A quick visit to the “bentley sport” website reveals that they are using (manufacturing as well?see news section) FCS fins, and HEXCEL supplies their cloth. A good start for shapers is to stop using these products. Why support a company that would put you out of business? Why support a company that would rather give a better deal to a large overseas factory than see your industry flourish?
Quote:
Quote:“Arial”]Home is where you hang your hat Bloke. You’re an Aussy now.
Last time I checked he was a Kiwi. Some Aussie kants consider New Zed to be the 8th state but don’t tell that to a Kiwi. Hemi and Rangi from the Mongrel mob would not approve.
Yeah that’s true. … we remember our ancestry prior to coming to NZ in 1960 too. . . as far back as 800 AD actually so there’s more to it than just being a ‘kiwi’ … . . . my mother is a part Chinese Aussie from Melbourne, so WTF ? . . . I think the whole anti Chinese thing is just pathetic.
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I second that. The concept of free trade is usually for the benefit of mass explotation. I dare anyone to export chop sticks to China and tell us what happens.
In free trade / capitalism . . .
there are many ways to win
you compete on a volume level
you compete on a price level
you compete on a quality level
you compete using govt (like tariffs / protected industry) .
Give or take.
Most companies use all of them. A few focus on quality (look at ferrari) while others are balanced.
Toyota has found a good balance between quality and price, and volume. Which is why they are killing US car companies. (not ONE US company made the top 10 safety standards list this year)
At the moment China has volume and price. They haven’t refined quality.
The thing about surfboards is . . . not what manufacturing technique you use, is the people you use.
Take CI. They sell shapes that work well with lots of people and differing surf styles. Sure Al Merrick uses machines / ghost shapers. Sure he may use offshore 3rd parties to make boards.
But the key is his surf team. He tests his stuff with people that do surf. And his surf team is well balanced from top riders to average riders . . . longboarders to short . …
In china that is lacking. Since they don’t surf . . . .
They cannot produce a quality product unless they have people who surf.
Have you seen Al Merrick’s “Anacappa” line of boards from China? The finish quality is better than his CA made boards. If you site down the boards, you can see they’ve been block sanded from tip to tail… no disc marks. And they sell for $200 less than his US made boards - same $$ markup to the dealer.
It’s too late to shut down board production in China. Dealers like the boards because they can sell them for less and still make the same return. Beginers like them because they don’t really care what they ride. Manufacturers like them because it’s easy money.
In my mind, the model to look at is the guitar industry. Fender makes guitars all over the world for different consumers in different price points. You can buy a “Stratocaster” made in Korea for $120, one from Mexico for $250, one from Japan for $500, one from USA for $800, a custom shop USA model for $1,200, and masterbuilt custom shop models into the stratosphere. From ten feet away all these guitars look identical. On closer inspection, the differences become clear.
Kids learning to play and folks who want a “guitar” but aren’t that serious buy the cheap ones. People who know the difference get the best one they can afford. The Korean models get beat to crap or tossed in a closet, the custom shop models get the love other family members can only hope for. Fender has no shortage of buyers for custom shop guitars… in fact the more cheap guitars they sell, the more customs they sell. They now even have a membership program for the custom shop - and they’re at max capacity.
There will always be a market for hi-end surfboards. Serious surfers will know the difference. Education is the key to keeping custom shaping alive. The Holy Grail will always be a custom magic board. That will never come off an assembly line 200 miles from the nearest beach.
Who cares what the weekend warriors surf? Not me. Surf what works for you and you can afford. Get better, learn about differences between boards, get obsessive like the people on swaylocks, give your crappy boards to friends who want to learn to surf, build a quiver of specialized equipment. I’ve got over 30 boards in my garage - mostly customs, some off the rack, a couple Surftechs, a few Hydro Epics… they’re all good.
If you’re trying to make a living from shaping, just convince people you make great boards. Cinchy. If you make boards that serious surfers fall in love with you’ll have all the business you can handle.
Just to add my concerns/views
Quote: “Well I have so let me fill you in on what you get from China… no Environmental concerns what so ever.” Unquote.
Im sorry to have to say this because i am sure you all care about the environment deeply, but coming from a country which will not sign up to the Kyoto agreement et. al., this seems a bit hipocritical. Why not lobby your government to change its economically protectionist stance, and then market yourselves on that basis that you, your products and your country are greener. I personally think protecting jobs through dogmatic protectionism only delays the effect and hurts those jobs more in the long run, the ONLY way you can survive is through adapting.
One idea; Lobby the government to levy an environmental impact tax on all goods, then your more environmentally aware construction methods will be able to compete and it will pay benefits. This would also cause the Chinese to see the benefits of a more environmentally aware economy, and lead them to change their stance towards the environment! We will all be able to reap the reward!
I agree with Shine on all but one point!!!
Quote: “WE SHOULD BE LOBBYING CONGRESS TO PUT RESTRICTIONS/TARIFFS” Unquote
As a country which prides its self on freedom; freedom of speech, freedom to vote, freedom of trade,etc…, this is wholly unethical and in my view would be a form of prejudice. By all means apply taxes, but apply them to all goods, imported and exported. As I said before environmental tax is one route. Another is to tax exports on resin/glass/blanks to a proper level, not the low levels which supports a small number of big businesses, but actually makes it worse for the general population.
You cannot stop change - You HAVE to adapt!
It is the only way to survive!
Business is Darwinian (which i hope you all believe in!);
Only the fittest survive; It does not mean the biggest wins, its the best adapted which will survive!
Be creative and invent something better, PuPe is old technology, it will be superceded!
I appreciate any comments!
Sorry for the essay,
James
Last time I checked, every foot of every boardbuilder I met was either bare or seated nicely in a China-made shoe or sandal. Nearly every surf leash, tail pad, boardbag and boardshorts were also made there. I personally don’t know anyone (in the boardbuilding community) willing to pay US market labor rates for their everyday goods from shoes to pots and pans to sunglasses. Everyone’s great at blowing smoke here in Swaylock’s, but the real issue is getting organzied, marketing your US made products and getting retailer leveraged to give you proper representation and margin.
… you just better make sure you shape it, glass it and sand it well instead of delivering marginal fit and finished boards…
Al Merrick’s line from China???
Think about what you just said,how many times have you been in the parking lot of your local spot and heard some random charger bragging about their killer new stick from China. Get real, Al Merrick has turned from legend into a phony maggot that needs fly away along with the rest of the sellouts invading our way of life. Act locally first
A lot of good points coming out of this discussion. Its important to remember that tariffs are an everyday part of international trade – there are tariffs on nearly all products imported and exported from the US. What’s more, It is illegal under US law for you to sell US made surfboards for less that AVC cost with the intent to eliminate your competition. True, many products we use today are made in China, and other industries have raised the issue regarding “dumping” in US markets – many have taken the same actions we are discussing. Its not about eliminating China from the market, but stopping the practice of dumping product in US markets below the cost to make it. Remember the ads you have seen on swaylocks – China made boards with Aussie blanks, US Resin and materials for $160 – FCS installed for additional $15. The math does not work.
Quote:
Business is Darwinian (which i hope you all believe in!);
Only the fittest survive; It does not mean the biggest wins, its the best adapted which will survive!
Business in a laissez-faire economy can never be darwinian. This is because the perfect competition market doesn’t exist, it is an abstract concept used to define an archetype in economics. What business in laissez-faire is, however, is dangerous if uncontrolled. Why? Because humans run them and humans are by their nature dangerous. If this were not the case then why do scandals and disasters occur. Enron? Bhopal? Some would argue the current situation in the world may be in part due to uncontrolled super-corporations. What we see happening is that big capital, uncontrolled, is swarming the world like a swarm of locusts buying up smaller companies just to create a monopolistic position, or worse, liquidate assets at a cheap rate.
Furthermore, if you truly believe in laissez-faire economics, then you would embrace child labor and social dumping, this cannot be acceptable if you claim to be democratically inclined as exploitation and emancipation do not go hand in hand.
No, a market economy has good externalities when it is regulated and kept on track by a democratic system which works for the people by the people.
Fair enough, i accept business is not truly Darwinian.
My main point is that business IS regulated, but in a way that favours the super companies.
As i said before, restrictive regulation only leads to worse problems. Good regulation is about looking forward, not backward!
Possibly the most flawed piece of regulation, in my view, is the comparative lack of tax on all forms of fuel, especially for international transport (shipping, aviation etc…). If fuel were taxed to a ‘normal’ sensible level, locally produced goods would, even with higher manufacturing costs, be able to compete and probably win. At the moment shipping the boards half-way round the world is not a considerable part of the cost! That is ridiculous!
In my view the cost of transport is not in line with other costs (and reality), and is kept artificially low by regulation to enable super companies to setup overseas operations for less cost and virtually ignore the fact they have to ship the goods massive distances. This is what is causing super companies, not a lack of regulation!
Solution: Increase taxation on fuel!
This would only hurt super companies, the US manufacturing industry (you), would actually benefit despite the rise in cost of fuel as the price of goods was brought inline with the true cost of manufacture and shipment!! The problem is that this will make the true cost of all goods become apparent, and the artificially low price you pay for all imported goods would rise! You, and me, have to realise that weve been getting a ‘free lunch’ all these years with the low cost of imported goods, its now time to pay that back (and with interest as weve allowed our own manufacturing industries to crumble)!!!
Its your choice, allow super companies (seen as the be all and end all of your economy) to flourish on a wave of almost tax free fuel (and kill your businesses in the process), or pay the true cost of fuel and see your real economy flourish on the tide of US made goods.
Lobbying your government is the only way, tell them you want higher taxes on fuel!
Next time a rise on the cost/tax of fuel happens, dont grumble - rejoice and ask for more!
Again, sorry for the essay!!
James
Quote:
the US manufacturing industry (you)
you talking to me??
I am neither in the US nor in the “industry”. I don’t really care much about where joe public is getting his boards or shoes. I would think it a good thing if jo public was discerning and procured himself a nice product from a craftsman but really that choice is his own. Taxing fuel isn’t going to change much, although I am a proponent of taxing the petrolium industry for other reasons. My personal opinion is that goods and services should be compared equally. If a country or region is not on par with labour protection, social security and environmental regulations, an anti-apartheid style boycott is legitimate. No nonsense about “sanctions hurt people not regimes” that’s bollocks, sanctions can work, in South Africa they DID work, they just need to be applied with ferver and commitment. Country X is deforesting the jungle and exploiting the population? Bring that fence up, not a dollar in or out.
But hey, that’s my arsehole, urhm, opinion…
‘You’ was in relation to INEEDblanks and the other surfboard manufacturers in the debate.
Sorry to lump you all together! I dont work in the industry, and im also not in the US either!
Quote: "Country X is deforesting the jungle and exploiting the population? Bring that fence up, not a dollar in or out. " Unquote
In my opinion (prob. rubbish), ‘Country X’ is only taking its lead from the ‘super companies’, especially the oil industry. How much of the revenue generated from oil is given to the people who live above it (in some cases in extreme poverty)??? And what right gives the oil company to own/buy it inthe first place! That IS exploitation!
I think we (the so called civilised ‘West’, im sorry for lumping us all together again!!) need to sort out our own economies/policies/attitude before we can criticise other regimes for exploitation and bringing up trade embargos!
They are easy targets for the polititians and so they are scapegoated (exploited) to make us forget about our(sorry) own exploitation of the world by our big companies/governments.
Sorry for my rant,
James
Quote:
I think we (the so called civilised ‘West’, im sorry for lumping us all together again!!) need to sort out our own economies/policies/attitude before we can criticise other regimes for exploitation and bringing up trade embargos!
You are right to recognize there would be opposition to calling everything “the West”. You are on one end of the pond, I am on another. Yep, Guilford, UK is now officially on the other side of the pond, didn’t Blair tell you?
LOL!!
Hmm… i think you are possibly joining us on the ‘other side’. Something a person coming from a Kyoto country should be very worried about, i know i am!
James
Please correct me if I am wrong???
Americans can sell boards all over the world at there price, they don’t expect an argument.
Can Australians sell boards there or is that the same as the chinese.
I am against the popout mentality of the so called chinese product as a surfer and a shaper however it is competition and that is bussiness.
Is the answer surfboards can’t be exported or imported.
no intention of trying to debate the whole big business debate.one thing clearly stands out surfing is no longer and maybe it never was the counter culture but it was a nice dream believing so.but id like to think some where on this planet someone is catching waves and could careless as to who and who is not making money no boats no magazines no photographers no camps no cell phones no computers if this business mentality continues soon we will all have to pay for waves something that none of us own but many are certainly trying to say so, so many people start out with good intentions only to end up like the very thing they were trying to get away from.here is a what if,all the surfing web sites no longer exist that predict the surf or show web cams no surf reports, radio ect… would we be willing to go back to an era when you trusted your senses,what would the lineups be like if no one called they friends… with surf reports or bragged to all their friends about the spot they surfed lastly maybe the leash was the downfall of the industry no consequences for silly moves just thoughts… aloha
I have no problem with australian made boards in my surfshops, because I know that they were made using labour that was fairly paid. I’d have no problem with chinese made boards if I knew the labour was fairly paid. Where the problem lies is knowing that A) the workers in these factories are recieving pennys for their hard work. B) The same people we buy our supplies from charge us more than the chinese pay (and in some cases our suppliers ARE these factories we compete with). C) I’m sure there is not much concern for the environment by these factories (I have travelled to China, and it is very polluted).Capitolism at its most extreme.
If we had no labour standards, cheap materials and no regards for the environment then I think it would be fair to call it business and competition. This isn’t competition, its extermination.Due to our labour laws and evironmental concerns, we are at a serious dis-advantage.
These prices are artificially low and the thinking behind this is that they will flood the market and choke out all board builders, create a monopoly and then raise their prices. We’re kidding ourselves if we believe we’re going to survive on quality and uniqueness alone. The quality of their boards will only continue to rise as their factory workers become more experienced (think how fast you’d get good if you glassed 25 boards in a day). Take a look around the parking lot at a busy break. Unique is not what i see. I see alot of hurley/billabong/ripcurl clothing. The majority of surfers will buy into whatever is marketed as cool, they don’t care if the guy two spaces down is wearing the same shirt (probably made in china along with the reef sandals). Our best hope is to educate the surfing public, make chinese boards “uncool”. I don’t think we can rely on our governments to save us, did they help the shoemakers? The clothing makers? The toy makers? The government has it own agenda and it usually doesn’t include the small time business owner. For years here in British Columbia we’ve been exporting raw lumber (logs) to America, Japan and China while local saw mills shutdown and lay off all of their workers. Lots of Mc Jobs available for them. I’ve exchanged a few PM’s back and forth with “bentley” heres what he has to say:
<span style="font-size:6px"><span style="font-weight:bold">From:</span> <a href="http://www.swaylocks.com/forum/gforum.cgi?username=bentley;" class="bb-url">bentley </a>
Date Sent:
Nov 26, 2006, 7:51 PM
It seems you’re quite a radically conservative person. It doesn’t matter to me, because at last you’ll find that in the end, it’s people like you who are phased out, not me! So wish you all the best!
From my soapbox…
Find what you like and ride it… encourage others to do the same… have good taste… buy products you believe in… support prople and businesses that share your values… appriciate craftsmanship… respect the environment… respect locals and their customs everywhere you go… share… stay healthy… be strong… help others… one planet… free economy…
Different breaks require specific boards. If you want to truely rip, you better have the right equipment. Soul surfers will always be willing to pay for a magic board. Local shapers will always be the most dialed to their spot(s).
China is focused on a different customer. They target cost-concious beginers. These first time buyers, are looking for a cheap surfboard so they can explore the sport. They will then either give up or go infrequently, or step up to the next level and get a better board.
I don’t get all the fuss over Chinese boards. The ones who seem to be complaining about them are the small shapers who are against the corporate machine. You guys won’t be affected. Stay true and you’ll have people lined up for your boards. If you get bigger you’ll become part of the machine you now hate anyway.
The name-brands are already signed up for Asian manufacturing or about to be. How can they not? They want to own their customers begining to end, top to bottom, hats to socks. They want to make a profit and feed their kids.
The hi-end will always be the handshaped customs by skilled craftsmen. If you’re on of those, no worries.
I have info from a very good source that resins are being produced in China that are not
allowed here (California). The physical properties of this resin when I used it 20-25 years
ago, were noticibly superior.
Textile mills are being ramped-up for production of the next-generation of glass cloth, and
it is superior to the higher performing strands like “S-glass” etc.
Industrial designers and engineers are involved with these efforts both in materials research
and production management.
So I said “They don’t have the skills”. I was surprised to find out there are Californians,
Hawaiians, and Australians who have top skills there right now, training workers. I found
out that you can “rent” a space there, built to spec, comes with workers. At last count there
are 5 shaping machines there, and at least one has the “finish quality” capability to run
“master copies” remotely. Each worker costs US$90 per month. Access to an engineer
is about $3,000 per year.
About two weeks ago, I saw two Chinese here (I have an ear for Asian languages) taking digital
photos of some kids boards that had the latest “ghetto art” on them. Then 3 days ago I
got word that some Chinese guys were getting airbrush lessons from a local airbrush artist.
It has been a number of years since our domestic materials have been revamped at such
a great scale. There will be no impetus to import these materials to the U.S. as each
board made here is another not produced over there.
My annual production is 1/50th of one of the top overseas makers, he boasted to my
friend that he had 55,000 “units” produced under one roof in a year.
I wasn’t too alarmed, (with the writing on the wall), until a couple of weeks ago, when I
asked myself, “Will there be a business motivation to still sell surfboard materials here?”
If the big demands drop away from here (which I now know is true), then what will that
do to the price and availability of materials here?