Crazy hollow carbon balsa kevlar composite fish!!

Im new to Swaylocks, This is my second post and my first topic. I am currently building a hollow wood fish. I have some experience shaping foam boards, I have made 5 clark foam surfboards and about 30 foam-core skimboards (I live in Tampa FL so I’m lucky if I can catch some good swell on the gulf, but there’s a lot of good skim waves to be had)

my main hobby is radio controlled airplanes, I design and build my own airplanes. This has given me lots of experience working with balsa, plywood, carbon, kevlar, fiberglass and foam. And most of all I concider myself an expert on building light hollow structures that are capable of withstanding rediculous loads!!!

Check out my avitar I designed that airplane. It weighs 4.5 lb, The eingine gets over 1 hp at 15,500 rpm. It is capable of 120 mph and can pull over 15 G’s. That equals 67.5 lbs on a wing that weighs less than 1 lb.

I was about to shape a new fish but Clark foam went out of buisness so I can no longer get a good blank. I then decided to combine my skills and make a hollow wood board. I plan on making my board like I would make a wing on an aircraft. I am Inspired by Paul Jenson’s boards, however, No offense to you Paul, but Ive checked the specs on your boards and they seem very heavy. 13 lbs for a fish wich is under 6’0" seems excessive to me!!

After carefully examining the construction of other’s hollow wood boards, I have come across one MAJOR flaw. The loads from the deck are NOT distributed through-out the board properly. The gaps between ribs and stringers are way too large. In order to keep the board from crushing, Thick wood skins are used to bridge the large gaps between the stringer , rails and ribs. I don’t care how many lightening holes you cut in that plywood frame, it just looks SOOOO heavy!!!

I plan on making a much denser framework (tighter rib spacing and a second stringer between the center stringer and rails) A tighter framework will distribute the load across the board more efficiently, thereby allowing me to use a much thinner skin (veneer laminated at 45 degree angles) The thinner skin will be major source of weight loss. The frame’s structure will be made entirely out of plied balsa, carbon tubes and carbon and kevlar laminates. I will also use generously sized lightening holes to further reduce every last ounce. In addition, The rib spacing and strength of the materials within the board will change through out the board to eliminate as much unnecessary material as possible. for example the ribs will be packed tight and highly re-enforced where my feet are, but the spacing will double and ribs will be less re-enforced tward the front of the board

The board is designed to transfer all loads directly to the carbon and kevlar parts. The wood is mearly used to keep all carbon and kevlar parts in allignment, and to give shape to the board. This will allow me to use the least amount of wood possible.

The deck’s cross section will be able to support weight by working like an arch crossed with a bow and arrow (sounds confusing I will explain) Pressure on the deck will be absorbed by spruce strips running rail to rail under compression like an arch. When a load is applied to the top of the board, the arch will push the rails away from the center of the board. Directly under the arch, imbedded in a 3 ply balsa rib is a 1/8" carbon tow under tension (imagine the arch and tow forming the bow from a bow and arrow) The spruce translates the load to the carbon and keeps the board from collapsing without heavy ribs, thick sheeting and the excessive weight plywood ribs and rails!!

So far I have made the subframe for the stringer and I have finished the rear 2 ribs. I am being delayed because all my carbon parts are running late in the mail. Pics coming soon. I plan on fully documenting the construction of this board on this thread so stay tuned. It may take a while because there are a RIDICULOUS number of tiny intricite parts that go into the construction of just one rib. (Thats on thing that plywood’s got on me!! - low parts count)

I was wondering about the same thing. As a kid I used to into air planes. I have this book that had a cross section of an F4U Corsair and F6F Hellcat (US Navy World War 2 fighters), and cleaning out my room last weekend for unusables to give away and ran into the book. I paged through it . . . I was wondering (hmm aluminum frame hollow with . . .)

Fast forward to now, and there’s a post by you about it . . . Well since you kinda put yourself on the pedestal, now people will want to see those pics.

cool that your taking on such a project… i’ll be looking forward to the photos and such…

my question would be if you want it light,

why not just use a super light eps foam instead of ribbing to support your skins? look for the post from Danny Hess a few weeks ago… best of luck on the project.

Ipcdefg,

Welcome aboard. You are a breath of freash air. The sharing of your knowledge will be a benefit to a great many constructors. I’m looking forward to your progress posts, and photos.

me too ,

but because I’m a photo addict .

nah , really , I want to see kevlar and carbon fibre combined in a board . Something I’ve asked about before , and now will get a chance to see …thanks very much !

ben

yes , welcome to sways …enjoy it mate !

Interesting lpcdefg! Will be following your thread for sure.

Jimmy yoshio shibata.

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cool that your taking on such a project… i’ll be looking forward to the photos and such…

my question would be if you want it light,

why not just use a super light eps foam instead of ribbing to support your skins? look for the post from Danny Hess a few weeks ago… best of luck on the project.

I am not using foam because I want the feel of a hollow wood board. Paul Jenson describes the feel as totaly different from a foam board. A solid block of foam dampens the feel of the water under your feet, however a hollow wood board acts like a drum. The slightest pressure from the water reflects through the board and into your feet. In addition the board will be much stiffer. I never said that I wanted to make a lighter surfboard compared to a foam board, I want a lighter hollow wood surfboard compared to existing hollow wood boards.

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'… I want a lighter hollow wood surfboard compared to existing hollow wood boards…"

a noble pursuit …

the first thought that came into my head as I paddled out on hicksy’s ‘hollow wooden surfboard" [‘H.W.S.’] 8’er was …"MAN , this thing is HEAVY !! " [And, I felt the same on Gray Murdoch’s 6’ something H.W.S. fish, too !]…and this coming from me , who rides heavy old single fins and twinnies and thrusters !]

What sort of weight would you be estimating yours may weigh when finished , lp ?

cheers !

ben

I plan on making a much denser framework (tighter rib spacing and a second stringer between the center stringer and rails) A tighter framework will distribute the load across the board more efficiently, thereby allowing me to use a much thinner skin (veneer laminated at 45 degree angles) The thinner skin will be major source of weight loss. The frame’s structure will be made entirely out of plied balsa, carbon tubes and carbon and kevlar laminates. I will also use generously sized lightening holes to further reduce every last ounce. In addition, The rib spacing and strength of the materials within the board will change through out the board to eliminate as much unnecessary material as possible. for example the ribs will be packed tight and highly re-enforced where my feet are, but the spacing will double and ribs will be less re-enforced tward the front of the board

The board is designed to transfer all loads directly to the carbon and kevlar parts. The wood is mearly used to keep all carbon and kevlar parts in allignment, and to give shape to the board. This will allow me to use the least amount of wood possible.

The deck’s cross section will be able to support weight by working like an arch crossed with a bow and arrow (sounds confusing I will explain) Pressure on the deck will be absorbed by spruce strips running rail to rail under compression like an arch. When a load is applied to the top of the board, the arch will push the rails away from the center of the board. Directly under the arch, imbedded in a 3 ply balsa rib is a 1/8" carbon tow under tension (imagine the arch and tow forming the bow from a bow and arrow) The spruce translates the load to the carbon and keeps the board from collapsing without heavy ribs, thick sheeting and the excessive weight plywood ribs and rails!!

So far I have made the subframe for the stringer and I have finished the rear 2 ribs. I am being delayed because all my carbon parts are running late in the mail. Pics coming soon. I plan on fully documenting the construction of this board on this thread so stay tuned.

man, that sounds space age , it wil be good to see it being built.

cecil

Hello Ipcdefg and group…:slight_smile:

I’m also new to swaylocks and I’m really enjoying this site!

Ipcdefg, we seem to have much in commom. I used to build R/C planes with my dad, my first plane was a Piper J3 cub powered by an Enya .19 and a 10ch. “reed” radio… We’re talking '60’s gear here!!

I’m a kitesurfer, who’s been building kiteboards since 1999. I’ve also been building winsurfers since 1984 mostly using PVC hard-skins over a 1# EPS core…

Like you I’m also just starting work on a hollow 5’-8" kite-surfboard . Instead of wood I’ll be using all the leftover pieces of A550 Corecell reinforced with carbon for my stringers and ribs. The skins will be 1/4" Core-cell sandwitched between an inner and outer carbon skins c/w 4oz. S-glass topcoats… The 1/4" thick foam will let me fool with shaped concaves,Vee, and smooth deck to rail transitions…

This board will have optional footstrap inserts to allow for jumping, so I was also considering extra skeletal ribs in this area… I like your ideas in this regard…

My stringer and ribs will be constructed out of 5/8" core-cell that has the middle routered down to 1/4" to form an “I” beam , only leaving the full 5/8" foam thickness as a wider flanged gluing surface at the skin attachment surfaces. These structures will also have drilled holes for weight savings, and will be sandwiched with vac. bagged carbon cloth…

The skins will be vac. bagged to the sub frame as well…

As you mentioned, this type of construction will have lots of individual parts an thus will be a much slower build, but I’m really looking forward to the challenge!!

Can’t wait to see your build photos, I have a standard twin-tip kiteboard to finish before I can get started on this hollow project…

P.S. I’ve attached a few pics. of some of my carbon -kevlar “wave-twin” kiteboards…:slight_smile:



My Original weight goal was under 10 lbs, But Under 8 lbs is my new goal. (My old water-soaked clark foam fish weighs 8 lbs)

Sounds like a good project. I’m also looking forward to seeing pictures (it will be much easier for me to visualize whats going on).

Looking forward to reading about your work.

However, I have a serious disagreement with you.

You are a model airplane wing afficionado…

You’re about to embark on a cool crazy (nutty) construction concept…

Your user name is lame :wink:

Why not WINGNUT?

So perfect for you…change now b4 its too late…

eh, hey admins?!

Cheers

I agree, WingNut is “Mo Bettah”.

Re: Weight…

These are my observations as I’ve evolved the process of how I build my boards…

I haven’t build a board that’s even come close to breaking, so it’s obvious they’re overbuilt…

Therefore weight can be reduced…

The frame can be very light and strong if you just use 1/8" plywood and drill it out…I’m not sure that adding carbon fiber to the internal frame adds to the strength in a significant manner…At least enough to justify the weight increase, even as minimal as it is…

I find the cross ribs don’t do much structurally except hold the rails apart until the deck and bottom skins are attached…They’re necessay, but can be kept very light…

The deflection of the deck by body and foot pressure isn’t much of an issue…Once the board is glassed, the composite sandwich construction is pretty firm…Particularly if the deck is domed…Think of the strength of a domed cathedral…No cross bracing under the dome…

The skin weight can be reduced by by using 2oz. carbon fiber on the inside…keeping the wood thickness to about 1/8"…and using the lightest wood possible…Once the skins are on the frame, the board at this point will feel pretty light…

The place where the weight begins to add up is the building out of the rails…Use balsa if you have it… Springback is an issue with any curve, the greater the curve the more the springback…Maybe vac bagging solves that…I don’t know…Also, if you can stairstep the layers onto the rail, so you create a stepped or hollow rail on the inside…That helps to reduce the mass…

The exterior glassing can be lightened by using 2 oz. cloth…I’ve only used 4 oz. and as I said above, I’ve not come close to breaking one…even in DOH surf…

I’m starting a couple of new boards, so I’m going to modify my techniques in pursuit of a lighter board for travel…

I still feel that a board with some mass is a very good thing…It requires greater leg strength and a refined style of surfing…But, the feeling of glide and power is intoxicating

All of that being said, I’m really encouraged with all of the new approaches to a proven, time tested method…

I’m looking forward to your progress…Keep us posted…

PaulJensen

Keep on pushing the boundries of hollow board design…!!!..

A goal for light boards- whatever shape, choice of materials and method of construction: one pound of weight per foot of length.

Thanks , that sounds like a reasonable method for a quick guage!

When I build a kiteboard ,I weigh each individual component, shaped foam core, cut cloth fabrics, resin and any other component like fin boxes and footstrap inserts… This gives me a very good idea what the finished board weight will be. I even document these weight measurements and finished board weights for future changes…

I’ll be monitoring each component of my new 5’ 8" hollow kite-surfboard and adjust as necessary to achive a 6 to 6 1/2lb. goal…

Thanks again… Great info here at Sway’s!!

A.P…:slight_smile:

I did some more work today. I have the 5 1/2 of 11 ribs sub-framed and the sub-frame of the stringer done. I dont have a digital camera but my buddy is stopping by with his camera tomorrow to take pics. I will post ASAP.

I attached a pic of a skimboard I made a few years back


Paul I did not know that you glassed the inside AND outside of the skins… I can see how that can help, however Im afraid that after I glass the skin, I wont be able to bend it to the correct shape to stretch around the complex curvature of the top deck. I was planning to lay the deck out in several pieces.

as a former owner of a hollow wave surfboard i can say that they definitely have a drum effect and amplify any and all sounds which is kind of cool on glassy days.you will also find these propertys to be useful say when a drum is needed at a beach party and there are no bongo’s available or when it is needed to communicate with dolphins or fish to find a good break . as far as wieght i dont recall it being that heavy i used to carry this thing from oxnard to ventura on my bike it wasn’t light but it was pretty much indistructable and probably still around i would highly suggest that you install a drain/vent or better yet a bilge pump to remove the ballast water used to keep it stabalised.but i will admit it sounds like a cool project .good luck