rebound?

I have lots of local options for custom boards with all of these materials,

but my past experience with epoxy hasn’t convinced me that it was any more durable.

2

Maybe im biased, but try EPS epoxy construction on the next one with 2 and 2 6oz layers. my 7’0" is a 2x 4 oz top and 1x 4oz bottom which I promtly dropped down my stairs on accident a few hours after final sanding. no dents. in my experience, epoxy boards are tanks. but then agin, i might be biased, so you dont have to agree with e. better person to ask would be plusoneshaper or chips or ambrose or aquafiend or… the list goes on a while

3

Just think of your board as a ball. You take that ball and throw it with all your strength into a big rock.

If the ball is made of rubber, do you think it will dent?

Trouble is, nobody has been able to come out with a rubbery material that would still retain some stiffness features, would be easy to apply to a shaped blank, would be clear (for cosmetic reasons) and reasonably priced.

Epoxy may be tougher than poly in terms of impact resistance, but a pointed piece of any material such as rock will still dent it. Only a material that can absorb the impact, then give back, won’t. Good luck.

4
Quote:

Maybe im biased, but try EPS epoxy construction on the next one with 2 and 2 6oz layers. my 7’0" is a 2x 4 oz top and 1x 4oz bottom which I promtly dropped down my stairs on accident a few hours after final sanding. no dents. in my experience, epoxy boards are tanks. but then agin, i might be biased, so you dont have to agree with e. better person to ask would be plusoneshaper or chips or ambrose or aquafiend or… the list goes on a while

1 x 4, 2 x 4 is ultralight poly glass schedule.

if there’s a better person to ask, why respond with stock ultralight glass schedule?

5

thats ultralight POLY glass schedule. its definately not ultralite for EPOXY. a 1x4 2x4 epoxy is the equivalent roughly of a 1x6 2x6 poly board in strength. and epoxy is more dent resistant.

6

Scott;

build an eps board and glass it with that schedule.

go surf it.

come back and show me how deep the dents are…

7

I already did glass one w/ that schedule… 7’0" truster. Pics have been posted already. I got 1 dent in it so far… it fell off the back of an SUV while unloading. It fell and landed on a concrete curb and put a small dent in the rail about 15" up from the tail. Its a pretty sturdy board and can tae a fair amount of abuse. However, i dont surf my board into sharp jagged rocks if I can avoid it. Also, there are no heel dents in the board yet. maybe that might all change after a year of use, thats why I said to talk to others about it. this is just my personal experience. Also, I managed to snap a 6’6" merrick at surfside which is a relatively tame place. again, this is just my opinion on epoxy boards, not fact.

for facts, see the following…

8

Scott,

can you explain to me how tensile strength (a test designed to assay break strength) and percentile elongation (amount a material has stretched before breaking) relate to “denting”? Think about how the tests are done for tensile properties and tell me that it has anything to do with the kind of forces that will cause a dent.

seems to me that in this case, the numbers indicate that the polyesters listed would be more dent resistant than the epoxy listed…but the epoxy would dent more before breakage…less dings, more dents.

now…how could you possibly counteract this effect while still using epoxy and eps…hmmmm…

that’s right, so…

larry, if you want a board that will be more dent resistant, go with a heavier glassing schedule. The only poly boards I’ve seen that have had any kind of longevity generally have at least a 6 and 6x6 glass job…sometimes with deck patches; just like the board you have. If you want a heavier glass job than that, you’re going to have a heavier board unless you go with a lighter core and a foam that has some rebound, like you suggest. EPS/epoxy and as per the recommendation of many that have gone before me here at sways (and the same glass schedule I’ve used on my boards with good results), do a double 6 bottom, triple six top and don’t get greedy with the weight unless you’re willing to go to a sandwich construction. The surefire way to not dent your board is to subject it only to the abuse that comes from the water, not from the solids…

hope that helps

9

Balsa writes: Trouble is, nobody has been able to come out with a rubbery material that would still retain some stiffness features, would be easy to apply to a shaped blank, would be clear (for cosmetic reasons) and reasonably priced.

I respond… there are flexible boards available now, and have been. First was the Morey-Doyle; but they were kinda plugs. How hard do you go at it? There are other more modern flex boards, maybe one’s for you. The offshore epoxy Softtops, etc. are pretty ding resistant, far more than PU/PE boards will (ever?) be. Nowadays they are as light as PU/PE, too, though not cheap. Downside is the foam on the deck of those gives you a mean rash after 45 minutes, gotta wear long sleeves and longish baggies to protect the thighs.

ALSO… Jim Richardson is making boards with a slick, resilient surface. Oneula knows about 'em too, in fact he was the one who told me about them, then I saw/squeezed one in the water. Dunno the cost or source, but maybe Surf 'n Sea in Haleiwa has them. Kinda far away from you, though…

10

larry…

i wouldn’t recommend using EPS foam if there is any strong likelihood that you’ll break through the glass. with EPS, the smallest leak means your session is over…and even then it’s still a bitch to fix. with a poly blank, you can keep surfing, clean it out, and patch it up easy. however, epoxy is a great recommendation. i didn’t read everyone else’s comments, because i’m totally exhausted (been a long day), but if you used that same glass schedule with epoxy resin over a Clark Classic blank, this would give you FAR better dent resistance and keep the weight about the same as Supergreen with poly (maybe even a bit lighter).

11

Hello Scott ,

I enjoy your youthful enthusiasm but question your expertise.

Larry does daily dawn patrols at a rocky beach. Do you surf daily at a rocky beach? I Surf SanO and Churches from time to time and come home with dings. He has a very good question that needs to be answered by an expert.

There’s lots of options here…

Thanks for the question Larry. Thanks for the input everyone(including expoy resin)

Ray

12
Quote:

Balsa writes: Trouble is, nobody has been able to come out with a rubbery material that would still retain some stiffness features, would be easy to apply to a shaped blank, would be clear (for cosmetic reasons) and reasonably priced.

I respond… there are flexible boards available now, and have been. First was the Morey-Doyle; but they were kinda plugs. How hard do you go at it? There are other more modern flex boards, maybe one’s for you. The offshore epoxy Softtops, etc. are pretty ding resistant, far more than PU/PE boards will (ever?) be.

Hi Honolulu, I do agree with you. But, just as you write it, these are more or less FLEXIBLE boards.

We have yet to see boards with the same amount of stiffness as found in the PU/PE or PU/EPOXY or EPS/EPOXY but with an outside “rubbery” shell that would prevent dings or cracks.

BTW, have you noticed how added styrene in your PE resin makes it much more flexible and much less prone to breaking under impact? If you drop a piece of left-over catalysed laminating resin on concrete floor, chances are it will explode into pieces. The same left-over catalysed sanding resin or gloss resin probably won’t. On the other hand, stiffness is a must in laminating resin to make for the relative weakness of the foam core. If we could formulate a core with a given stiffness that would still “give” and come back without breaking under tensile strength… that would be a step into the future.

13

While I dont have much expertise with composite materials, my dad does (chemical engineer). I asked him about these things and just wrote what he told me. also, I have some experience with rocky beaches… heres my hell (local surf spot)…

As I have on every post… My post are solely my OPINION. I in no way shape or form endorse them as fact. I am meerly stating opinion so he can get a full understanding. This is also my experience with poly and epoxy boards… i have broken 2 poly boards on rocks and only 1 epoxy. Also, I have owned more epoxy boards than poly boards. so in my EXPERIENCE… epoxy has stood up to more beatings (IN MY EXPERIENCE…maybe i had fluke accidents with my poly’s and never w/ epoxy’s… but thats whats happened to me)

p.s. I am in no way endorsing facts… just opinions… the tables on previous post was after doing some research into composite construction. so please stop thinking that It is my own. If you want to do some research yourself, or read more scientific data… go to http://www.marinecomposites.com and read the PDF’s


14
Quote:

I have some experience with rocky beaches… heres my hell (local surf spot)…

Sorry pal, but Galveston is not Hell; Oklahoma is. And yet there may be some rocks along certain parts of the Seawall, hence your outdated pictures, these spots are not where surfers go or where the waves break. Galveston is a sand beach and the most popular surf spot on the North Shore of Texas. ALL of Texas is a sand beach; nowhere in Texas do you walk on rocks while wadiing thru the first or second, hell third sandbar to paddle to the outside.

15

I usually drive down to the end of the sea wall (towards surfside) then go down that huge concrete ramp to a sand beach… fom there, i paddle back towards the seawall… where those rocks are… there always seems to be better waves in that 1/4 mile than anywhere else along the seawall. maybe the hotel w/ the 2 topless mermaids might be a little better but its always crowded and you have to watchout for big wooden piers. although, if surf ever gets decent, i try to hitch a ride down to padre. Galveston is in no way a premeir surf spot. Anywhere in cali or hawaii or N.C. beats galveston. plus i get tired of looking at water that has the color of dirty toilet water. (thanks to very fine silt/sand and tankers stirring it up.)

16

Heres a visual that shows my spot…

17
Quote:

Galveston is in no way a premeir surf spot. Anywhere in cali or hawaii or N.C. beats galveston.

Duh.

And, it’s NOT the tankers stirring up silt, mo, that turn the water diarrhea brown; it’s the run off from the Mississippi AND the run off from the bayous that spill in to the Galveston ship channel. All that run off, especially from the Mississippi that flow SOUTH along the coast, that keeps the water brown.

18

Ok… i do agree with you then on the run off… i didnt think that nasty stuff could flow that far down. anyways… do you have any idea what surf will look like next week? any tropical storms coming through? I’m making a trip down to h-town before going back to school (in new orleans). if there is surf… wanna get together a bunch of people for surfing and food? and if no swell, then day of shaping?

19

Flaaaaaat. Besides, gotta go see my mom up in Huntsvlle at the State Pen.

20

Rock, paper, scissors.

Such a simple game?

The lessons of childhood.

The rock wins.

Unless you and your surfboard are made out of wind and water.