corporatiztion of surfboards

Industry Talk
1

i have to vent and see where i fit on the swaylocks spectrum. i thought this site was invented for craftsmen and their esoteric ideas and tendencies towards artistic endeavor. the photos show that this is still the case but the industry forum is getting filled with suits. so where’s the verbal and active revolution to the wall-streeting of our craft? are there others out there like me…concerned about the state of affairs in the industry… it seems we are being taken over by middlemen. when all the major surfboard players are selling to bigger corporations and new giants are being invented by marketing men and their team of sales reps, i know surfing is in a philosophical dark spot. and even more dis-heartening are the retailers that buy into these corporate models like crazy-- saying “they are safe, reliable, and sales of their [plasticized] models are supported by ad dollars.” and who cares where they come from, if the mark-up is right they’ll support the chinese surfboardmaufacturing sector, no worries! local surf labor be damned.

i have a mortgage and kids and need money just like corporate suit guy but i started shaping for love and practicality and art. the lifestyle has been great and my customers seem satisfied and loyal. i know this because we still surf together when the surf is on. i meet new customers at the coffee shop, we look at what they ride and where they want to go on the wave that they’re not going now. there is communication and humanity and stoke! so i am asking who else is out there that is still supportive of these cottage industry values. where is all the pro-custom shaper rhetoric on this site? why are so many post related to the extremes of the industry, either arguing about which cnc machine is better or how to handshape a balsa gun with nail clippers?

obviously, the face of surfing is changing and it is not ever going to look as peaceful and soulful as duke kohanamoku’s or tom blake’s…the pride of the self sufficient craftsman. do we want surfboard companies that have the shared features of the businessmen’s furrowed brows, of men in offices who command units of boards to be shipped here and there, who take their ulcers to tavarua once a year at the expense of exploited third world labor? someone has to turn this tide.

maybe the small town shapers, trying to compete against these giants need a union where we could pool money and run ads that help the consumer understand the benefits of working one on one with human craftsman. show the consumer that the brand of logo has nothing to do with how much fun they can have in the ocean, it is only a piece of rice paper with air dry ink printed on it. there are lots of hard-working ethical shapers out there trying to find them and make them a better board… epoxy or pu.

2

If you make a good product you will always have a place in the market. Cottage industries will always have their place, particularly if you produce quality.

If you have objections to big business trying to make money, then perhaps you need to write a letter to Forbes.

This is a surfboard design forum, corporate, cottage, backyard, everyone.

3

scribbles,

I don’t get to see alot of surf shops any more…there isn’t many where currently I live. Recently took a trip to Florida and had the chance to cruise through some wonderful shops there. Staff at all of the shops were very helpful. It was interesting to see what the shops were stocking and enlightening to check out the product.

What I can say conclusively is the following; the brands (that will remain nameless) that were represented “in force” at these shops; the commercialized ones; the ones running the big glossies in the mags…I looked at their boards. Closely. I approach things with a different eye now that I make my own. I also looked at the “house” brands that most of the shops stocked and boards from local shapers as well (way to go Drewtang on Surf-Station…nice lookin sticks).

The “big label” boards had, on the whole, more flaws than the house brand boards (which surprised me). Some of the local shapers, or smaller labels that were in the shops maybe had a pinline off here, or there; maybe the nose wasn’t completely square over the 1/2" or something. BUT…the smaller labels had better glassing, fewer sandthroughs, the shapes were more well adjusted to real surfing conditions according to the area, there was better installs at the finboxes and leash plugs. If you wanted glass on fins, local or small or custom from a big name is your only option.

I had a hard time believing the 500$ price tag for a board with assymetrical concaves, ripped foam near the stringers, or sand throughs. Sure; the foils and rockers and outlines were nice and smooth, but I’m not going to pay that kind of money for a board that will self destruct; I’ll give it to a local guy that will make me a durable board that will ride well in the conditions I experience. The cottage industry ain’t goin’ anywhere as long as there as discerning surfers who pay attention to their equipment. Sadly, the big growth in the surf industry isn’t breeding these people; potentially not even long term customers. The real question you have to ask yourself is whether you want some of that big growth, right now; whether some kid in Iowa really needs your surfboard and whether you’ll be able to handle the crash when the market slumps again, or whether you want to keep serving your intimate clientele, making customers at the coffee shop and testing your gear side by side with someone who respects, admires and values your contribution to the community as he contemplates the last tube he just pulled out of on a board you custom made for him.

cheers,

g

4

It’s not the industry forum thats getting filled with suits, it’s the INDUSTRY! Too many companies are being started or bought out by big execs. to try and make a buck on a growing industry. You are absolutely right. The surfing industry needs to find it’s roots again. Our company, Domyan Foam, is a prime example. We aren’t suits by any means. I shaped surfboards for 9 years before moving on to this. My family survives on a backyard-shapers salary. After the closing of Clark we figured what a perfect oppurtunity to return the industry to it’s roots by starting a company with next to nothing, running it with close family and friends-all surfers/shapers, and provide a quality product with good people backing it. But we are fighting. Since we started this venture in January many others have also stepped up… big names. These big guys kill us. They are concerned with quantity while we are concerned with quality and a good environment. We want to build lasting friendships with all our customers while the other guys want to strong arm thier customer so they won’t go elsewhere to buy thier blanks (you know who you are). When did the industry become so cut-throat? We refuse to stoop to those levels and we will keep pushing along with optimism. We would rather go down in flames with a little dignity than treat our customers like cattle. Let me get off my soapbox. Sorry… just a little burned by the suits and past experiences in the industry!

5

yes, you are right, wildy. the little guy has to be GREAT!.. also, tomorrow after my daily foam mow, i’ll start my letter to forbes. no, i am not a communist here but i think greedy big profitism and market share godzilla’s just seem out of place in an industry that deals in tuberides and pure joy moments. so if you’re in it for the money, well…

6

I guess we should all be riding redwood planks then… Making surfboards is a business. The market has changed drastically. The custom carbuilder got hosed when Henry Ford invented the assembly line. The existing businesses had to reinvent themselves. They had to find out where they added value. To survive, the local shaper needs to add value. What you have described as your business model is something that no Thai or Chinese popout maker can do, help surfers surf better through your products. Now get out and sell it! :slight_smile:

7

…70 % surfer /real shaper loyalty problems

…30 % shapers without a clue

8

I’m not a shaper but my cousin is and I’ve watched him go through his ups and downs. I try to give him encouragement and advice about continuing to cultivate his business. I am a 27 year consumer so I think I have some idea what a somewhat discerning surfer is looking for. I bought one of the surftechs, I didn’t like it at all, lots of the small subtleties that got me, the rails were too soft and unresponsive among other things. I gave it a few more months then to craigslist it went. I will not do the popout deal again.

I love the shaper who knows me, knows the way I surf, the places I surf and what direction I’m heading with my surfing putting his hands on the foam on my behalf. I have no problem with big business I can see buying a 50 gallon drum of dish washing detergent from Costco because it is really not all that personal of an item for me and it’s an area where I will save a couple of bucks that will promptly be put in the piggy bank towards the next board. But when it comes to my surfboard, I’m looking for the art to be mixed with the science and technology rather than the other way. I have no interest in the all machine ordeal ever again. I know I’m not alone I think the shapers that find and work hard to keep their niche will always have a place in purchasing habits of 85+ percent of the surfers who go beyond their first board purchase and make surfing a lifelong pursuit.

That stuff being said there are more people surfing now then ever, there appears to be a growing reentry market and people are able to surf longer than ever before. I’m not a real fan of crowds but we all see it. That has to equate to more people who will if not for the first buy who will eventually go to a local shaper for a board and I think once you guys get them there and put a magic board under their feet you will have hooked them for life. If they move they will probably become a customer to another local shaper.

I think it stays a grass roots dialogue from surfer to surfer too. I see guys I work with who are starting out and insist on buying a popout due to price for their first board. I tell them about what’s what and show them who the local shapers are and send them their way. I don’t know any of them who’ve gone back from there.

I also say the “suits” for the most part are a bunch of clothes retailers. I wonder what percentage of the overall “surf industry” profits are clothes?

I will never cease to be amazed at how inexpensive buying a surfboard really is, compared to how much effort is devoted to building it. I’m not saying I want to pay a thousand bucks for a board but damn I do love you guys for making having a quiver financially possible. Keep up the good work!

9

At this time most guitars sold in this country are mass produced in Korea- typically the quality ranges from not bad to pretty decent. There are some mass produced guitars still being produced in the U.S. - their quality is generally better than the Korean guitars. And then there are a few truly great guitar crafters here (and abroad) who make a topshelf product. I see the surfboard business moving in the same direction. I believe the knowlegible will always want a custom board tuned to their specific needs. I see the “latest model” surfboards being a thorn in the side of true custom manufacturers as the big name makers of the "pro models’ are misleading the public offering something that looks like what the pros are riding but in fact, more often than not, are nowhere near what is currently being ridden by the best. At times the big names are actually engaging in outright deceit. I know you know what I’m talking about. How often do you see some intermediate surfer walking up the beach with a $600 big name pro model that is totally unsuited to their needs and abilities. As long as the public is misled by misrepresentation by the big names, it will hurt the small guys trying to make a decent board, tuned in to the surfer and the waves of his locale. None of this "one size fits all’ bullshit board “made for all conditions” Am I the only one who finds it really annoying that a pro surfer wins a title riding a board made on the other side of the world, and yet the board has stickers on it that imply it is a big name U.S. made board ? Where I come from that’s called fraud. I’ve had the opportunity to compare , first hand, the store bought mass produced or computer shaped pro model finished by a ghost shaper to boards actually ridden by some of the pros - they are NOT the same quality. The average Joe, in my opinion would be better served, if they knew this and dealt with a skilled local shaper who could build them something much closer to what they need and probably for less. Just my penny’s worth.

10

The best product will rise to the top. Sometimes a business person sees a deficiency in a market and finds someone with a solution or solves it themselves. Put the two together and the $ will flow in. People could not care less where their $ goes. This is a fact of life that will never change, humans are not that altruistic when it comes to consumer products. The fact is that big business often provides better stuff for cheaper. Our society works that way. Sometimes it is ugly and corporations need to be reigned in by government. Little players are getting squeezed out in every industry. I don’t necessarily like it, but I am a realist. Unless major law changes controlling corporations come into effect we will keep going down this road.

If a new product has distinct advantages over the existing version and it is affordable, people will buy it. The durability of surfboards has been a bad joke for too long and people are crying out for alternatives. This is the glaring deficiency. Shapers and their esoteric thoughts will always rule surfboard making, it is the construction that is a joke. As an industry surfboard makers have rested on their laurels for too long on the durability question and big business has seen the opening. New technology has provided the crow bar. Maybe the technology was never there before, or maybe desire was lacking. Why change if you are selling heaps of boards (even if they have no durability)? As soon as someone builds a board that performs as good as or better than a traditionally made pu board that won’t snap as easy as a bread stick, they will make big $.

I can’t tell you how many times big time board makers have shrugged their shoulders and said to me “Surfboards will always snap, that’s how the world works”. Thus Firewires are going apeshit on the promises alone. Surftechs sell heaps even though many say they can’t match pu boards on performance. That is how desperate surfers are for new construction. Unless a new Clark comes along and invents something in his garage, the source of the technology will probably be big business. The chemistry and engineering is just too complex for most garage hackers. Ideally I would love to see some backyarder hit it big. I’d love a 6’4" x 18.75" x 2.5" that had nice flex and low weight that I could air drop on all day and not snap even more. Please don’t come at me with cries of “just get a 6 ounce glass job”. The technology has inherit flaws.

Get a better standardized construction system out to the little shapers and they will be OK. At the moment no shapers that I have been in contact with have any interest whatsoever in making me a board from newer technologies, let alone actively developing better construction systems. That is how it is in Oz anyway. Yes I know Bert exists.

11

thank you all for your well thought responses. lots of good points to consider as we try to revaluate our philosophical reasoning for being in this industry.

the new technology issue is funny to me. so far it has been a step backwards with the exception of the ressurgence of epoxy shortboards which i always liked to ride (but still hate to shape). the firewire hype is a good example of great marketing and nothing more. first they start the hype (i am amazed how this even worked), then buy off a top wct star, and then they try and produce the boards by running ads for production crews on swaylocks. doesn’t that appear backwards? wow…and chances are their new technology will be filling up the ding repair room at the glass factory as much as the nerftech’s. so until these new product middlemen have a history in the business that proves they are more than a bunch of well funded spin doctors, all the public cries for longer lasting products will still not be satisfied no matter how often their advertisers tell consumers they are “tough”. the last few years have shown that some consumers in the surf world like these ads and rather than deal with local craftsmen, they want to pay more money for a mass produced product that performs worse and still breaks.

so until there is a breakthru in technologies, i agree with you all that the remaining small guys have to continue to make boards that perform well for the discerning surfer, that are priced fairly, and can move thru the aisles of local retailers despite their lack of ad dollars… oh yeah, and most importantly, keep their sense of humor. i am trying.

12

the thing is specialization, not customization. that’s where bigger corporations with more money can leverage and leave behind smaller guys in the dust.

textiles / clothes used to be made by hand. And if the price was right, it could be made really well and customized for the task. Since things were industrialized machines made clothes easier. Now if you want custom clothing, you have to pay for it. But you have specialization. You have a team that R&D’s new materials, another team than refines them, another team that tests it, yet another team that puts the theory into application based off the R&D, refine, and test. Then you have another team that figures out how to inform / get people interested. Then there’s yet another team that finds other applications for the material / fiber . . .

Same with snowboarding industry . . . it was customized for average people. When it commercialized (following the ski industry) average people get Options not customization, and they must choose the options that fit them. Possibly the price is better, maybe not . . .

But the options is not as good as custom. The only people that get custom are the ones that can afford it or who are professionals at using it.

But surfing is different as much performance as reputation / popularity. So therefore it is considered cool to get a custom board from your shaper . . .

And the top-tech materials / methods all can be “home built” or are readily avaible to the public. For ski / snowboarding, top tech requires : computer aided design / testing / material R&D, and engineered methods relying on the strength of industrialization (and hundreds of thousands of dollars in research / application) and the materials are only available to select companies, not for the general public.

Even more so, is that a backyarder was the one that set the standard of all technical prowess of surfing, the compsand of Firewire, and we know whose influence that is.

While the top surfing materials / methods can all be made in the back yard or using equipment costing only hundreds or thousands (as opposed to hundreds of thousands or millions), with all materials are available to the public.

Look at all the compsand posts . . . producing firewire quality boards . … Well saloman said they put millions but there’s a post here that showed a) they either blew their money or b) they “said” they used millions (maybe fudging details like millions for entire R&D for all their products not just s-core).

Like you said, so until there are ‘breakthrus’ where backyarders or teams of backyarders that build surfboards cannot do within their reasonable means or continue to lead by innovation . . . then industrialization of surfboards will not reap the full advantages of industrialization / specialization.

Yet a glaring issue of commercializing / corporate / industrialization is you lose the quality only craftsman can deliver. Case in point: balsa boards: you look at someone like Jim Phillips, he makes boards that industrialized surf manufacturers cannot touch. You could use machines to speed up the process but in the end for the balsa board to work right and look right, you need an experience hand to finish it.

13

The main reason for running ads here looking for production crews is because swaylocks is full of lurkers who would love an opportunity to get into the industry, just like I did years ago. And there are many lurkers who have good hands and a good attitude and are interested in current and future technology and want to be part of it. And there are a lot of old hacks who don’t want to embrace and learn about the new technology.

I should try and add up the amount of years surfing and boardmaking experience associated with Firewire, more than you think. The ‘new product middle men’ have way more experience than you give them credit for.

The fact they have way more money than you or me is out of our control. The way they want to spend it is their own concern.

I’m glad you’re laughing, I am too.

14

hahahahahahahahaha. must’ve touched a nerve. lurkers with planers rule!

wildy, i don’t doubt there is some good brains in youR corporate building but still don’t know why you think the new corporATE surfboard world deserves so much credit. you haven’t done anything yet and in my opinion you’re trying to turn the industry into a soul-less sham… a justin timberlake world of bland surfboard consumer music-- one monophonic plastic korean guitar for all.

i am laughing harder now because i really have found my sense of humor again. but hey, i am sure you guys will find your little niche and make your investors proud…good for you, whoever you guys are. hopefully , you guys have a picture of a planer up on the wall somewhere to remind you of where you came from. all i know about you guys is that you are ex-sunglass guys and ex-rag tycoons…and i have to assume that there must be someone that used to shape there too, some wizzard of oz figure- the guy behind the curtain with the big voice. is that you wildy?

15

Nah, it’s not me.

I never said the corporate stuff needs credit, they can stand up for themselves if they want. The only nerve you twinged was making accusations about things you may not know enough about. But it’s your opinion and I respect that.

I’m just the guy in the background, different ego, not cool enough, not famous, don’t want to be.

But I’m still having fun, making the best boards I’ve ever made in my life. And I mean my boards for me, no disrespect to all the other people I’ve made boards for. They are all good practice though, and I still do it by hand.

Even if what we do here is mostly done by hand, there’s more real soul here than several of the other places I’ve worked.

I’m having fun, for me that’s what it’s all about.

16

fair enough. good luck