A friend of mine just weighed himself with and without his wet 5/4/3 hooded fullsuit, 7mm boots and 5mm gloves after we talked about it while surfing here in New Jersey on New Year’s Day. The difference was 9.5 pounds.
I have a bunch of fish tanks in my house. I measure the density with a hydrometer. The difference in a few degrees is significant enough to throw off my salinity measurements. If lower temperatures make a hydrometer float higher, why wouldn’t it make a surfboard float higher?
The difference between a cubic meter of 75 degree water and 35 degree water (typical for New Jersey) is about 4.5kg… that’s about 10lbs. You might not consider that significant, but I do, especially when it’s coming down on your head… fun stuff. I wonder how much water’s in the lip of a four foot wave? Anyway…
That aside, the point of my post was that flotation didn’t make a difference to me, or to a lot of people, who surf in water that’s significantly different in temperature from summer to winter. Yes, a wet wetsuit adds weight. But the water’s more dense, so they would tend to mitigate each other.
Just trying to include the facts…
The difference in density of the water is 4.5kg/1000kg (for a cubic meter) or ~0.5%. Not a big deal. Add 0.2liter to a 35liter board and you got that covered. The best surfers around here surf the same board here as the one they use to travel. And they make it work.It keeps surprising me how small boards these guys surf in crappy waves and still make it work.
I think the difference between a 5/4 and no wetsuit or thinner wetsuit is more in the mobility/feel. Add that the surf may be a little different between summer/winter and Canaries/Northern Europe… It always surprises me how much easier it is to surf with less wetsuit. Just loosing the gloves, hood and boots make me feel like I improve my surfing by a large amount. Sadly, when the winter comes it’s back to norm.
Maybe it's me or the spare tire slowly growing around my waist but an “average beach break groveller” @ 5’11”x 18 1/8”x 2 1/8” doesn't have enough volume regardless of wetsuit or not.
I recommend getting into the 19" - 19 1/2" range or more for a "groveller". More surface area and volume will help get the most out of weaker waves.
P.S. I hate wetsuits but they keep us alive in the winter so I guess it's a good thing :)
~Brian
Right… as a percentage it seems insignificant. But in absolute numbers, it seems like it matters. One of those numbers games…
My contention is that the difference is NOT in float/boyancy. The difference is in mobility. My guess is that’s why a lot of people feel they need a little extra volume.
Greenlight, (Brian) I’m going to assume surfer69 has his sh*t down pretty good to balk so mightily at a suggestion that his solution is 1/4" more width. Either that or very conservative.
Surfer 69 I wouldn’t underestimate how much slower your reaction times are in the cold and with all the extra neoprene especially if you are used to a 2mm shorty. Where do you wear that in the UK? Your timing is likely a little off and it can rob you of power also. Best solution is to surf more aggressively ( in a nice way!), Putting maximum energy into every wave will keep you warm and compensate for the lack of push from the wave/board/weight issue.
However I am interested in what parts of a board to change to make a board more lively? Would extra volume down the centre with a more domed deck be the answer. Increased concave? Stiffer? Better/different fins?
Surfer69 is this a thruster? Have you tried different fins? Perhaps change it to a Quattro with McKee’s own formula? Maybe you just need a ‘bigger engine’ as you don’t have problems catching the waves only keeping the speed up?
I admire jonnyshapers confidence that a phone call to UK shaper will get a ‘better’ board. I share surfer69’s pessimism though. Not a hope in hell unless the shaper can see the existing board.
When I looked at having a board sent from Italy I was quoted buy the owner about £70. It seems that courier fees are cheaper from the rest of Europe than from the UK.
I would contact McKee and get his suggestions as he will know this board inside out even if you cant practically buy from him I am sure he will be free with good info.
Mark
If only that were true…
Well yes you’re right it was an exaggeration as I don’t live where the water is seriously cold. Hope surfer69 comes back and tells us what he decided and how it worked out for him. I’m betting he buys a Firewire over the internet.
Mark
Thanks everyone for your comments and feedback.
It’s interesting to hear the varying perspectives you craftsmen have on the effects of wetsuits – you’ve all given me much to think about.
My own experiences have taught me plenty about these effects, but finding suitable remedies is not only complex, it’s dam confusing!
As was so perfectly described by one commentator, my particular circumstances necessitate I bite the bullet. And I have, but before I tell I want to surmise and share what I’ve learnt so far.
I attempted to contact McKee directly but as of yet I’ve had no reply; I’ve had convo’s with as many ‘board people’ as I know; and I’ve read as much board design theory as I could find: the recurring themes that I’ve been coming across have been to:
· Flatten out the rocker
· Flatter deck
· Boxier rails
· Bottom contours – some say put in a double to single concave, others say single all the way
· Add a bit of width [to varying degrees]
· Add a bit of thickness [to varying degrees]
· Just surf bigger waves on your bigger board and be done with grovelling in freezing conditions!
· Buy a longboard!
Some comments have been more helpful than others; like one piece of advice to change the outline more than the dimensions themselves... i.e. to go for a model that’s not a ‘shortboard’ as such; specifically, to go for a model that’s more like a ‘flyer’ – something with a wider, more ‘hipped’ tail: keeping everything else relatively similar.
This particular bit of advice, and the reasoning behind it, appealed greatly to my understanding of my circumstances. I therefore began the search of what’s available out there [UK market] that met with this particular ideology. There are a range of boards out there: Simon Andersons ‘Interceptor’, Al Merrics ‘Flyer’, DHDs ‘Coffee Bean’, and plenty more, that would fit the bill – if the dimensions were right.
The only “suitable” stock board that I found, which I’ve gone for, is a Chilli step down – 5’11” x 18 3/8” x 2 3/16”. I have a subtle apprehension that this is going to be too much board for my style of surfing – especially given the extra wide tail of this thing – 14 ¼”! But, without ordering a UK custom shape, or paying exorbitant import duties, I consider this to have been the best choice from what was on offer.
I find hope in the fact that it is ¼” wider and 1/8” thicker than my “bench mark board”, so it fits within the scope of advice I’ve found in this particular thread of discussion.
I‘ll have it in the water soon – I’ll update you on its performance [how I perceive it’s performance anyways!]
Thanks again for all your input.
[quote="$1"]
S#!T S#!T S#!T.............
I'VE BOUGHT INTO SOME DESIGN PHILOSOPHY WHICH HAS RESULTED IN ME GETTIN A DOG!
FRICK!
Note to self and everyone else out there - find a GOOD shaper and build a STRONG relationship with them...
ANYONE WANNA BUY A BOARD?!
[/quote]
so what is it?
Yeah that is the UK market I think, I’m part of it, and some of our local shaper shape absolute dogs. The boards are glassed way too lightly to cut costs and the shaping can be someone sketchy. I think the thing is, our waves over here arent that powerful and our boards still break in them, because of the Sh*tty glass jobs, so I think a lot of us buy boards from the states etc, because we think that theyve been designed and tested in better waves. Also, the fact is, my local shaper wants 375 a board, and boards like channel islands, jc, have some really nice shapes and you can readily try them out and see the specs. So if you picture thi scenareo, “Hi Bill, can you shape me a copy of the MBM+” Its gonna end up taking no longer, as the shapers are always one man deals for the shaper, and one man for the glasser etc, possibly a ding repair guy. Its going to only be about 30 pounds cheaper as, you can bring boards back from the states, like theres always someone going over there on a holiday or something like that. Also, When you come to sell boards, You have No Idea how much the big brands sell for, Everyone seems to just want the big names, and You can pay £350 over here for a second hand al merrick, and its only like £400 for a new one in the states.
at least you can get a decent choice of warm wetsuit booties in the UK, my mates shop in Wales has a huge range of 5mm ones, can only get 3mm here. It doesn’t get as cold in Vicco, but even so its not just me who complains of getting cold in 4mm suits in winter. Can’t get the 5mm XCEL or 5mm ripcurl here, but the ridiculously expensive H-Bomb and almost as expensive Patagonia wool lined suit can be bought. Ordinary 3mm and 4mm suits are reasonably priced here though.
Riding69, I don’t think 14 1/4" is excessively wide for a tail at all. I think its a good width. What sort of construction did you get? http://www.chillisurfboards.com/surfboards/stepdown
Coz I ride oversize I like light boards so I can throw them around.
Odd that you can’t get thicker Rip Curls, as they started out in Torquay. Do they not have a presence in VC anymore?
yes Rip Curl wetsuits are still very popular in Vic, the affordable e-bomb is the most common, I’ve only ever seen one person in the expensive battery heated suit. however 4mm is the thickest that can be bought in Australia, but they distribute the 5mm suit to other parts of the world. I’ve never been familiar with water temps, but I just did an internet search. I think its between 18 - 20 C at the moment in Vic and its middle of summer. I think it gets below 16 in winter. If I’m off the mark someone correct me please. Most will wear booties and hood in winter but no gloves (thats my winter wear too).
Riding69 I hope you come back and tell us what you don’t like about the board. Presumably you are catching every wave as you are now on a flatter wider thicker board designed for crap waves and you were having no probs before on your performance shortboard. So its something about the way the board rides?
I am still interested in where you relocated from to be using a 2mm suit and a performance shortboard for grovelling. Are you now getting worse waves (more onshore and smaller with lower waveperiod ) now you are in winter Scotland?
I got an email back same day from Bruce recently (I asked a question about his Quad positioning).
Edited waffle.
Mr J for years I have been wearing and advocating a 4/3 for summer here. At last they are catching on and available in the UK more. Still usually have to import from USA or France (where I think they are for winter). 3/2 was never warm enough for anything except the hight of summer so I only use one for swimming.
The wetsuit supply is a bit of a mare with brands selling out and no more being imported that year. If you don’t get in early you risk not being able to get one. Strange I can get one sent from abroad in 10 days but the distributor cannot get one for me. Lazy.
Mark
S#!T S#!T S#!T.............
I'VE BOUGHT INTO SOME DESIGN PHILOSOPHY WHICH HAS RESULTED IN ME GETTIN A DOG!
FRICK!
Note to self and everyone else out there - find a GOOD shaper and build a STRONG relationship with them...
ANYONE WANNA BUY A BOARD?!
99% of the surfers in NJ I know ride the same board winter spring summer and fall. If the waves are different in winter get a small wave specialty board. And greenlight, 60kg is about 132lbs. as someone who is 145lbs I can tell you a 6’0" x19"x2 3/8" is WAY to wide and big especially when hoping of a 5’10"x18 1/8"x 2 1/8". Riding69 my suggestion is to get used to riding the same board when the waves are good year round and get a groveller when it is super weak.
I cold aside I would rather pull into a 8ft barrel in 80 degree water and get pounded than pull into a 6ft barrel in 35 degree water and get pounded. Wether it is the suit, a figment of a collective imagination or the density of cold water, ceterus perabus beatings are so much more violent and scary in cold water.
Over the years I've developed a ''sense'' for how adaptable surfers are. Some guys would get exactly what they wanted from going a little wider and thicker. Some guys, and I had that feeling you were one, are better off keeping everything the same but adding hidden foam. At least a couple of us advised you in that direction.
I’m one of those surfers who just gets used to the winter wettie and doesn’t seek board adjustments. I agree that his board size to weight ratio is quite high for a HP shortboarder, however there are a few of us like myself who go for that sort of ratio - its still much lower than funboarding or longboarding and for me it works.
This is an interesting thread and one of the reasons I didn’t answer is that I felt due to riding oversize boards - I’m 55kg on 6’ 1" x 18 3/8 x 2 3/8 I had gone beyond that marginal flotation/planing balance and therefore a 1/4" here or there makes no difference to my winter wettie (the heaviest of which is a 5mm XCEL with attached hood - bought from the UK coz can’t get that thickness here). So I felt not qualified to answer based on my experience. However I suppose as you said Riding69 is already in the oversize range. BTW I wear such thick wetties coz I’d much rather be warm and heavy than light and cold.
I think his choice of going for something just a little bigger all over is worth a shot seeing as Riding69’s feeling he needs something extra. I can’t see how volume is going to help when up and riding (he says paddling is not the problem) but its a stock board which comes with the extra volume and an extra 1/8" in the middle certainly wouldn’t affect me provided the rails are comparable.