how’s the story go?
surf’s better than anything you can imagine…
impossible to dent…
lasts forever…
ya bra, someting la dat…
yeah boy!
looks like bamboo sheets…
but like Gary Young warned us about that sleight of hand visual…
tests like that only make sense if you plan on surfing your board upside down fins up(although we used to do that over the shallows).
The test makes sense for skateboards and skiis which have the arc
or…
if there was a strategically placed internal springer with that arc on the inside of the board
The proper test is fins on, fins down maybe with some soft pillow or memory foam under it and standing on it in the middle of the board’s concave deck to see how the board bends and where… That’ll prove bert’s bottom morphing theory.
here’s a suggestion for some one out there
take the board to one of those mattress places and try the test on one of their memory foam beds using some real small fins in the slots
I think that there is a lot of misunderstanding about what standing upside down on a board signifies. When you just see the picture you the “Yeh, it goes flat, big deal”. However, when you stand on the board in real life there is a noticable difference in how much force it takes to flatten out. The greater the force the less likely the board will deform under real life surfing conditions. The second piece of info that you don’t get from a photo is how quickly it springs back into shape. This is the real reason to have flex in a board. I’ve had my boards end up all over the flex spectrum, but if I stood on them and took pictures of them they would all look like they flexed the same (whether I was standing on the deck of bottom), but they would feel very different to the person standing or surfing them.
By the way Dave, thats a very nice looking board!
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so here’s the question
when you stand on an upside down board on the opposite side of the rocker you’re flattening the rocker utilizing the built in flex to cause the snap back.
when you stand on a board rightside up how then are you flattening out the rocker?
if the board flexes the same way it does when you stand on it upside down aren’t you just increasing the rocker and not getting the same type of flex response you get when standing on top of it against the rocker?
Its a simple question that isn’t being answered…
hence the slight of hand trick…
now there was discussion(i believe you were the main driver) of the use of an internal springer in an curve opposite of the rocker to provide some of this springer effect we see when standing on a board upside down. Kind of like the suspension arms in a car.
I really think it’s only what’s happening in the last 18" regarding flex that bert’s fooling around with. That’s where it makes the most sense to have such a compress release effect since thats where most of the action is going on…
I don’t believe the whole board morphing like the upside down test shows provides any benefit. Almost every board made can do that. It’s like you said its the speed of the spring and retention of the spring that you can’t see in these trick shots that one needs to pay attention to. Like what does it look like after 5000 or 10000 cycles of the same test. That’s where this stuff shines…
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I really think it’s only what’s happening in the last 18" regarding flex that bert’s fooling around with. That’s where it makes the most sense to have such a compress release effect since thats where most of the action is going on.
I’ve come to believe its much more complex than that. As I see it each part of a board has its own special requirements based on the wave and its rider.
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of the use of an internal springer to provide some of this springer effect
It does. A surfer like cj3 would definately benifit from on, but I’m not enough of a power surfer to benifit. I’ve found a better mix for my style.
I bought a 6’6" Flexfire. The spring effect of this board is like nothing I have ever experienced. It’s a kin to carving a snowboard or a flexy skateboard. So far the spring effect seems to generate a lot of speed. It loads up and then you change rails or pump and it then unloads the tension. If it had any delay in the release then I think the flex benifit would be lost. I hope this is something that Firewire has engineered into the board for the coarse of a normal life time. Having a highly durable surfboard in perfect condition and then to have the spring/return decay would be a disaster.
The flex in these boards is so unique that it is misleading to compare them to traditional surfboard flex patterns. It really is spring/return. I am curious where this type of spring/return is going to take my surfing. It is a new sensation and unique but is it really better? So far it is an exciting feeling.
I wonder if shorter/wider designs like the fish versions benifit from spring as much? If the board is essentially not much longer than your stance. Weighting and unweighting your legs could leverage the board to do the same thing?
Here’s another question regarding flexing the board upside down- when flexing, the board is under tension on the bottom and comnpression on the deck (or vice versa upside down). Now most boards are constructed more heavily on the deck. Thus by standing on the board upside down you’re also inverting the intentions of the glassing/construction schedules regarding tension, compression and flex.
I’d have to agree with Onuela that the upside down board flex test is more just a catchy marketing thing, even if it does allude indirectly and inaccurately to a board’s ability to flex
i think its simply an obvious display of durability!
a polly would crease
as would a surftech
compsands are not necessarily constructed heavier on the deck
thats the whole point of a cored skin!
i really want to spill the beans here
im hoping this thread will come up with the goods though
My compsands are constructed symmetrically, top to bottom 
I figure, if the deck is strong enough but still light, why make it heavier; if the bottom is light enough but still strong, why make it weaker? Imbalance = weakness = failure, in my mind.
Craftee could probably put that board deck-up between 2 tables and stand in the middle and it would flex the same amount - this is just an easier way to take a photo
The static flex, after all, is only an illustration of performance & durability…
MC discussions aside…
you gonna show us a pic of that bamboo beauty or was this just a tease?
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performance & durability…
that’s it in a nutshell
no need for parlor tricks…
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Craftee could probably put that board deck-up between 2 tables and stand in the middle and it would flex the same amount - this is just an easier way to take a photo
my point exactly!
so aren’t you creating one giant gully if you add that much flex curve to the natural curve of the rocker?
to make this work correctly you’d pretty much have eliminate most of the rocker so the board would assume a natural rocker from the flex response to the deck load. That means when not under load upside down the board should lie fairly flat with out that much bow or the kind of bow we’re seeing to demonstrate this level of upside down flex.
if these are built using solid perimeters around a soft core and a deck skin overlap with no bottom skin overlap then theres more deformity occuring laterally between the perimeters to support torque along the vertical like a variable twist and snap action in response to the load alignment along the horizointal center line between the perimeters because the bottom is free to release. Straight up and down is the tease but it’s not saying anything cause yes I’ve seen poly’s and surftechs go through the same demo just in response to the challenge.
What you want to see is the nose and tail fastened and load place of the left and right of the non-existant center stringer to see how the board creates twist flex which in turn becomes the propulsion mechanism in and out of turns. This is the test where the other designs would immediately fail where as the jumping test can be easily duplicated by those with the guts to do so. And there’s nothing special in such a demo.
Bufo Boards do much more drastic things to their boards and you never hear anything here about how fantastic their technology is in comparison to Firewire. So who’s spinning a tale here and who’s not?
Bufo Durability Test (Click for videos)
http://217.11.59.28/bufo/index.php?id=73
Classic Photo
Wow just a fun publicity stunt and look at all the cool responses!
I dont know who monkeyshines is but he’s right…my whole trip the last year has been on feel…but you cant convey that message with a pic…the pic was just a fun way of saying - ok I finally got where I want to be, even tho Im less fit and much poorer (thats right, fitness still trumps…Im a lesser surfer now thanks to too much workshop time…work is still work right?) I dont think pics of any kind can convey the right message…We’ve all seen great surf pics using all kinds of diff equipment…no biggie…what important is how it feels under your feet.
Benny, sorry to say but there’s no way I’d do that with the ends supported…it might survive that but Im not gonna risk it…in the pic, the floor is supporting my weight after the board has fully flexed…if you look at the FW Huntington beach pics youll see the same.
The Bufo pics are funny tho…there’s no way in hell a LIGHT board can survive that kind of punishment…I could take the same exact pic…the only thing that matters is what happens AFTER impact. Talk about a mktg ploy…the screaming dude logo says it all to me…aggro punks love that shit.
Bern…sorry right now just a tease…the real test is in the water. Board isnt finshed yet…still gotta fin the thing…been super busy as they say in biz land. But I can assure you that ‘most’ of it is calculated…Ive merged every positive attribute of all my previous attempts into one…even had to add some rail glass after the fact to limit flex…it was a bit too much but now it seems right (measured), like a thin hi-perf pupe. We’ll see…I hope it works cuz I spent enough time/money chasing it. Might be a couple more weeks before I ride it…weve had great surf the last few weeks and now its dead flat with no end in sight 
Paul’s right too…I think it does say something about durability…thats one of the best features. Ive had quite a few failures, which I believe I had to go there to figure out some things, but now I think Im on the right track.
Jury still out…
I’d like to see a test that compares the flex of a Surftech, regular PU/PE, Sunova, Firewire, etc. of a similar shape and dimensions.
Preferred for me would be to see the board supported underneath (maybe some roller support or something) with the rider on top. To see how the rocker changes.
Anyone want to post a picture of their Surftech in a situation like craftee’s?
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Benny, sorry to say but there’s no way I’d do that with the ends supported
But I would I spent the afternoon jumping up and down on 3 of my boards that were made with 3 different styles. I took pictures one the rehabed 9’ stringerless. It is not my most flexy board but … The first two are the classic stand on the bottom shot. I zoomed in so that you could see the ruler.
And here are the stand on the deck shots. I have the board sitting on two 40 lb weights.
Looks like the same 3" to 1" deflection to me …
Hi Dave,
So what have you learned? would you mind sharing with us what you’ve learned? Just a general overview of some pointers/tips/tricks.Thanks.
Cheers,
Rio
PS - in one of those Bufo videos, does the tow-in board weigh 2 pounds?? Crazy.
Hi Craftee -
I haven’t seen a Bufo in person but I think they are fully legit… anything but a BS aggro marketing gimmick. They have received some awards and impressive hook ups with some big (non-surf) players over in Europe. With the backing they have, their R&D resources are practically unlimited.
From what I can see, they are several steps ahead of anything else I’ve seen in regards to light weight durability in surfboard tech.
I’d be very interested in buying one of their boards if the overseas didn’t present such a barrier pricewise.
Yeah John
since we’re spending so much time and effort out here trying to decipher this firewire thing for the crew how about some of the euroguys anteing up to get some info on Bufo…
That fish Bufo had four people standing on looked it it weighed either 2kilos or 2 lbs. the guy was holding it with a couple fingers with an outstretched hand with no visible arm strain…
Their demos are interesting
based on their awards and Firewire’s claims, I was starting to think they were Firewire’s European franchisee or something…
Dave
I think the twist of the unsecured foam core within the perimeter is the big advantage of this compsand construct
which is a little different than most sailboards and way different than a rail wrap surftech, aviso or poly where top and bottom shells are locked into the rail.
No side to side left to right twist but I bet there’s twist along the horizontal within the sold rail. That would smooth it out alot as you engaged and disengaged your weight on the water kind of like how the surflights feel or don’t feel.
Can’t wait to see the board
glass on honeycomb core fins?
But here’s some BertQs (quotes straight from Bert) that’s I’ve burned in my brain…
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im 6’ 4" 220 lb and my current shortboard is 1 7/8 thick , plus the deck is concaved…
what works well in eps epoxy sandwich,seems totally absurd in poly p/u contruction… ive had crew who dont ride my boards bag my shapes for years ,because they dont get the point ,that the contruction materials change the performance characteristics,therefore the shapes need to be altered to better suit the materials…
and to tie in another point ,connecting louis’s comment about stiffness and cheyne’s point about stiffness and roll…
i have a 7’ 8" pintail gun , super stiff ,super light , weighs 2.4 kg or 5.3 lbs …
some of the stuff ive done on that board in 8 ft surf in our northwest and southwest ,is etched on my brain forever… the shape is set up for those condititions. tight pin ,carries the softer rail into the tail so it hugs the face and grabs the face well on free fall drops, has smaller fins set closer to the tail,has thin rails that are buryable at high speeds…
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yea i fully agree that flex is an issue ,so far i havent come close to working flex v strength out in honey comb…
my first 2 were so stiff they were ugly ,with my current eps balsa sandwich boards, you get stiffness but it will bend at high loads ,has a very sensitive feel where you can feel every ripple and know exactly whats happening under your feet ,but also a softness and smootheness , i beleive its a combo of the sandwich for stiffness and the wood for the cushioned ride,…
like i said my first 2 honeycombs were real ugly to ride , felt every bump ,but not in a controlled way ,nothing to dampen the ride , almost like it wanted to buck you off … i didnt get good weights either , i ended up selling one and devoting the other one to science… so i do agree with louis and kenz ,you can have to much stiffness ,
and yes its a balance between strength and performance … and also convenience, my last honeycomb i reckon i nailed the peformance , but it folded on my first surf ,my loadbearing skin was to thin (in an effort for more flex) and once i damaged a few cells it started a chain reaction and it collapsed like a house of cards or dominoes…
you wouldnt beleive the extremes of emotion i went through in 1 hour…
And this little gem straight form the mouth of Greg Loehr in the same discussion:
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As for Louis’ flex question, I personally believe that flex is something you want to minimize.
A perfectly stiff board would, in my mind, feel abrupt in the water.
But I do think that the boards today have too much and could use some stiffening.
Dick Brewer once told me, “the stiffer a board is, the better it rides.” In every other water craft, stiffness is desirable. As you said yourself, it creates speed.
I feel that making the board loose should be in the shape.
If your board is stiffer (faster) it allows you to use a looser shape.
Also, and this is most important, when bottom turning (the basis of performance surfing is the bottom turn) the more speed you have, the more G force your going to be pulling.
More G force equals more flex and more rocker.
Now I don’t know about anyone else but the faster I go the longer the lines I want to draw, not shorter.
More rocker equals shorter turning radius.
In this case, flex is working in opposition to what is desirable.
Pupe is still the benchmark. Those who ignore their positive attributes are bound to yield less than ideal results.
Failures will teach you just as much as successes. Prob is, failures are expensive for the garage dweller.
As far as composite panels, the basics get you farther quicker than more advanced approaches. K.I.S.S.
Hey John, ALL companies engage in marketing tactics…some more legit than others. I understand Bufo has some serious R&D behind it. Thats cool. But Im skeptical by nature and until I see video of the board being weighed, then pounded, during and after, then showing the board up close to see any ill affects, I stand by my earlier comment. Just look at that pic, its just oozing man…a total staging…it speaks for itself. Maybe its just the market they cater too…cant blame them for that.
Onward!