Compensating for winter wetsuit weight

General Discussion
1

I’m looking at ways of beefing up my “average beach break groveller” so that it’ll carry my additional winter wetsuit guff that I’m now resigned to wearing...

I weigh in [without the neoprene] at 60kg and normally ride a 5’11”x 18 1/8”x 2 1/8” for grovelling.

Neoprene consists of a 5:4 suit, boots, gloves, hood.

With all the extra weight of rubber by board just doesn’t perform. I need more foam. But how do I get it? Length, width, thickness? How will it affect my boards performance? And how much extra do I go for? Arrrrgh!!! So many questions...

I’ve relocated up in Scotland and there’s no decent shapers here to talk to/work with, so I’m looking to rack boards to provide the float I need...but I don’t know what I need!!!!

Any input as I scour the digital surfboard racks to help guide me would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance for your comments and suggestions.

2

add half an 1/4" in width, and 1/8" in thickness, keep the rails the same though, dont just try to beef them out with extra foam or it will sacrifice performance more than adding it in width and thickness. Experiment with rocker too, A slightly flatter board may help.

3

Half an 1/4"? An 1/8th?

What if I just increase the length to a 6’0”? Would that work?

Or is it better to up all the dimensions...to like a 6’0” x 18 3/16”x 2 3/16”

Or would I need still to go bigger....

HELP!!!

4

Ding ding, we have a winner.   Any given year, I surf in water temps between low 30’s and high 70’s due to seasonal swings.

 

Blow the dims out a little as johnnyshaper recommends (including the “nose” (1’ back from nose) and “tail” (1’ up from tail).  Don’t forget to adjust the tailblock width as well to keep the rail-line curve the same back there as well, unless you WANT a more pulled-in tail.  Remember that adding width not only adds a surprising amount of foam and flotation, but achieves a planing-surface advantage as well.

 

I advise you keep the rails the same or add only SLIGHTLY more volume (imperceivable to the eye, only just noticeable to the hand when holding the board under-arm).

 

Remember, if you add length, it is going to “fit” differently into the curve of the face.  This could be good or bad, but since  you mentioned beefing up your average board, I’m thinking along the lines of keeping it the same.

5

Yeah, Adding 1/4 in width is going to make it a lot easier to paddle than adding an extra inch in length but it is going to be easier to adjust t than the extra inch would be. I would go for 5’11 by 2 1/4 by 18 3/8.

6

I’m totally scuppered ‘cause I’m going to have to buy an altogether NEW board, as the groveller I’m riding is a McKee, purchased in the Canaries off the rack...I can’t go back to the shop – too far from Scotland...can’t go to the McKee factory either – even further!

I’m scuppered more ‘cause I’m gonna be buying “blind” over the internet. The subtleties of rail shape, volume distribution, rocker line, can to my limited understanding, never be purely described in surfers vernacular! Leaving me, without actually seeing and feeling these design elements, totally ignorant to what I’m buying!!!! And lost!!! I won’t really know if what I’m buying is going to be anything like my McKee, and that’s okay, I’m fine with that. But, it’s gotta float me and let me surf at least close to how I want to surf.

Anyone know if the above dimensions I mentioned – as ambiguous as they are – would be sufficient to carry my extra weight when wrapped in rubber????

7

just ring up a custom shaper in the UK and get him to ship. Chances are if this is a custom and your last one was off the rack, if you explain your desires and ability as much as you can, you will probably end up with a better board for you than to start with.

8

Thanks JS and Hackeysacky. But 1/4" extra width sounds like a lot of extra foam, I don't mean to be dismissive but I’d need A LOT of convincing to put that much on one of my boards. There has to be other options. I won't buy UK custom shapes 'cause I’ve not had the resources to build any decent shaping relationships - plus I’ve had too many custom shapes come out nothing like what I’d anticipated as a grom. Total dogs. Once burnt twice shy and all that...

Over the last 15 years I've found what works best is to get a final product under your arm; then you'll know if it'll work. Only trouble is I now have a tonne of rubber to contend with...and no shops...!

Isn’t there a magic shaping formula for working out weight to volume ratios or something? Anybody?

9

I no longer know what your question is since we just gave you a “formula” to adjust your board accordingly.  My recommendations come from 17+ years of surfing year-round in all sorts of rubber thicknesses (and starting back when 5 mils were, albeit a huge improvement over thier predecessors, so restrictive it was a struggle to just move your arms and legs, nevermind paddle around and actually surf in them).

 

I do understand your plight of having custom-shaped boards arrive nothing like what you (think) you described.  I agree with “I’ve found what works best is to get a final product under your arm; then you’ll know if it’ll work.”  However, your current location and lack of direct access to resources leaves you no choice.  You only options are to catch the ear (via phone or email) of a well-established and reputable shaper (have you tried to contact McKee and inquire about shipping to your current location?), pull the trigger, and hope for the best, or… shape your own to your own standards.

10

Do you know the volume of the 5'11'' you're riding?

11

For years… in fact, most of my life, I rode the same board winter and summer, from water temps in the thirties, to upper seventies… even in the eighties when I traveled. Never did I feel I needed more volume to compensate for a winter suit. Your suit is less dense that water, so you don’t really notice the added weight when paddling. You notice the decrease in ease of mobility, but not weight. Only when you’re up and riding might you consider the added weight. But, at lower temps, water becomes more dense, so there’s actually more energy in a four foot cold water wave than a four foot warm water wave. In fact, geologists have measured the erosion rates of rocky coastlines, and concluded that the difference in energy is significant… erosion rates in cold water are greater than warm water with similar wave size and rock type. So what I’m saying is, I don’t believe you need a significant amount of volume added to a cold water board. I’d add only thickness. I would not change length or width, and I’d try to hide any change in rail volume created by the added thickness. Changing length changes rocker and most likely rail curve, tail width, etc. Changing width changes rail curve, fin placement, and all kinds of stuff you don’t want to mess with.

Just add some thickness…

12

You say the board doesn’t perform.  How?

If you can’t catch waves, then stick with it and you’ll get used to the rubber (given your other constraints).  Been there, done that.

If it’s while you’re riding the waves, then it’s unlikely volume’s the culprit - more likely tail/rail (thickness).

13

I kinda-sorta agree with NJsurfer here… I usually just wind up riding the same boards year round, BUT when I had/have the finances/luxury to have two similar shapes for different “suit conditions”, I go a little wider (usually +1/4" and maybe a hair (1/16") thicker to compensate more for the reduced mobility due to the winter suit, less for the weight issue (which I consider real, but relatively slight).  For that reason I tend to add a slight increase in width for planing up a little earlier and higher, NOT thickness for float, per se, but if the overall behavior of the reference board can be preserved but a slight float/paddle advantage can be achieved in the modified board, I usually go for it (if intrigued by these comments, you should also wish you were a fly on the wall as I discussed this topic with Mike Daniel at Coil via some lengthy emails and phonecalls recently).

 

Also important to note is my complaints with boards are often thickness-derived (more rail volume= feels way different (“corky”), more thickness= less flex, etc.).  You can check my comments on p 9 of the Coil Ride Reports thread for more context.

 

And yes, the changes-in-width-and-outline-lead-to-changes-in-relative-fin-position-and-thus-changes-to-performance puzzle is a sticky wicket.  I usually let the shaper resolve that (hence my recommendation, if you get to this point of R&D,  to work with an established and proven shaper).

14

Thank you everybody for your input so far and for your willingness in helping me tackle this “sticky wicket” (hackysaky).

I think it’ll help to clarify the objective of my posts if I define a few things [atleast attempt to]

1.)    Board/Use: 5’11”x 18 1/8”x 2 1/8” it’s a ‘performance shortboard’ for weak, gutless, junky surf [swell in the 5-8 seconds periods] in the knee to shoulder/head high range.

2.)    Problem: Because these waves don’t inherently have much power or push to them, the additional weight of my neoprene translates to the board loosing it’s ‘lively’ feel. The board is slower and seems now more to be pushing water – it’s not flying over it, like when I’m in a 2mm shortie...

I weigh in at roughly 60kg. The wet weight of my winter gear is roughly 5kg – roughly a 10% increase in gross body mass.

I’m obviously not ‘good enough’ to ride this particular board with this additional weight. Something, design wise, needs to happen to the above board to compensate for this additional girth – I suppose the addition of ‘something’; thus the desire to “beef up” the board.

So, the objective of these posts is to gather the collective insights from the wealth of knowledge that is accessible through the Swaylocks shaping community; to best equip me in making the most informed decision I can when making an off the rack purchase.

The tacit knowledge available in communities like this is immeasurable, priceless – as has already displayed by those who have contributed posts so far – and a huge help to the less technically knowledgeable among us: of which I am one! A mere surfer – not a crafts man.

Hackysaky – I’ve considered, and have not yet ruled out, contacting McKee for his input. But as far as getting one board sent over – the cost implications of this are far too great to be seriously considered. I know I am for sure going to be pulling the trigger and hoping whatever choice I make is a good one; I just want my hope to based on good logic and not just blind reason!

Mike Danie – As far as volume goes – i have no idea. I just know that in summer with little to no neoprene the board is magic – in winter, with the rubber, it turns into a beast...

NJ Surfer – fascinating post – thanks. It makes sense that colder water is denser...I’ve always thought that larger cold water waves pack more of a punch that their warm water counterparts. And  now the geologists have proof hey! Ace. But, like I said – this board is for grovelling the weak, gutless stuff which don’t have the power to compensate for the additional weight.

Red Boards – The board’s a great paddler and actually paddles ok with the extra rubber – it’s just when up an riding that I really have issues...

All – a consensus seems to be in increasing thickness, if this alone is to be the key, is an 1/8” as already suggested, a good guide to run with?

I hope I’m not starting to sound like I’m flogging a dead horse here with this thread, I’m just trying to understand...

15

Since you've said you're going to be ''buying blind'' over the 'net, and not taking your board to a shaper for reference, I guess you're looking for a ''model'' recommendation. That's where you're flying blind without knowing the volume of the board you're riding and the volume of the one you're buying.

IMO what you're looking for is the same board with 4 or 5% more foam ''hidden'' on center - increases your deck dome a little, but maintains status quo on rest of board.

16

Put some water in a tub.  Throw your wetsuit in – get it all soaking wet.  All of my wetsuits float to the surface.  That means, the more wetsuits I wear, the more buoyant I will be.  The more buoyant I am, the less help I need from additional foam.

Guess I’m going to be the only kook who disagrees.  Seems to me you need less volume for winter wetsuit compensation.  You may well need more board for bigger waves, more paddle, more speed, etc, but if we are talking solely about compensation for more neoprene, then you need less board, not more, imho.  

I think a semi-accurate way to compensate would be to take the wetsuit you wear when it’s not winter, and measure it’s buoyancy from the (part of you that is under water, maybe somewhere on your rib cage) on down.  Then do the same for your winter suit.  The change in buoyancy is the delta to compensate via adjustments in foam volume, assuming you want everything else to stay the same.

For me, it’s about one rib’s worth.  I sink to not quite the middle of my rib cage on my shortboard in a summer suit, and with a 4/3 + booties on, I’m about one rib higher in the water.

Maybe I have weird wetsuits

 

17

I didn't want to get into this, but now that you bring it up....

You're right, wetsuits are bouyant. Ask any diver. But only part of the wetsuit is submerged when paddling, the rest is above the waterline and is extra weight (force) against the bouyancy. If you're high and (sorta) dry on a longboard, it's all extra. As soon as you stand up, it's all extra.

If you're swimmin' your board anyway, the wetsuit could actually help in terms of wave-catching. But then you have to stand up.

That said, there's not enough diff with modern wetsuits for most of the good surfers I know to change their boards one bit wetsuit/no wetsuit. But the OP felt he needed a little more foam, so I'll sign off the hijack.

18

A long standing debate is the one about how much weight is gained in a fullsuit that’s soaking wet. riding69 says his suit weighs 5kg when wet. I’m skeptical. That’s 11 lbs. Terry Hendricks, Phd did a test some years back for this exact situation. He saw a gain of about 4 lbs, as I recall. This was back when suits were not as light and ‘high tech’ as they are today. Your suit would have to be all ballooned up to retain a volume of water. The only part of a suit that really saturates is the lining, and that’s pretty damn thin. Many newer suits use material that is pretty impervious to saturation. A gallon of salt water weighs a little over 8 lbs.  My 6/5/4 Rip Curl Elasto that’s failry old only weighs 3 lbs. A suit would have to retain nearly a gallon of water to give an increase of 5kg. No way.

Someone else brought up the fact that neoprene is buoyant. That’s only a factor when the suit is submerged. Doesn’t mean a thing when you’re up and riding.

As someone who has surfed some of the coldest conditions imaginable over many decades, I will state that wetsuits are a factor in paddling and mobility to some degree.  I always keep a slightly bigger board on hand for Winter. More because the waves are bigger, on average. But, I have also used my typical ‘grovel’ board in Winter. A little bit tougher to paddle in a fullsuit, but no difference in performance.

19

 

The erosion data is most likely a long term sample. The energy difference in single waves with different water temps is so neglible as to not be a factor, at all. A much greater determinant of energy is wave period, which is completely independent of temperature. There are so many variables from wave to wave that temp and relative density are a non issue.

20

I found the write up regarding wet vs dry wetsuit weight by Terry Hendricks. While he goes by the name “sdbchguy” in certain internet circles, I know this to be him. If you have any doubts about his credentials, Google his name.

 

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.surfing/msg/c4fc8b58276a4b97