Hey Everyone,
So I am thinking about glassing some carbon fiber tail patches to the board I am shaping right now. Lost has been doing it with a lot of their boards lately and I thought I would give it a try. I’m not too sure about how I should go about doing it though. Does anyone have any suggestions or advice? Thanks!
I think the world of ya’ Greg… But you couldn’t be further from the truth…
I’ve never really understood why they place the carbon on these “fad” surfboards where they do… It seems to only protect the rail from rear foot heel impacts…
I come from a windsurf and kiteboard background and I assure you these localized carbon insert plates will eliminate all heel dents and ball of foot dents if done correctly…
I have foot strap plates that are made from multiple layers of carbon…, You screw these plates down to your board in conjunction with the foot straps… I’ve got boards that have been repeatedly jumped 20 to 30ft. in the air and landed hard since 2004 and there are NO visable foot dents…
Every time I read a surfboard for sale post on surfboard forums and it says: “No damage, just the usual foot wells” , I have to laugh… There’s no reason you have to damage the foam under your feet… Non…
Some people also say: “I like the foot wells, they make me feel comfortable”… Oh well , those dents are the first step towards deck failure…
I believe NSI has some carbon reinforced traction pads… The carbon under the eva foam pad spreads the load out in a radial pattern reducing point loaded impacts…
I think they were called Hein pads, but I’m not sure…
It’s elementary science… Grab a hammer and hit some un-glassed
foam… Do the same with glassed foam an the results are
better… Put some carbon impact patches under the intended impact zone
and the results are better yet… Put the carbon on the outside of the skin as in the re-inforced traction pads I mention above and the damage is less again…
I believe in the patches, if done under both feet and the whole footbed area…
Sorry mate, no moderation from me… im not on here much anymore… spend my time doing, trying and acting, rather than keyboard assisting! like what you do tho… nice to see someone with actual knowledge put into construction practice
I was about to call BS on the whole tail patch thing but you put me on to those two good carbon sites and I didn't want to sound like a cranky old man.
IMHO, it is just a non functional fad. but I don't surf like the pro's. so.....
[img_assist|nid=1060199|title=cut lap|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=373|height=281]Red board - Two layers of carbon over the fin plugs. Over D-cell Year of hard surfing later, and no dent at all. My normal tail patches don’t hold up as well.
Blue board - Two layers of carbon, over U S Blanks red. No D-cell. The deck has some heel wells, but no dent on the carbon at all. And for what it is worth, those deck rail grid things are not carbon. They are Technora Fine filament <0.5 osy
Got that from the same graphite masters sales guy that first told me about the Cerex stuff.
[img_assist|nid=1057679|title=Deck from tail|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=302|height=405]
Carbon laminates just like glass. I'd put the carbon patch on the outside, glass still shatters when on the outside of carbon. Find the tape edge for trimming by carefully lifting the tape edge as you razer cut on the tape edge.
use the right resin unlike most who use it…
Hey surffl, I am in the process of using some carbon for the first time as well. I had an old blank lying around so I decided to make it an experimental board (by my standards) complete with carbon fiber strips and Stretch type deck channels. I am running a strip up the stringer placed between where a rider’s feet would be.
Basically what I did so far was tape the carbon fiber with masking tape, and cut it out to prevent fraying (which more or less didn’t work because when I pulled the tape it just frayed the edges–Next time I will cut closer to the edge of the tape to leave a minimal amount to pull off). Then I laminated it onto the foam using RR epoxy. Make sure you really saturate it because I had a few recurring bubbles from the way the cloth was rolled up and shipped that needed some attention.
Next, I plan on fairing the edges of the strip (they sit a little high on the foam–Maybe next time I’ll push them down into the foam when the resin is slightly malleable), putting a little cheater coat of epoxy around the edges, sanding and applying a black pinline to clean it up. Then I’m going to laminate as normal over top.
Word of advice: take my suggestions with a grain of salt. I don’t know if this is the way to do it, I’m just trying to figure it out on my own. I’m sure some of the more experienced guys will jump in and offer you better advice.
Let me know if you find anything when you do it that can help me out as well.
The first question you need to ask yourself is WHY you are using carbon fiber? What problem does it solve that you are having with fiberglass? Or is it purely aesthetic? If you honest with yourself here, you can likely save yourself a bit of headache and expense, and just skip the carbon.
The tail patches were originally being used on pro’s boards that had single 4oz. decks because they were crushing the rails with their heels. The average Joes saw the pros riding boards with tail patches so they wanted tail patches, even though most boards have 4/4 decks and aren’t as susceptible to crushing.
Carbon on the tail is actually going to stiffen the tail which may or may not be what you want.
If you do decide to go that route, put glass on the outside of the carbon. Carbon is seriously evil stuff to sand from both a health and finishing perspective.
Don’t fall into the trap of fashion before function.
I put carbon heel dent resistant patches under my core.cell skins all the time.
I’m going to add some to a regular US blank as well so this is what I do…
I have two tempered glass doors that I salvaged out of one of those cheap wall unit stereo deals that they used to sell in the 80’s and probably still do…
1: I lightly wax the glass doors with any release wax, even a good car wax then buff smooth…
2: I tape a piece of nylon peel ply down to the glass on what will be my bottom glass layer.
3. I can either lay the carbon ontop of the peel ply coverd glass and wet out there or wet out on plastic then transfere to the peel ply covered glass. Depends on how nice I want the weave to look…
4. I lay another piece of peel ply ontop of the wetted out carbon, then place the second glass door on top of that…
5. I add weight’s to this sandwich of glass , peelply, carbon, peelply and glass and let cure… Not until it’s rock hard but until it’s still quite flexible… Maybe 2-3 hrs. or so , quicker if using K.K. of course…
6 . Pull apart the waxed glass sandwich and carefully peel of the peel ply from both sides of the carbon.
7. Using scissors, I cut the perfect pattern of patch I want, you can even make a few ready for later…
8. I tape in place the carbon patches where i want them on the board and lightly trace around them with a pencil.
9. I tape off around the outside edge of this pencil line and lightly sand the inside area of the foam down to the thickness of the patch…
10. I stick the patches into the lightly recessed area, with some epoxy, then lift the perimeter tape… I lay out the fiberglass or install the deck skins in my usual manner…
This method is more time consuming but the carbon is cut perfectly with no freyed edges, is wet out the right amount, an most importantly there is zero bump where the patches are… I’m not a real fan of slapping on lots of hot coat to blend bumps…Or sanding down core-cell skins to remove patch bumps from below… I don’t like the look of frayed carbon edges… They look hack…
Sandwiching the carbon between 2 layers of peel ply draws off the excess epoxy as well as leaves a dull finish perfect for laminating to…
I’m in no rush, so this is what I do… Try it, or leave it…
I’m basically turning my carbon cloth into a form of carbon veneer, nothing more…
Shhh… I think someone’s listening… I’d better go…
Wow, kick ass process and kick ass explanation. Thanks for that!!!
Kiterider! Shhhh China is watching!!!
I dare you to start a thread with these tips you’ve been giving out! Really draw attention to it. Just to see what happens! Next thing, they will start correcting your spelling and grammer!
But really, thanks, Good stuff
Thanks Everysurfer and Doyle…
Bare in mind… I’m still only a garage hack… But a smart one…lol
There are some here that are going to say that’s a waste of time… You’re anal, bla.bla, bla,…
Well maybe, if I was in a production race…But I’m not… Yes… I sell my boards to friends… And they’re quite happy with the extra quality…
I’ve seen some really nice boards from big name shapers messed up (cosmetically) with straggly pieces of carbon running around the rails on to the bottom on just one side of the board…
It looks bush league to me… If you’re going to put on different colored patches, at least do it like Coil and make it look engineered…
Edit:
I’d like to adjust my stated 2 to 3hr. cure time for those not using a heat box to set these patches or K.K… I kinda push along the cure using a heated box when using standard setting epoxy…
Actual normal peel time would be around 4 to 5hrs. @ 70F. Do some test patches and find that firm / fully cured, yet rubbery time when you can peel off the peel ply… You want it to come off clean with no uncured resin in the cloth… If you wait too long, just warm up the patches with a heat gun or hair dryer prior to application… They mold to any curves when warmed and are flexible… Not too hot though!!
For those who like bamboo veneer:
Or this: http://www.dragonplate.com/ecart/categories.asp?cID=12
Duh! It doesn’t get much simpler… As long as you have really deep pockets…ha.ha. Look at the dragon plate Twill… Awesome! Get your check books out… Or make your own for way less…
Down with Cerex we want Carbon veneer…lol…
just use hair spray on the carbon before and after you cut it… just a light mist is enough to stop all the fraying…
Nice tip Dave…
Used to use that stuff to stop mountain bike grips from twisting on the bars… Now they’ve got lockable grips…
Will try your method some time for sure…
Btw. You should run for moderator here, always admired your " even keelness" … Yeah that’s it…
thanks for the web source for carbon, too.
I aim to please…ha,ha,.
I’m just a google maniac… But then, I don’t own an Eye Pad or a cell phone, so it cancels out… Hopefully , I never will… lol…
The best answer of the bunch…!!
That being said : Heel impact
plates made from carbon extend the life of any board… They’re localized
load spreading “plates”… Spreading out the impact load…
If you
know exactly where you’re going to stand on any given board, cut the
carbon heel dent inserts to fit the general location of your feet…
They don’t have to be huge,they just have to be under your most likely
heel and ball of foot locations…
Hell : 4oz. or 6oz . S-glass patches would nearly do the same thing equally as well, albeit heavier… But it’s not as glamorous…
KR, I should have been more clear. Those carbon strips over the fin boxes on the deck seem to me to be decoration. I will certainly grant you that done as you say carbon will serve well.
But another knock against carbon is it is scorching hot here in FL, when you ding it an unrepairable fracture happens, and when used on the rails, it just stiffens up the board way too much. I'm no pro, but I've used it on rails, as a reinforcement under bamboo for feet and fin boxs and I have some CF fins. Other than the uses you mention, I just don't see it as compatible for surfboards. Years ago I posted a clip from a composite book that discussed why CF and conventional glass were not a good match in composites. GIve me a day or so and I will find it and post again. Or since you have strong google skills, maybe you could find it. (it talks about a weight hung with a chain and a stretch cord and how neither help each other).
all the best.
KR, here it is:
"Actually, someone here turned me on to a great little book: "Understanding Airfcraft Composite Construction". there is an antecdote about hanging a 1000 pound weight on a chain and a bungee, each capable of carrying 600 pounds. They don't hold 1200 total. First you have to connect the bungee and let it carry say 550 pounds, then connect the chain and continue to lower the weight. the bungee has to be given a lot of stretch to carry its share of the load , but the chain does not.
Apply this to composites. Some aircraft wings are made mostly with epoxy and E glass, but with carbon on the spar caps. Carbon is much stiffer that the glass, so the carbon willl carry nearly the entire spar cap load. If any glass is used in parallel with the stiffer carbon, the glass componet is essetially wasted because it will never experience enough strain ( stretch) to carry a useful load. the carbon gets nearly all the load."