China Invasion/ Look on Homepage

Industry Talk
41
Quote:

Please correct me if I am wrong???

Americans can sell boards all over the world at there price, they don’t expect an argument.

<span style="font-size:6px"></span>  <span style="font-size:6px">I do not know if you are wrong about surfboards, but Americans cannot just sell whatever they want in any country.  Here's and example.  The US government subsides many agricultural products -- grain in particular.  There are a number of countries around the world that will not allow US grain to be imported without high tariffs to compensate.  The reason being is they want to protect their own agriculture and see it as better to pay more at the store than crush parts of their agriculture industry.  Japan has a long opposition to US rice entering their market and have pretty much kept it out with high tariffs.  Again, it is about the notion of fair trade -- it is an every day reality in world markets.  It is illegal under US law for US board makers to sell surfboards below AVC cost to eliminate competition.  Saying its ok to bring China Boards into the US below cost is like saying its ok to bring in Hashish from Amsterdam because its legal in Holland.</span>
42

Quote: “It is illegal under US law for US board makers to sell surfboards below AVC cost to eliminate competition.” Unquote

Correct me if im wrong, but are you saying that ‘loss-leaders’ are illegal under US law??

Does that mean that most of your supermarkets operate illegally by selling certain items below cost price to attract customers??

James

43
Quote:

Quote: “It is illegal under US law for US board makers to sell surfboards below AVC cost to eliminate competition.” Unquote

Correct me if im wrong, but are you saying that ‘loss-leaders’ are illegal under US law??

Does that mean that most of your supermarkets operate illegally by selling certain items below cost price to attract customers??

James

While those items may be sold below cost for some period of time, they represent a “contribution to profit model.” Just like a car dealer may sell end of year models “below cost,” the reality being they have covered cost of inventory and fixed cost – so, if they sell the car for $1 – its a dollar of profit. Intent to elimate competition and sales below AVC cost are the triger for anti-trust. Look, everyone here should search the web and read about anti-trust law. We are only proving the point in this tread that the China importation market is certainly safe from us.

44
Quote:

I wasn’t too alarmed, (with the writing on the wall), until a couple of weeks ago, when I

asked myself, “Will there be a business motivation to still sell surfboard materials here?”

If the big demands drop away from here (which I now know is true), then what will that

do to the price and availability of materials here?

Well someone here has a signature “improvise and adapt” or the like…

In Holland there is no surfboard materials supplier. We have to figure it all out ourselves. We can get some materials from France and the UK but it is prohibitivly expensive.

Over the last two years I sorta figured out where I can get what and I ordered some expensive stuff from france just to get started. Sure there are some guys here who work the PU/PE gig and import everything. I have decided against that route and have now ordered a big block of eps to my own specification from a local insulation foam blower big enough for four 9’6" boards for the cost of one 8’ blank via the french importers!!! We get some glass from the composites industry, it ain’t Hexcel but it works. Our epoxy is problematic, locally nothing nice is available, only yellowing goop so we import from elsewhere what we can. I don’t have a clark planer, just a standard bosch, standard surform some standard sanding materials and an orbital excentric sander. You can’t even get FCS plugs locally, they cost 25 Euro a set (three fins) and then you still have shipping costs! Thank god there are still some windsurf supply guys with US boxes or that too would be a mission.

In short, it takes creativity, planning and money to organize a shaping session… But then it wouldn’t be fun if it was easy…

45

There is a difference between a loss leader, and a lower cost of goods.

A loss leader is a product that the retailer buys at wholesale price, but elects to sell it at below wholesale price. Usually with a zero or no margin.

Supermarkets make all there profits from the vendors, not from selling HBC and grocery goods to consumers. Slotting, coop dollars, reset fees, etc. all go to the bottom line in a grocery store and make the profit. Grocery chains work on skinnier margin that other industrys can’t even begin to imagine…i.e., 2-3%. Big chains like Kroger, Safeway, Albertsons/Supervalu expect growth of only 1.5-3% yearly if that. While they expect the manufacturer to increase sales 10-20%, and fund thoses sales with advertising dollars of up to 30% of Net sales.

So, a loss leader is different than just selling a cheaper product. A loss leader is a product to bait you into the store, something you buy all the time and know the price. In walmart it’s Diapers, Bandaids, and Bateries. Chains make up the difference on the other products they sell, i.e. your underwear, razor blades, and skin lotion…stuff you buy but don’t exactly know what the price is, but are willing to pay a bit more…just because

Big chains like Walmart will have specific items as loss leaders everyday, all day…drives a manufacturer crazy seeing his product retailing at or below cost. But they make it up on the rest of the stuff. So seeing a surfboard selling for $250.00 is not fair market value, it’s way below blue book. But it’s not the manufacturer’s fault, it’s the retailer’s fault. If the retailer sold those cheap China boards for the same price as a Brewer…we wouldn’t be having this discussion, and the retailer would be making more money and not complaining about poor me, I can’t make any money on a surfboard.

Resinhead

46

your right …everyone i’m back in business. besides all this controversy has stired up alot of intrest in the surfboard business…world peace… xon… xyzsurfboards.com

Quote:

Have you seen Al Merrick’s “Anacappa” line of boards from China? The finish quality is better than his CA made boards. If you site down the boards, you can see they’ve been block sanded from tip to tail… no disc marks. And they sell for $200 less than his US made boards - same $$ markup to the dealer.

It’s too late to shut down board production in China. Dealers like the boards because they can sell them for less and still make the same return. Beginers like them because they don’t really care what they ride. Manufacturers like them because it’s easy money.

In my mind, the model to look at is the guitar industry. Fender makes guitars all over the world for different consumers in different price points. You can buy a “Stratocaster” made in Korea for $120, one from Mexico for $250, one from Japan for $500, one from USA for $800, a custom shop USA model for $1,200, and masterbuilt custom shop models into the stratosphere. From ten feet away all these guitars look identical. On closer inspection, the differences become clear.

Kids learning to play and folks who want a “guitar” but aren’t that serious buy the cheap ones. People who know the difference get the best one they can afford. The Korean models get beat to crap or tossed in a closet, the custom shop models get the love other family members can only hope for. Fender has no shortage of buyers for custom shop guitars… in fact the more cheap guitars they sell, the more customs they sell. They now even have a membership program for the custom shop - and they’re at max capacity.

There will always be a market for hi-end surfboards. Serious surfers will know the difference. Education is the key to keeping custom shaping alive. The Holy Grail will always be a custom magic board. That will never come off an assembly line 200 miles from the nearest beach.

Who cares what the weekend warriors surf? Not me. Surf what works for you and you can afford. Get better, learn about differences between boards, get obsessive like the people on swaylocks, give your crappy boards to friends who want to learn to surf, build a quiver of specialized equipment. I’ve got over 30 boards in my garage - mostly customs, some off the rack, a couple Surftechs, a few Hydro Epics… they’re all good.

If you’re trying to make a living from shaping, just convince people you make great boards. Cinchy. If you make boards that serious surfers fall in love with you’ll have all the business you can handle.

47 
I haven't read this entire thread so I hope the things I say are not redundant. I'm a college student and I'm probably alot younger then the majority of people posting here at Sways, and i think it's fair to say that i come from "a different generation" then most of you. I hope to one day own my own surfboard/clothing company(been working on it since I was 16 so the wheels are already in motion). First of all, I'm a self proclaimed American patriot and in fact having been doing my offseason training with my military friends in the pararescue division, after i get my degree I'm joining.  That does not mean I agree completely with all the facts of life that come from growing up in America or it's political policies. In fact, I know I have some bad habits that I'm down right ashamed of. I don't know how I can weight lift/run/swim almost everyday and then go eat at McDonalds, but I do. I drive a SUV that gets 12 miles to the gallon and most of the time I'm probably by myself. You can see where I'm getting at, the point that I'm trying to make is that in this flooded, consumer driver, big business, capitalistic market, sometimes it's way too easy to do something that you know deep down yourself/your enviroment is going to paying for. 

I believe in looking at behaviors that come from the majority of the market, and I believe in changing these buying behaviors. I think this should be done without the majority of consumers even realizing it. What I mean is say you go the store to buy a new pair of jeans and you have two choices. You are an uneducated consumer, meaning you are not aware of the manufacturing processes that go into making these products and you are not aware of the differences between these two products. You see two pairs of pants, two different labels, and two different signs above the pants directing a marketing message to you. After reading these messages and decoding the information you realize one the pairs of pants is more durable and softer then the other pair at the same price. So which one are you going buy? The stronger/softer pair of course!

 Now without the consumer realizing it he made a choice between a pair of pants made with cotton and a slew of chemical processes in a third world country by children no older then 13 and a pair of pants made in a responsible/eco-friendly factory with say hemp processed with a new enzyme technolgy which makes fibers that are stronger/whiter/softer then cotton. 

 You can see how old technologies get phased out. We now have ALL THE TOOLS AND TECHNOLOGY we need. We can still make money, hell I see OPPORTUNITY in the future. I think the industry as a whole needs to change gears. What we are doing now and what has been going on for the last twenty years isn't going to cut it anymore. 

 So how are we going to beat China??? Sorry, but I say screw that mentality...be a smarter business man. That doesn't mean be irresponsible or ruthless. If you have  to be thug that means you're just not smart enough to do it the right way. There are surfers all over the world, and I'm sure there are plenty who live in less developed nations that would help an American business man run a factory(business) so they can both can make good livings and go surfing.

 I know change doesn't come easy and it's not going to be easy to compete with globalization. I think you have to accept the "earth is flat" reality of the 21st century. I don't believe you should comprimise your self or your ethics to make a buck. I think there's still opportunity in this growing industry...it's just going to be a little harder to find.
48

or you could just take some mushrooms

go for a frollic in the forest

watch the waves break on the beach

shag ya missus

by ya stuff at the recycle center

and forget about war

49

Shine , I really could not give two f–cks about your fruit or vegetables,I know my friends are having there arses shot off for fuel not peace and I still pay $1.50 a litre for fuel. And before we even go there I have done my time in the service.

This is a surfboard forum .

Stevil and kendal I agree with you totally. and plus one your obsevations are totally spot on .

I believe surfboards should be made by surfers and handshaping is the pinicle of the craft, It is competition . Get used to it.

50

…I have a Gretsch guitar, far better than a stratocaster

but 3 years ago, Fender bought Gretsch, and now the quality is very poor…

so the mega corporations kill everything on the world

the quality is killed by the profit and money in most stuff

-also the problem is that USA needs to believe that their products are far better…but is not true

for ex.:- cars.

-and I see a lot of production Brazilian boards (for surf shops) that sports perfect glass work, better than 1/3 of the USA boards

51

well im a accomplished guitar player and think that that the lawsuit copies from Japan were

better than the originals

and korean lawsuits were as good or better than the originals

and matons and Yari accoustics are as good or better than martins

and lately ive been trying a lot of new electrics and think that a 700$ dollar schecter

kicks ass on 2000$ fender

if there was enough money in surfboards

china would be producing boards so good at so cheap it would be all over

and BRAND is the only thing that would keep industry players alive

53

…you re right about the guitars

like I said before, I see it all the time

and for ex. if one of those Chinese Factories make near 20 000 boards per year (like they say); well, I think, now they ve got Chinese shapers that achieved (without a clue in design may be) several Thousands each one…so now they ve developed skills I think

54

…I agree with your post

minus the “…if you do …youll survive…nothing else matters” part

may be you ll survive in several things, but not making boards

because now is the start of a new generation of surfboards with material and techniques that in the future only the corporations or the rich ones will have access…

and PU surfboard foam will tend to disappear

also, the polystyrene foam doing with the classical techniques are not better than the PU /poly performance

so that s not a solution…

so what you do?

find a job in one of those megacorps?

only a couple of brands and several shapers could be survive

55

those with the gumption and heart to survive will

those that don’t won’t.

Couple of examples that local hawaiians might understand the rest can google it.

Positive Adaption to a Negative Change:

Artist - Pegge Hopper (Stricken with ALS or Lou Gehrig’s disease)

her art is as beautiful today as it ever was although she now has to paint with her mouth with an assistant

Artist - Bethany Hamilton (Arm bitten off at shoulder)

her surfing still is as good as if not better than many girls or boys her age and she still competes

Negative Adaption to a Negative Change

Workers - Del Monte Pineapple Cannery workers

Del Monte pulls the plug one year earlier than planned almost no one of the hundreds of displaced workers seems prepared for the future. Everyone one is looking at the state and government to bail them out even though they were advised of the coming termination in 2008 a year ago.

Wolfpack/Pipeline Posse

the intense pressure of overcrowded lineups leads to vigilante localism to “regulate” what’s now a herd mentality in the water and on land.

Hawaiian Sovereignty Movement

The same overt reaction to the “I gotta get mine too” mentality to the overcrowding of the island but on a more socially acceptible front. Same concept of trying to regulate what’s left to the regulators.

Craftsmen have survived thousands of years of change by adjusting to their environment and available resources. Those that didn’t moved on to another “occupation” which is really what they were doing while fooling themselves into believing they were “artists”.

There’s alot of guys out there with the skills to make a masterpiece out of a molehill even it requires that they blow their own foam, glue up their own blanks, or build it out of dried scraps of wood. Just look at the Hawk and how he got started with railroad ties and sign posts. There’s ways to get around most challenges with some creativity and alot of commitment.

Just like how Stretch learned to shape with his other hand, those that want to stay in the game will do what it takes to stay committed. They are the silent minority out there just doing their thing day to day focused becoming better at making someone happy with their work versus making a living off their work just to buy something to make themselves happy.

In the end everyone will end up in life where they choose to put themselves that’s all

It’s up to you to decide whether that’s a good thing or bad thing.

56

…we ll see in the future

when after all the media crap and whatever

what most surfers will buy

because you ll become a master shaper, but

ist very difficult to became one if you dont sell nuthin (profits, time wasted in other job, without surfers feedback, feed the family)

and like you said that you can use other materials

yep, but with others material the design needs changes

and to do investigation, you need money, surfers, etc

57

at least in the west we got option to be hippies

and have a choice

i dont subscride to any of that hyped up consumer trash

got no gameing console

no new cloths

old car

old recycled furniture

etc etc

everytime i see some young toss pot walking around in surf label cloths it makes me wanna spew

99%percent of them couldnt even bodysurf

they think there so cool with there LOST punk rock thrusters

that they flail around on in the white wash

thats what the chinese industry is providing for

mindless consumerism

speaking of guitars

i learned to play on some pretty off guitars

didnt even get one over 100$ for atleast four or five years

now every man and his dog is a wanna be rockstar

thrashing out muted power chords on 3000 dollar electrics

what about the music?

i think that bernie is so right

if your skilled and you can do somethings and adapt easily

you will always be able to make a living.

sell your service!

hell im such a dud board builder but even im starting to get orders

because people enjoy being part of the process and the fun

i think that retailers have ruined many trades

im a jeweller and its the greed of retailers and there flash lifestlyes that have ruined my trade

I hate them for that

anyway its only a mater of time before alot of them start to crash and burn

what with internet buying etc

and it will be oh boo hoo poor me

58

Some Gretsches were better than some Strats. I’ve owned several Gretsches - Chet Atkins 6120, White Falcon, Corvette x 2, Duo Jet, cheapie Syncromatic,etc - and a bunch of Strats - at least 20 or so… In fact, I’ve owned over 500 guitars through the years… Gretsch made fine (not great) guitars until the late 60’s when they sold out to Baldwin. Baldwin made Gretsches sucked big time, then they had two separate fires and shut down production. Fred Gretsch III bought the name back in 1985 started making guitars again, and sold out to Fender a few years ago. Some (very few) are made in the US. Most are made in Japan. They are not the same. Masterbuilt Customshop Strats kick ass on ALL new Gretsch guitars… actually ALL Gretsch guitars. Cheap Strats suck… actually (in my opinion) all cheap guitars suck, but thy have their purpose.

Now here’s how this relates to this thread - Gretsch and Fender are both (the same) “name brand” products. If you’ve got wads of cash, you can have them make you a custom hi-end guitar. Otherwise, they make what they can sell at a decent markup. There are more independent guitar makers now than ever before, so if you want something made for you by skilled craftsmen, your choices are better than ever. The luthiers I know (there are a lot of them) are all booked months and even years in advance. Their customers know the difference, and pay for quality. Steve Grimes prices start at around $8k and go way up… he’s fully booked for the next three years.

Same thing with surfboards… Those who’ve been around know a good quality board when they see it. If you’re an experienced surfer, you should have an idea if a board will work for you by looking at it and touching it. If you can’t tell the difference… who cares what you buy. Not me.

I’m a snob when it comes to my toys. I like well made guitars. I like well designed surfboards, I like really cute (and smart) girls. I care about the quality of the things I spend intimate moments with. I don’t have time to waste on crappy stuff. I don’t have time to care about how others spend their time or money. Live and let live.

59

…well, a friend of mine is friend of one of those rockstars luthiers…

he s in London, but is too expensive (to live an expensive life…)

so he plans to live in Buenos Aires (Argentina) and only make 2 guitars per year

but for ex.: K Richards is 1 of his custumers…

this is not the surfboards case…

and if you dont have materials, what board can you make?

(see other comment)

so, you buy chicks?

and my Gretsch is not 50 s one, but I d compared with old Fenders…and the Gretsch always win

also the stratos (60 s ) sound tiny when you needs ball sounds…

and Fender took the corp 4 years ago or so

and like I said in the other comment, the few that I saw, arent good

and a Gretsch with filtertron is better than with dearmond for rock

the Tennessean arent good

the silver jets are very nice solid

60
Quote:

this is not the surfboards case…

and if you dont have materials, what board can you make?

(see other comment)

so, you buy chicks?

and a Gretsch with filtertron is better than with dearmond for rock

I don’t see that much difference between making custom surfboards and making custom guitars. It used to be guitar makers could buy woods from all over the place… then you couldn’t get Brazilian rosewood, or Honduran mahogony, or Sitka spruce, or whatever. Now luthiers are trying all kinds of alternative woods and other materials to make guitars. Even companies like Martin are making models from things like redwood, alumimun, carbon fiber, pressboard, and anything else that works. They had to adapt with the times. The good guitar makers produce the best insruments they can with what’s available. They have loyal customers who want their personal attention and a customized product. Surfboard makers are in the same boat. If you can’t get a Clark blank, you use what you can. If you can’t get polyurethane, use EPS, XPS, straw, chewing gum… whatever you can make work. Innovatinve thinkers will find a way to make boards that surf well. Surfers will seek these shapers out and line up to buy their boards. At Hydro Epic we made boards from carbon, kevlar, and aluminum. Not what everyone else was using, but the boards work.

I don’t buy chicks… buying them would be cheaper in most cases. I’m happily attached to a surfer chick currently, so I don’t even look anymore (haha). Acutally I don’t always buy guitars or surfboards either. Since I spend time in the music and surf industries, a lot of stuff is given to me, or traded, or whatever. You always end up paying somehow… sometimes cash is cheaper. I also believe in supporting those who need and deserve it, so even when I can get “bro deals” I like to pay full pop.

My 61 Chet Atkins and my 72 White Falcon both had Filtrons, and they both totally rocked. I used to think Strats were crap… I’ve even (don’t tell anyone) modified a bunch of pre-CBS ones to make them play better… hindsight. I’ve had a few Custom Shop Strats that were unbelievable though… way better than anything Gretsch ever made (also wayyy more expensive). Back when I used to think I was going to surf and play guitar for a living I considered myself a Gibson guy. Now I think of guitars like I think about boards - whatever works… should work good, feel good, and make me want to take it to bed with me at night. I usually take new surfboards and guitars to bed with me the first night… luckily it’s OK with my girlfriend.