“… I have no problem with people who do it (build surfboards) for a hobby. In fact it may give them insight as to the level of craftsmanship our boards are made to. What bugged me was seeing (on Swaylock’s) the number of guys promoting their products, even with pictures and professional web sites. And this is fine if they are contributing to Swaylock’s. Maybe some are, as someone is keeping that ship afloat. But in the spirit of [that site] should be for hobbyists, to learn and exchange ideas, not promote your surfboard business…” (c/o Rich Harbour, “Harbour Surf Talk”, http://www.harboursurfshop.com/surftalk.html)
What really bugs me is people promoting their fashion accessory businesses on Swaylocks! (see post above)
I have been reading and posting here for about a year and this site is EXACTLY what it says it is: a surfboard design forum. It is a place for amateurs like me, or pros like Jim Phillips or 'tweeners like Paul Jensen. For exotic inventors like Dale Solomonson and Herb Spitzer that think out of the box. Be it the old fashion way with Kokua or on the edge with Greg Loehr, the central theme here is all facets of design; theory, shapes, and materials. If you are hawking something, fine, as long as it relates to design. How in the hell are we supposed to find out Additive 4 (or whatever) unless someone tells you about it. I hope I’m reading it right, but over this past year I think everyone, EVERYONE, has learned something new (even Fred W.)…and that is what is great about this place. A free exchange of ideas, good ones and bad ones, teachers and students. I’m just astonished that it is as civil and unselfish as it is (Maybe Mike just makes us think it is). If someone wants criticise, why don’t they do it here so they can become part of the solution? Join us in a really amazing experience… I urge all to push the button every now and then but Mike’s been clear that $ is not what this place is about. If it feels good, do it. Thanks to everyone for a memorable year… Newbs
Travis, This post may not be exactly what you meant but I’ll vent my spleen anyhow. I am a hobby builder, I have made ten boards, (All of which are still in my garage). I have a day job and I am making boards for the enjoyment not for profit. Hobby guys selling boards is a real problem with me. I think it stuffs up the industry and merely puts more shit boards on the market (probably sold to people who can’t tell the difference.) i am really proud of the boards I have made but lets face it, I am not a pro and the boards are probably crap. There is no way I would presume to act like a pro and sell my stuff. Alex.
“HOBBY – a pursuit outside of one’s regular occupation engaged in for relaxation.” …That definition starts to describe what I do… I’m a one-man show, like a lot of others who belly up to the Swaylocks bar… …So far I haven’t sold a hollow board…I’d be surprised if I ever do…That factor defines me as a hobbyist… …The boards I build are expensive to build and I understand that you can buy several foam boards for what I’ll sell one for…That’s OK…I build ‘em for me to ride…To learn from…and move on… …I sell a few fins…an occasional tool…and all of that adds up to coffee money … …What I build takes time…A lot of time… that same time I could spend doing other things that could make me way more money…or I could spend that time outside in the water…or doing other things that are nearly as satisfying… …So, why do I (WE) do it…???..We LOVE it…It recharges us…We get inspired and move forward with more ideas…An endless fountain of fresh unspoiled ideas… that only WE have inside us… that only WE can make happen… …I do have a web-site…It cost me money to get the web-site name…It costs me money EVERY month to keep the web-site up…I pay that money…Not from money I get by selling surf stuff, that’s for sure…I built the web-site (by myself, again more time) with the hopes of showing others HOW TO build something different…My way of giving back to the greater good that surfing is…If you’ve seen it, you’ll see what I mean… …I stand by what I present there…Most people find the prices I’m willing to sell my boards for as excessive…Maybe they are…???..They’re not for everyone…As far as I know, we still have free will as consumers…99.99% of surfers will look at what I’m doing as artsy, or a novelty…And to some extent, they are right… …Others will look at what I’m doing and see something way beyond what’s currently out there and appreciate that there IS creativity going on in our surf world…Maybe it gives a ray of hope to those who see surf designs as stagnant…???..They too are right… …A lot of the boards and design talk that goes onto Swaylocks, is for the most part, un-impressive…Redundant…Lacking originality…Paint by numbers… Sorry…A lot of you guys can do better…So much talk about the cosmetics…That’s fine, if that’s what you’re interested in, but is that what a DESIGN forum is about…???.. …I know it all takes time, to learn the basics, to become proficient, to go beyond the looks…I was there too…For a long time…But, it seems to me that some of the more experienced guys here, who have the fundamentals honed, are just going through the motions…The techniques are solid, but where is the DESIGN advancements…???..Fractions of inches…Please…Glaciers move faster than surfboard designs… …Push some boundaries…Explore some “outside the industry” materials…Take some chances…Risk a failure, or two…Advance the state of the art…PLEASE… …I don’t know, maybe we’ve reached “as good as it gets”…???.. Paul http://www.hollowsurfboards.com
A person should not run a hobby business building surfboards, even though they are of better quality than most, because they might take business away from shops and builders who are trying to feed their families. Extending this argument, a person should not run a hobby business making bread, even though it tastes better, because they might take business away from grocery stores and bakers who are trying to feed their families. Where does this line stop?Perhaps when the baker makes better bread. Perhaps when the baker convinces everyone to do nothing and let him/her decide what people should eat. It seems to me this lack of competition runs counter to the development of better bread and the expansion of the bread making economy. The development of which might lead to greater baker wealth. Mmmm---- the resin fumes must be getting to me! In any case, thanks Lee and Paul. I think your posts capture the spirit of why we make bread rather than pick it up at 7-11.
By any definition I am a hobbyist. I’ve built surfboards,kneeboards,and sailboards. Most of which are still sitting in my garage. I have sold a few. Didn’t make any money though. I buy the boards I do most of my surfing on (Freeline,Romanosky,Haut,probably one of Dale’s mats) because there’s no way I can shape/build a board that will perform as good as these “pros” build. I occasionally build something caus’ it’s sounds like fun and these guys here at this forum are incredibly helpful in providing info and besides they’re just plain fun to talk to/read about. If they want to promote their stuff more power to them.
Am I a hobby builder? Yes. Do I sell my boards? Yes. Most of them used. If I didn’t sell them my wife would kick me and my 60 or so boards to the curb. Do I make money? Sometimes I do, sometimes I don’t. Last week I sold a board to a kid for $25.00, Its all his single mom could afford. (I tried to give it to her, but she would take it.) Am I going to put Rusty out of business? What do you think? Do I learn something about my hobby on each board I make? Yes. Do I learn anything on Swaylocks? More than I could by making 100 boards. Do people come to me and ask me to make them a board? Yes. Am I going to stop because it may take a sale away from the local surf shop? NO! Do I get a certain satifaction from watching someone enjoy surfing one of my boards? It makes me smile…To me this is not a business…its an addiction.
opinions are like asssholes…everyones stinks!
Sling - you’re a big Harbour fan, where do you stand on this thread that was prompted by Rich Harbour’s unsolicited comments? Guys, I wish a number of you (like Travis, Lee, Paul and Patrick) would post your identical messages from above on Rich’s site under the topic of “Hobby vs. Business”
I think swaylocks is great…you can make boards for a hobby…or you can use it to get your start just like everyone else has to start(somewhere). what better place than here to ask such people with so much knoledge. Swaylocks is truely amazing(thanks Mike) …as far as Rich, I dont know what he was thinking with his tax issue…seems like we pay way to much tax if we can afford to bomb the shit out of the middle east like we did. I paid 17k in taxes and got $500 back. Who gives a shit if you want to sell a few boards out of your garage here and there. I sold some of my used boards and didnt charge tax. I thought it was wrong for herb to attack Mr. Harbour about CNC blanks. Everyone who makes money is doing it. If you ask me, boards that use CNC rough shaped blanks are just as good…maybe even more perfect to the orig shape and design. I think Rich was insulted and also backed into a corner by Herbs comments. I understand where he is comming from. I also think Rich deserves HUGE respect for what he has done in his career and for the surfing industry. As far as I can see, he has earned his place among the greats…i.e. Velzy, Alter, Jacobs…ect. He is a true icon. I am stoked to be able to have my questions answered by such a great man, he is a legend(1959) 25,000+ boards. He is also a real nice guy. I think it is childish to go on his site and disrespect him and advertise a product(steve brom). I think the issue was between Herb and Rich, both great peeps. I think they kissed amd made up…“cant we all just get along?” - R.King
Maybe it’s a good time for Swaylock’s to get “those shirts” silked screened and sell them to help keep Swaylock’s alive. I’m talking about those shirts that we all contributed ideas for a while ago, “Old Shaper’s Never Die, They Just…” He could factor into the cost of the shirt an extra website fundraising portion. Just let the people who visit Swaylock’s know that the promotional shirts will be sold and used for this purpose. There’s nothing wrong with making money in America. I’d buy a shirt for sure!
I don’t see the majors offering the kind of innovative designs that are posted and talked about here at Swaylocks. I was just looking for Rich Harbour’s 7’6 displacement hull model but had trouble finding it – can someone help? Actually, never mind, I can think of four other board makers off the top of my head who I’d rather have make it for me. A couple of them are linked from this site (thankfully). Sorry if that doesn’t pay for your advertising, but that’s not part of my criteria when shopping for a board. Further, having owned and ridden many major label boards, I can honestly report that I’m bored with them. I hear this a lot from other people as well. Perhaps that’s another reason why more and more people turning to the underground shaper – or are buying blanks and mowing their own foam. To elaborate on Patrick Shannon’s post: Yes, you should bake your own bread! Baking your own bread gives you a connection to your food that buying a loaf of Wonder Bread never can. There is no obligation to support the makers of McFood, McHouses or McSurfboards. If you do happen to find something that is made well and deserves your hard earned cash, then support it. If you cannot find products that you want that are of the quality/design/price/etc. that meet your standards then by all means do it yourself.
SlingBlade… I always appreciate reading your commments, but when someones name is mentioned in a forum, theres nothing inappropriate or unprofessional about that person responding… whether it be in Rich Harbours, or anyone elses website. My personal problem with exclusive forums such as “Harbour Surf Talk”, is that any intelligent discussion of surfboard design will naturally carry the truly inquisitive beyond the purview of any single legendary shaper or surf industry persona. Thank God for Michael Paler and Swaylocks… Dale
If you’ve read this far… and you’ve faced your problem… and you’re ready to pry yourself from your computer long enough to seek help, I believe I may have a solution. Who? The usual gang of hopelessly dysfunctional irregulars. What? The First Annual Swayloholics Anonymous Meeting. Where? Plaskett Creek (Big Sur, CA) Group Camp(s) #2 & 3. Why? Why Not? When? September 5th, 6th, 7th. Bring some toys - bikes, kites, kayaks, fishing poles, boards, even inflatable air mats if that’s your thing. It’s a beautiful area that occasionally gets decent surf. My long range forecast is calling for 4-6’ glassy conditions. For those who can’t seem to help themselves, a set of racks, calipers, contour gauges, roll of wrapping paper and pens will be provided for board analysis. I’m hoping some of you will see fit to help get some decent gear together - a few sheets of sandpaper, rolls of masking tape, bars of wax, leashes, fin(s), cans of resin, a few yards of cloth or whatever (I don’t think Skip Frye will donate one of his boards) to have a raffle. Just bring something, we’ll throw it in the pile and draw tickets ($1.00 a pop - that’s right only a dollar!) to see who gets what. I’m in the process of contacting a few local shops and supply houses for donations. All proceeds will go directly to Mike Paler who runs this site. I don’t want to soil the good name of Swaylock’s by implying that this is an officially sanctioned “Swaylock’s” event. It isn’t. Anything goes wrong and it’s egg on my face, not Mike’s. Space is limited… the sites combined supposedly hold up to 80 people but I’ll be calling a limit way before that - we don’t want another Woodstock. A $10.00 deposit will hold a spot. Individual campsites are 18.00 per night but they are strictly first come first served. Click the link below and check “Plaskett Creek” and “Sand Dollar Beach” for an idea of where it is and what it looks like. Contact me at if you are interested. I am open to questions, comments and suggestions. http://www.parksman.com/BSM.html
Thanks Dale…ya know I love ya!
I have seen alot of nose concaves but Harbor boards seem to have somthing different. What does the shape of his nose concaves do?
I think this is a great idea but you should re-post it under its’ own thread so it won’t get lost in the shuffle of t-shirts, Harbour re-hashing, etc etc… Or have Mike make a news bulletin out of it!