Question for those of you who have designed boards with some sort of CAD software.
How do you reconcile the differences of looking at your design on a monitor vs looking at a real blank?
Many times when i look at somthing on a monitor i.e. rocker or outline it doesnt look quite the same as it does in reality.
Unless you know the measurments that you want how can you “design” a board on a computer without looking at real foam?
PLEASE ignore my answer if you don’t like it!!
Even something as basically “simple” as fin design, CAD is useless! It gives the basic form OK, but we all know it’s the hand sanding and finishing that makes or breaks a good fin. CAD doesn’t finish!
So how can CAD be anything useful in surfboard shaping? Not that you shouldn’t TRY to advance the design process.
Sorry…
I beg to differ. A CNC machine can often mill to a tolerance of .0001 of an inch. No human hand can ever be that precice. As for CAD, a program that is sepcialiced for the task at hand will always be better. If you have a professional operator at the CAD You can design anything just as smooth and even better tha you could with your bare hands. Let’s just face it, combining templates the way we do for a surfboards outline doe snot create a (matematically) smooth outline.
regards,
Håvard
I think one of the problems with design software is that you cant get the same size of the board with the same lighting on your monitor as in real life. Much harder to see if a rocker is smooth on a 21" monitor compared to a 8’ blank. That said in the CAD you can(or should be able to) matemathically analyze the curves and find the flatspots, where the breaks in the curve are, how smooth it is, etc. If the software was custom tailored it should possibly be able to correct the faults in you design as well…
regards,
Håvard
Haavard… just ignore my answer.
But if you don’t want to…
NOBODY makes good CAD fins until about 3 years ago, and they only do so with vertical, straight sided fins that are big and need TONS of hand finishing!
You can theorize all you want, but it’s all theory!
Practical says it can’t be done, with small, curvy fin surfaces. The amount of HAND sanding needed more than offsets any real advantages of a perfect foil.
You are a theorist, I am a practical person looking at past history.
Gee, in the future we all will be rich and famous…NOT.
Dream on, and when you come back to REALITY…see me and the world for what is is!
I think it can be done also…im not an expert here but i have worked in a C&C machine shop and seen those machines cut out designs far more complex and intricate than any surfboard.
Probabaly the limiting factor is money but based i what i saw being cut for the aerospace industry I know it can be done.
Also Id like to point to that BASE machine in Australia…the stuff that comes out of that machine looks pretty damn close to finish if you ask me.
I think one of the problems with design software is that you cant get the same size of the board with the same lighting on your monitor as in real life. Much harder to see if a rocker is smooth on a 21" monitor compared to a 8’ blank. That said in the CAD you can(or should be able to) matemathically analyze the curves and find the flatspots, where the breaks in the curve are, how smooth it is, etc. If the software was custom tailored it should possibly be able to correct the faults in you design as well…
regards,
Håvard
I agree…Im wondering if anyone here has experience with CAD and surfboards and how what you see on the monitor will translate to what you see cut out of the foam.
CAD vs reality? CAD is reality - an expensive reality perhaps, but one none the less. Any fin that could be produced by hand can be produced by a machine (as long as a technically competent person is behind the computer and the machine). If products like the ones featured at http://bobcad.com/gallery/index.php?gallery=1V19&startat=8 can be easily produced, a fin could be too.
Maybe all this “cad stuff” isn’t (and may never) be a reality for older generations. But for me and my generation, we’ve grown up surrounded by all of it. Before I had even graduated highschool I already had three years of CAD/CAM production under my belt. It’s a shame that the older generations are too afraid (maybe just too stubborn?) to give it a shot. As with any skill, becoming fluent in computer aided design takes some hard work and a little getting used to.
As for the need to have the object in hand, I guess that’s just not something I’ve grown up with. Shapes change and shadows move even with only a slight variation in perspective. I know the underlying algorithms used to draw the model on my screen are correct - so I’d trust them more.
CAD = theory is even more of a longshot. I hate theory, yet I love the possibilities CAD/CAM gives. Something that works in the physical world is always better than something that “works” in the theoretical world.
It translates exactly. Within .005" or better. If you put in 4" of nose rocker that’s what you get when it’s machined on a CNC (Computer Numerical Control) machine. It doesn’t matter whether it’s a foam blank, or a fiberglass fin, whatever you create in CAD you will get from the CNC machine.
If the fins didn’t work good, it wasn’t because of the CNC machine, but what was drawn in CAD. And boards and fins can be finished with a CNC machine, it just takes longer, and from a production point of view, it’s more efficient to finish sand them by hand.
When you shape a board by hand, you can design as you go. With CAD/CNC you have to design everything ahead of time, or as you draw it in CAD. It’s a different process.
CAD is reality - an expensive reality perhaps, but one none the less.
Yes but if you are used to looking at a real chunk of foam and adjusting the curves by eye then CAD might be a bit tricky to learn.
Im wondering if you might design something on CAD software and look at it on the monitor and it looks good then have it cut out and look at it and its not what you thought it would be.
Yes, that does happen as you are learning the tools. But if you have good visualization skills, it doesn’t take much to join the two seamlessly. The problem is that most designers don’t pay as much attention to the details of the computer model as they do to the object in hand.
It would be nice if virtual reality equipment was cheaper so that it could be tied into the CAD software, and used to verify the shape in a manner that people are used to.
Reality is something that already exists, or is being done right now.
Possibilities and theory is what we HOPE to accomplish someday, in the future, because…it is NOT being done today!
It would be GREAT if we can CAD a working surfboard and fin. Just so happens it don’t work unless we also apply almost as much time hand finishing the CAD product!
HAND FINISHING!
When I grew up, I was taught never to behave like a CAD!
(sorry, that was a ‘sitting duck’)
By your logic of “reality is something that already exists”, 100% finished CAD/CAM shapes are reality. You may have to sacrifice 30 mins of machine time rather than 20, but machines these days are capable of producing finished shapes. I’m surprised that Miki hasn’t joined in on this discussion yet - as the engineer behind the APS3000 machine, I would take his word as final on this topic.
“as in engineer behind the…”
You don’t think he’s biased?
Were you born yesterday?
Hey, I just found the deeds for the Golden Gate Bridge. I’ll sell you some shares for…
You live for the future, that’s a compliment from me.
I live based on the past…meaning I’m not much use for technology.
But I know “in theory” when I see it.
Ok LeeDD why do you believe that you cant design and finish a shape on a modern C&C machine?
*It appears to me that the technology exists and has been around for awhile. I mean a surfboard is nowhere near as complex as some aerospace parts.
*Almost everything else is already designed and manufactured by some sort of CAD/CAM
*the only limiting factors appears to be $$$$$$$ im sure with the right amount of cash you can design and build any surfboard using CAD/CAM
Since it hasn’t been done, it’s just theory, right?
I know the world should all get along, but it’s a theory, right?
We should eat veggies for good health, but it’s a theory, right?
I think I am communicating with logical and intelligent people, but it’s just a theory…
Maybe Lee just doesn’t like shaping machines. We’ve already got the public surfing image designed by committees of marketing experts, computer generated brand names, and robots of every kind analysing every aspect of our buying behaviour in order to predict the best way to squeeze us for more. On top of that we have surfing style conformity and even non conformity carefully managed by agents, middlemen and other parasites to the point where the top 44 might as well be robots themselves. I realise that rationally speaking, a shaping machine is just a tool, but sometimes the soul driven surfer might find the whole box of tricks to be rather gross. I certainly do.
Kinda, sorta, maybe…
I DO ride two Bic production popouts quite a bit.
But, I’ve also worked in the windsurfing business since '83, and consult with some custom production companies in the last 5 years.
CAD is a GREAT idea, I’m not knocking it’s possibilities. All I"m saying is they still don’t make a CAD fin that doesn’t require huge amounts of hand sanding to make right.
That’s Vector, C-3, Deboti (can’t spell it), Tetonics, Curtis, and Hurricane fins!
... on a modern C&C machine?
What’s this “C&C” you keep referring to?
Check my previous post above for the correct terminology.