Has anyone ever used any core materials, like Divinycell, in surfboard construction? They’ve been using it for years in windsurfing, canoes, and surf skis. Obviously there’s the aesthetic issue to deal with but that’s pretty minor. Curious to see if anyone has ever tried it on a short or long board?
http://compositecorner.wordpress.com
Dcell’s really expensive and soaked up resin unless sealed or a wetout table was used
allot of us switched to corecel which was even more expensive
and then Bert started the whole Balsa trend eventhough Gary Young was doing that as well as hardwood venners almost a decade before at woodwinds
Greg/Bert/Mike Sabs/Silly/and MIke(Holly) began the whole backyard composite epoxy tech conspiracy with Berts post in 2004.
Greg brought it back closer to what Gary Young was doing with his (KIS) timberflex skin demo at cerritos community college.
Gary in the meantime was light years ahead with his epoxy infused bamboo venner skins inplace of fiberglass which was expanded in Australia using Cedar skins over foam.He was using Corecell/Dcell rails and a clear vinyl skin over the top kind of like what Coil and Libtech are looking at now.
Rick Rock was doing high density shells over EPS for along time in Japan
in 2008-2008 Resin8 was hitting it big time in Hawaii using the tech you’re describing but for some reason it just dissappered Tokoro and Sam Egan were part of that roll out of Resin8 here.
John if you watch the video you can see that somehow they premolded the Dcell skin so it fits as a premade shell over the EPS core. Pretty interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaEP_pAUmzI
Before that Arakawa was involved with Solomon and their hollow blue dow core boards which are still around if you hunt around
and before that when Eric was at Blue Hawaii was experimenting with unglassed XPS core boards that he could reshape in the lineup.
So I think there’s been allot of attempts and most of the high density work was done by the sail boarders and kiteboards who need more strength than the surf industry
Seems like Amorin CoreCork is the new Dcell/Corcell and Bamboo is the new carbon fiber alternative choices
But in the end when it comes down to it, I think its the cost and ease of production that drives adoption
wetout tables, rocker tables, vacuum lam and post curing are all the challenges a home builder would have to face to do it right and this doesn’t include prebuilding your wood skins in an autoclave that Bert never really exposed as one of his secrets. Huuie does the same pre-prepping of his wood skins.
I think the more dependant you are on what comes out of the petroleum industries factories the more exposed you are to pricing shifts
people seem to be wanting to play around with weaves and matrixes these days than monocque sealed hulls like the old days
when dcell and ccell went through the roof price wise, the gals at FGH on waikamilo turned me on to last-a-foam which was about half the price and I have been using that instead of Corecel for HD rail and fin box inserts ever since.
There’s no competition between Dcel and Cork prices though
I realize this is a serious question, but c’mon. This is Swaylocks. Not to be an arrogant prick, but what do you think the answer is to that question?
10 years ago Bert Berger posted an in-depth tutorial - with pics - on how to bag a 1/8th" D-cell deck, bottom and rails onto light density EPS. In the "what are you working on right now there must be 100 boards - including 2 posted just this week - that use D-cell over lighter cores.
My bad, the two most recent examples weren’t in that thread. They were in other threads:
http://www2.swaylocks.com/comment/1490135/Re-duuuude-Show-your-wood
http://www2.swaylocks.com/forums/modern-fibers-surfboard-laminates-cerex-and-others?page=12
Seriously, I'm not trying to be a wise-ass - hasn't Surftech been doing TufLite construction for about 20 years?
More recently Josh Dowling in Australia uses the stuff as well.
I think the relief cuts on that surf-ski demonstrate what many of us are up against when it comes to wrapping rails and molding comp skins to compound curves. That is the main reason why most guys are doing the built-up rails and sticking with primarily flat comp skin panels.
EDIT - Sorry gdaddy - didn't see your posts.
We are aware of who uses what and how they use it. Maybe the question wasn’t asked correctly. Maybe it should have been “Why don’t more people use Divinycell?” There are a lot of newbies on this site too so don’t write them off. Those boards do look super good so we still ask, “why not use it more?” Thanks johnmellor for the thoughtful response.
Apologies. I answered the question you actually asked instead of the one you apparently meant. My wife told me a couple weeks back that if I really loved her I would know what she wants without her having to actually ask me for it. I guess that means I need to work on my intuition a bit.
Sorry. Won’t happen again.
Anyways, as I recall the progression here went from D-cell to wood planked decks then veneers then back to high-quality PU cores with epoxy glass jobs and tech layups. Something for everyone. I’d consider D-cell if it wasn’t for the fact that I don’t want to paint blanks to cover the color.
Since you are asking…
Why did you guys stop selling corecell? It cost more than d-cell, but it was worth it! On the black and red board above, I used Divinycell, and found it tore when trying to fade sand/ blend into the PU foam. Corecell blended better, without tearing.
Either skin foam is sooooo… much better than just foam. No footwells after a year of hard use. Takes a bit of learning to use it without it drinking epoxy, and adding weight. Once you get the steps down it is great.
How to use it could be a good thread.
Hey Gdaddy,
No need to paint if you switch to cordura, rather than fiberglass. I’ve got a little 1 oz 110 denier parachute ripstop coming. Can hardly wait.
Coring the skin with D-cell is '80s sailboard tech, zillions of glorious SUP are now done this way. Lends itself to overseas production because it’s labor-intensive. Kinda stiff for most peoples tastes in shortboards.
Good point on the Cordura - I had actually thought of that but I wasn’t sure about the coverage-when-wet. I was also considering the lighter rip-stop.
At $10 or $11/yd the cordura seems a little spendy, though. I can get the 2oz innegra at that price, so at the moment I’m weighing the pros/cons of both.
[img_assist|nid=1075164|title=exposed cork|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=640|height=428]
[img_assist|nid=1075163|title=cork|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=404|height=640]You can get a 7’ x 4’ sheet of cork for 19$ and it does not lock up the flex. I like the exposed cork decks so much wax just seems gross and messy now and cork insulates from the sun- heat. Plus it is so easy to bag on ---- flexible and a natural bleeder for the resin. A no brainer for me now. Top board has exposed cork with innegra& glass under-- one shot in the bag easy peasy. The bottom board was my first test of cork and I glassed over it-- bomb proof.
Here’s your answer; Not mainstream enough and NOBODY wants to pay the extra for some “super-core Vacum bagged $#!t”. All of the above who have chimed in don’t sell enough “core” surfboards to even mater. Total Sways Hype and NOBODY knows who they are or what they are doing outside of Sways.
After using all of the above I settled on veneers for surfboards. Easiest of the “sandwich” constructions and best riding for surfboards. We ended up really going light on those, built them too heavy at the beginning. Depends on what your doing though. Sailboards take the greatest beating and have to be sandwiched. 1# foam for race boards and 1.25# for waves with D-cell or corecell. SUP have deck pads and IMHO D-cell or Corecell are overkill. Veneer or straight layup on lightweight foam 1# to 1.5# EPS is usually fine. I like 1.25# myself. Boxes hold up in the stuff without tricks and the boards (12’6" Race or touring) come in at 27 or so. Not bad. Surfboards go with a higher density EPS (2#) with straight layup or a lighter core (1.5#) with veneers. Urethane for larger waves, many times epoxy (pro guys) but lots of poly out there too. Kiteboards are pretty much all veneers on 2# EPS from what I’ve seen last couple years. I’ve seen D-cell used in skim boards too.
Hi Greg,
How much are you paying for your vineers? One side of D cell costs about $25 a board. It might be overkill on strength, but I don’t think cost.
Hi Bernie -
I see what you mean by the 'shell' at 1:30 in the video. That would definitely make the rail wrap easier!
I'd be curious to see how that pre-molded shell is accomplished. I know D-Cell is somewhat heat formable but I haven't seen it used like that before.
Veneers are usually cheaper than foam. You can get really expensive, awesome looking, wood varietys which are expensive but I like the look of bamboo, poplar and some of the mahoganys about as much as any of them. Did a Koa longboard that was awesome looking. That was expensive. Another thing I’ve done is spraying the wood (usually bamboo) white and then doing an airbrush over that. Makes it look like a straight clear board. Veneers are just so much easier than the others once you get them dialed. Simple one shot bagging to do both sides and no post shaping.
I do agree with McDing to an extent but there are A LOT of sandwich boards on the market. Nearly all are imports because of the amount of labor. This has always been my thought on veneers, least labor intensive of any sandwich construction, best strength to weight and they have a marketable cosmetic appeal. Just best in class for surfboard construction if your looking at selling a superior product.
Here’s a link for certainlywood.com. Generally where I get my stuff. They roll it up and put it in a box so it’s UPS and shipping is very reasonable. This link is for poplar which is nice looking, strong and inexpensive. At $.45 a sq. ft. it beats the hell out of foam. Also comes in longboard lengths. http://www.certainlywood.com/woodmenulist.cfm?c=113
Thanks for the link.
Poplar is really unstable when wet. It really swells and twists. A ding could turn into a delam. A while back Huie posted that hickory was the best wood for skins that we can get in the States. Hickory and most of the other woods were in the $1.95 a sq ft. So good wood costs a bit more than foam.
Which is stronger against impact, wood or foam? Which is stiffer/ springier after lamination, wood or foam?
Wood, since it is thinner would be much less labor. Fairing in the foam adds about a half hour to the project, over thinner wood. But what is time to us Garage hacks? If I cared about time, I would pay someone else to do it ; )