I’ve been looking at the CI Flyer and want to build a duplicate only using EPS/Epoxy. The board will be used for smaller weaker surf chest high and below. The entry rocker will be more relaxed for wave catching ease…just flatter overall.
Upon inspecting a few Flyers, its obvious it has a VERY deep concave peaking between the rider’s feet. I borrowed a friend’s 4 y/o 6’6 and its about 3/16" deep. The newer ones at the shop appear to be even deeper.
Is this kind of concave depth too much of a good thing? Anyone have real riding experience with the Flyer and feedback to share? How does a deep concave compare to a flat in terms of
a. planning and wave catching
b. riding speed
c. ability to rail surf/pump/drive
Please, I’d like to stick with the Concave Depth aspect of the post, thanks in advance.
Generally more concave equals more drive and lift. There must be a point of dimishing return in that though… somewhere. Rider ability, wave shape and fin set up all enter into this but I wouldn’t think 3/16ths would be out of line for a small wave board.
On a recent 9’ longboard I made I put at least a half inch of concave, and it rides killer. Really fast and planes quickly catches waves easier than my 10 foot board. You can put a shitload of concave in a baord and it will work well. If thats what youre into.
I did Dale Dobson a 9’0" EPS with a blended concave, he rode it and liked the way it noserode, but wanted more. He took my teardrop concave template, drew it on the board and cut it out with my dremel with a cut off wheel. I then did the Nu’uhiwa type of concave he wanted inside of the trimmed glass. He reglassed it and then rode it again, “it pushes water”. “If it ain’t broke. don’t fix it”
I’m a kneerider who uses fourteen mill concave from nose to tail in a five ten fish.
Board is superfast and loose in small waves.
Concave in the front flattens the entry rocker. The concave in the tail adds tail lift in the turn but still lets the board run on it’s flats when going straight. Unlike a normal concave, the width of the board (23 and a half) and the deep concave means that the board runs on two hulls some of the time. (ie we’re talking air not water flow betweenh the hulls)
You can feel this hull effect in the turn.
All these factors give you a loose fast board.
Board is just over 2 inches thick (take away the 14 mill concave and you can see we don’t have much residual foam), yet, because of the flat entry rocker, catches waves easily.
Downsides: pay attention to the forward third rails that they are not too down or hard. No real advantages over four foot waves.
Aloha, Reading about all this concave stuff has me thinking about what I’m doing. Making a 6’ 6" Fish with a flat bottom . I thought I was told that a flat bottom would be faster ??? And with a Fish being “Skatey” allready I decided to go with a flat bottom… Any Opinions??? Thanks Don J.
My understanding is that flat is definitely faster when on the plane, but concaves allow you create more drive when doing little turns to generate speed. So if you just want to stand still - flat is fastest but if you if you can create drive then concaves help… could be bollocks tho - everyone seems to disagree on this…
To piggy back a question…butt…not off topic. So 1/16 - 3/16ths is an accepted depth…what about shape??? Do most concaves come out tear drop shape? I had a kechele that had an eliptical,full length concave that went well. So what are the desired or best performing shapes of concaves?? What are the good shapers using Webber…Phillips…Loehr…ect…ect…insert endless list here…Thanks…
No offense chipster…when I posted this thread I was a little furstrated with Swaylocks…it seemed as if everyone had an opinion tangentially outside of the topic…I have since learned…ignorance is bliss…thanks for your comment!
The competition style shortboards seem to favor about 3/16th depth in the single, and an increasingly shallow concave as it turns double and runs out the back.
I know some journeymen pros who make their boards ultra thin, with tons of concave, because with the thin board most of the concave flexes out when you turn. Maybe 3/8" depth in the single.
Flat is definitely a respectable all-purpose bottom…things that get too far away from flat get increasingly risky.
I prefer the Merrick style (or whoever started it, maybe I could be enlightened) - 3/16th inch between the feet, in a single, and blending to a double between the fins, with the concave going to flat before the tail.
Aloha, Just want to say “sorry” … Looks like I did the Hijack thing … I know I shouldn’t have and I will not do it again . I should have started a new thread . Just made me think about the bottom I was doing when I read this one about how good concave is…and wanted to ask how it would work on the board I am making… Sorry Don J.
Yeah the 6’6 Flyer I measured was a 3/16 single to a very subtle sunken double between the fronts to flat at the rear fin…I reworked my 6’4 EPS implementing this…very noticable difference…Im making semicloseout sections more frequently now…works great in all round small to avg surf
I too discovered the beauty of concave through an al merrick:
6’6" x 19" standard squash shortboard-mbb4
the bottom contours cover the entire board -
single starts at 4" behind the nose, goes double in front of the fins and flattens in the last 4" - its 3/16" deep pretty much throughout.
I am a big fella (6’1" 200lbs) and I find this concave board has a lot of ‘lift’ as it planes on the wave - it feels like there is a pocket of air under the board making me feel lighter on my feet - its less ‘draggy’ feeling which = faster response in turns and faster transition from a turning situation into a driving one. since this board I’ve gotten all my customs with a deep concave and I highly recommend it. The only con I’ve noticed is that some fin systems cannot cope with deep concaves and retain the preferred amount of fin cant.
don’t think of each different aspect of surfboard design…you need to consider the total package. some boards have an outrageous amount of vee, and they work fine for THAT board. but that’s not to say that some other board would still ride well with those same features. plan shape, rocker, bottom contour, rail design…it ALL needs to come together to make a great board.
whats up solstice- whadathink of my bing nuuhiwa noserider? we are heading out to the same spot early tommorow , your welcome to take another test ride again, that board has a 3/8 "teardrop concave for mushey waves , matt calvani says that the standard 5/8 " concave is for stronger waves and will cause the board to pop out on weaker waves,shifting your weight forward at the wrong time will stall the board, shifting your weight forward at the right time and you will cause a loooong noseride locked right in the curl-i was thinking we should have a right coast fish fry this summer every one can bring thier boards, i made a 5,5 lis template fish complete with wood keel fins, looks like hell but it can catch some small waves----shannon
"Is this kind of concave depth too much of a good thing? Anyone have real riding experience with the Flyer and feedback to share? How does a deep concave compare to a flat in terms of
a. planning and wave catching" - I’ve been riding some Flyers, and their generous (but not excessive) concave has allowed me (actually forced me) to go lots thinner, which is more responsive. Seems to help with both planing and wave catching, as I can’t imagine as much paddling ease with the boards as thin as I’m riding. But although they catch waves as well, and ride much quicker than a thicker lesser concave or flat bottom, the decrease in paddling ability going out to the surf and back after rides with a thinner concaved board will likely be noticable. I just love riding 'em, but I feel it afterwards. Not cruising machines by any means.
b. riding speed - I think depends on the wave- I think these concave boards work really well in peeling waves, but I suspect a sectiony wave can be made all the way through more often with a flatter bottom.
c. ability to rail surf/pump/drive - I agree with Bert here- faster response but quicker/shorter turns equals not necessarily faster down the line. But it does help keep you closer in the pocket, which is where the energy is, to do all the quick turns, carves and hacks. More fun, more excitement, more spray, more work, more attention needed, smaller margins for error. I actually think Merrick’s MBM is the better rail surf/pump/drive design. My buddy and I exchanged boards one day (identical specs)
surfing a long fast peeling wave, both he and I thought that the MBM out-projected & out-drove the Flyer. But the Flyer is a very decent driver. Very similar concave depth (single to double) & rocker.
