I have read some of the threads on using carbon fiber and kevlar but still have a couple of questions. Kinda doing this just for fun on a board for myself. Using a pu blank laminating 5 oz fiberglass on bottom, and 4/5 oz on the deck. Just ordered carbon fiber/kevlar cloth and plan on running it down the rails and up on the deck towards the tail. First question is can I use epoxy to laminate the carbon even though I used poly to lam the fiberglass? Then, can I go back to poly for the hot coat? Also, I read that the the cloth is very hard to cut - what is the best way to get it down on the rails and get it cut. Was thinking of doing it just like a normal cut lap - tape off the deck and bottom, then lam the carbon cloth on the rails, then cut when gels? Any help would be appreciated on this!
Please post some pics of this process. I’ve been looking into this as well. I would say do not mix the resins during the process. One or the other. I was told that you can cut it with a razor after gelling, but you get like one swipe per blade. Also I’ve been warned about splinters from the stuff. So be careful. I’ve also heard it does not sand. Seems to me best way to apply without vac bagging, is have the cloth cut, you can get kevlar scissors, and lam it between layers of glass. I plan on trying this, but my intent is tail patches or a strip down heel side of stringer. Hopefully we can get some pics of this process soon.
steve00, My computer is messing up, dropping the connection before i can finish a reply. Get off 50/50 fabric! cancel the order.! I left my phone number for you to call on a private message. John C.
Ok, computer is working better now. I got your call but couldn't hear your number. 50/50 carbon kevlar is a giant pain to work with. I've done 3 longbord sides and a big external deck patch with the stuff, all of it a major headache. You can use poly resin for the whole job, best not to change resins back and forth. You'll need special scissors to cut the kevlar, new Fiskars from Costco might work for one job, you'll need to test that or get special kevlar cutting scissors, I've seen them on the web for $20 and there has been input about cutting kevlar on sways, cutting carbon is not a problem. You'll do better to use straight carbon for your job but if you insist on proceeding get ready for problems sanding and finishing the 50/50 material. Kevlar laps cut no prob when green but does not sand. The 50/50 fabric is loose, course weave that uses a ton of resin to try to fill and will not sand down. I'm stuck with doing a long board side right now with 50/50 and plan to smash down the weave with med. weight plastic sheeting, peel ply works for that but costs and uses a lot of resin and doesn't go around rails very well. Pico's idea of putting the 50/50 under glass is the right idea, bury it somehow. After dealing with 50/50 you'll go with straight carbon for future ideas. Call again if you want.
Thanks for the heads up John. The material is already on the way and was pretty expensive, so I am going to go ahead and go with it. Had some extra materials from the last run of boards I did so I am really just in it for a blank. I am definitely planning on running into some problems, but so it goes with anything new i guess. I have already put a 5oz layer of fiberglass on the bottom. I plan on putting on a 5oz deck patch of fiberglass so essentially the whole board will have one layer of fiberglass. Then I am planning on taping off the deck and bottom of the board, applying the 50/50, cut, then a 4oz fiberglass lam on the deck that wraps the rails covering all of the 50/50. Will order some kevlar scissors or get a descent pair for a one time use. Will definitely do some testing before I use it. I am kind of nervous because the shape came out absoultely perfect. I am fairly new at this but it is a shape I designed and am pretty proud of.
Really kind of skeptical of how much dent resistance, strength this will add, but it should make for a nice looking board if nothing else. I like to stick with simple and tried and true, but doesn't hurt to go out on a limb every once in a while - bound to learn something one way or the other. I will post some pics as I go, and will let you guys know the problems I run into along the way.
Most of the advanced fibers/weaves are designed to be bagged. Hand-lam is a little archaic in the real composite industry. A PU blank is kinda heavy to begin with, so there's not a lot of room to play with the lam schedule on the skin. Some companies are adding in little patches of exotic fibers so they can claim to be ''high tech''.
But you've got the fiber on it's way, so here's what I can tell you about working with it: Definitely have a layer of e-glass over it so you don't sand into the kevlar. It won't sand, just burrs up. There's no visual indication of wet-out, so work it good, listen for pops of bubbles.
Next time think about the whole composite - adding very stiff fibers into an otherwise ''normal'' build may not be the best approach. Have fun exploring the possibilities!
Kevlar can be a pain in the ass to work with, but can yield incredibly durable parts if done right. Yes, bagging would be ideal but you can lam your board normally as long as you take your time to do it right. I had my first lam job go south because the batch kicked before I was done and I had to scrap the whole expensive project.
My advice is to buy so extra scrap kev/carbon cloth so you can practice wrapping your rails - it’s pretty bulky - and that way you get it right on the first shot. You could try a vinylester resin to get a mix between the toughness of epoxy and the flex of Poly. Also buy yourself some expensive kevlar shears - I like Fibreglast.com - or you will hate yourself later. Put a layer of glass on the outside like Mike said and it’ll give you some wiggle room. You’ll know when you sand through…
I have a glass/kevlar lam that I surf in the rivers - what else can you do in Montana? - and it’s a little heavy but bomber and it surfs well. There’s a whole world of alternate cloths out there so have fun with your lam jobs and experiment as much as you can to max the properties of each fiber. Once you get away from glass you’ll be happy you did!
Good idea about covering the whole thing with 4oz, the laps will turn out fine but it'll be a challenge to get a clean enouph cut on the 50/50 fabric to make a clean edge on the buried fabric. Just tonight I cut the 50/50 fabric to size for the side I've got to do, its a very supple, loose weave fabric that frays all over the place, the kind of special scissors that have the little teeth along the edges might contain the runaway frays enouph to get a clean cut?? or you might need to put the 50/50 rails on last with taped laps top and bottom but be careful about bulking things up too much. The fabric is very supple and wraps edges easily, its really strong for breakage issues but isn't all that great for ding resistance with a single layer, double and triple layers, yes, now you're getting something durable for dings. It'll pressure dent less with double layer, single layer is lame. The trouble of slaving with 50/50 isn't anywhere near worth the tiny more durability we get from the kevlar in the fabric. After you toil with this batch you'll set the stuff aside and use straight carbon instead. Keep going, it'll turn out fine and beautiful, my whole board did and I'm a complete amateur.
How easy is 100% carbon fiber to work with compared to fiberglass. I am interested in just going down the rails and maybe a patch on the deck at the tail. I am starting to already regret not doing more research before ordering the 50/50 - sounds like more of a novelty in this application - not a lot of benefit for the troubles. Still going to try it out though.
Carbon is generally easy to work with. Glass is nice because we can see thru it so well. Carbon is black invisible, the glasser has no visual clues to whats going on under the fabric and its a little baulky about wetting out good and we can't see the wet out very well. The dry fabric cuts easily, I've used .99 cent store scissors to cut out repair patches but have only used my high qual scissors on the big cuts. The invisibility of the tape edge on the laps is a prob. I've been feeling for that edge with the blade as I lift and cut, tedious and imperfect but it works ok. Carbon sands too well, must be careful about destroying the fabric strength with sand thrus and the dust reportedly is very toxic but I've had problems finding direct references about the dust toxidity. Its a stiff fabric that you'd think wouldn't wrap edges but after wetting it behaves pretty well. I just did a board with sharp tail area rails so took the the foam edge down to about 1/4" radius and got a good wrap. A black board in day to day use is a major pain, it gets excessivly hot just getting from the car to the beach, forget about setting it down and walking away in the sun, it'll go to very high delam temp fast, wax won't stay on a black board, too hot too fast. I don't know how Aviso and other mainstream buiders get sun exposure durability into their black laminations, mine need a spray can white paint job.
Kevlar is lighter than standard E glass , It’s actually lighter than Carbon fiber… Way lighter… .But it needs vacuum bagging tech… to keep it so…You have to keep Kevlar from soaking up excess resin… It’s better suited towards the bottom of boards, as this is where the abraision / flex properties suit Kevlar…
It has a flex pattern similar to E-glass so it flexes great… but does not break down under impact, abuse applications… Kevlar is lighter than Carbon, and is more flexible… It’s abrasion resistance is " bullit proof "…
Combine Carbon with Kevlar, and you can have loads of fun !!!
I would really re-think what you are going to attempt. You've got a great shape that is at a stage of glassing that is already past the point where you should be adding carbon. Also I'm assuming your using it on a stringered pu blank.
There are a few tricks to use this stuff and by adding the kevlar into the mix you've really made things difficult.
You are going to have to precut the material before you apply it to the board. You can get away with using a new sharp quality scissors but the carbon is going to fray. It will fray even with the composite shears but not as much.
If you are dead set on using the material there are a few tricks to make it work. I use an e cloth .58 oz. veil that I spray adhesive to the back of the material before I cut it with the composite shears. The veil weighs nothing and is almost impossible to pull apart. Cut your material as best as you can, apply it to the rail area with the spray adhesive, then do your deck lam over the whole thing. Adding the carbon/kevlar last will work but the extra 4oz will just add more weight and give you a higher edge to the carbon/kevlar.
The better way to laminate the material to the rail is to buy carbon tape without kevlar. It is cheaper comes in narrow widths and has a woven edge. Spray adhesive on the foam then apply the tape as the first step. Laminate the tape then cut the carbon with a razor just like a cut lap. The gelled material is easier to cut and doesn't fray. Then you do your regular lay-up. That way the carbon is buried under all the rail laps. The kevlar on the other had will not cut with a razor at any point.
I know the stuff looks super cool and has crazy properties but you've got to really think about what your doing. A stringered pu blank with a carbon kevlar rail is going to give it quite a bit of stiffness at the penalty of weight, time, and money. The material can be used with pe resin but to take full advantage of it's properties epoxy should be used. I'd save the material and use it on a stringerless 1.5-1.7 lb high quality fused eps blank instead.
Well I ended up trying to use the carbon/kevlar and actually made it work. After getting the material I realized that putting it on the rails was out of the question. Just didn't see any way to get it on straight and would have made the rails too thick - it is a short board with pretty knifey rails. So, I ended up just putting a deck patch on. I will post some pics soon.
Couple things about my experience if anyone else is thinking about trying to use the stuff. First of all, don't use it! It is just not the best material for a surfboard. If you do end up trying it, get some kevlar scissors. They actually do a really nice job cutting it, and cost about $20. Regular scissors will not cut it at all! The kevlar is died a deep blue on the stuff I ordered which makes for a really cool look when woven with the carbon fiber which is pretty much the reason I went with it over 100% carbon.
I knew when I decided to go ahead and try it that the deck patch I put on was really not going to give me any additional strength - maybe a little protection from big pressure dings at best. I just wanted to try something fairly easy to see if there was anything I could do with it on future boards and the answer is absolutely not. I ended up having to make a template out of heavy paper. Laid the template on the board and taped the board off around the template. Cut the cloth oversized with kevlar scissors. Brushed a small amount of resin on the board, applied the cloth, then laminated as usual. Once it started to gel, had the lay the template back on the cloth since the tape was no longer visible. Here is where the pain in the ass begins. I had to wait for the resin to get pretty hard before I could cut or the kevlar would just start to pull and unravel. I used an xacto knife and went through about 30 blades trying to cut it. Little fibers ended up everywhere because it just didn't cut clean at all. Of course those fibers were extremely sticky from the resin and stuck to the board and everthing they touched. Ended up getting it cut fairly clean, but it will definitely need a pin stripe for a clean look. I covered the patch with 4oz fiberglass now ready to hot coat.
Bottom line, I have 3 yds of 50 inch sick looking cloth that is pretty much useless for future boards. I have a board with a cool look that is a little heavier with no real added strength. My buddy is big into motorcycles, so I think we are going to try to mold a couple parts with it since it was prettty expensive and I don't really have a use for it. Going to order some carbon fiber to try some things in the future for sure. Glad I tried it but won't do it again.
Hey guys I’ve just recently bought myself a new Stealth Carbon fiber and need some info on when is the best time to release the air that builds up inside the hollow frame and how often ?
After every surf ?
Every couple of weeks ?
Is there any other vital info I may need to know to keep this bored in good awesome shape?
If it doesn’t have it put a gortex vent in it which always breathes. Non gortex vents on a modern board is unheard of these days. Talk to the manufacturer, they should have instructed you regarding this. Are you even sure there is a frame in it?? Other recommendations to keep it awesome would be to stay off the rocks, use a leash, don’t let it fly off your car while traveling down the highway and of course don’t let anyone else borrow it.