Death to poopee makers

General Discussion
21
Quote:
when i step back and really look at things...traditional surfboard making materials and methods seems so antiquated and rediculous...water incompatible mat'ls, hand made laminates, hand sanding...its like stepping back in time

And isn’t it ridiculous that surfboards still have to paddled with our arms and propelled only by the wave’s energy (gravity)? How Antiquated!

Sorry you can’t see the beauty in those simple, timeless methods of surfboard creation from a less hectic time. I guess the line in Endless Summer about the lack of parking meters didn’t register with you either, huh?

Some people like to cram technology and “progress” into even their non-work life. Me? I’m the kind of guy who drives a 1960s italian car to work.

As for the risk from chemical exposure, it is a real one. And it would be nice to eliminate all of it. But I’m afraid this won’t register much with surfers so if Bert’s project is to be used as marketing material, I doubt it’ll be effective. As a society, we have much greater risks that we happily accept every single day. (did i mention i’m driving a 60s car to work? ha!)

22
Quote:

Some people like to cram technology and “progress” into even their non-work life. Me? I’m the kind of guy who drives a 1960s italian car to work.

Photos please!

I used to have a 15 year old italian car. I guess they built them better in the 60s…

regards,

Håvard

23

Good point. Why should we listen to anyone whose work is funded by vested interest? Well here’s the website for the American Chemical Society, one that has not funded Greg’s work. Check it out.

Meanwhile we have a group parading around begging to be excused from compliance to Federal Law. I resent that they could have any influence over my exposure. But I don’t have to worry because they won’t.

http://www.chemistry.org/portal/a/c/s/1/acsdisplay.html?DOC=industry%5C2002_emerging.html

Sports and Materials Chemistry: Developing Innovative Materials for Environmentally Safe Surf Boards

Presented by Greg Loehr, president, Resin Research

As surfing has skyrocketed in popularity over the past three decades, board design and technology have strived to keep up with surfing advances in the water. The majority of manufactured surfboards are composed of polyurethane foam, fiberglass, and polyester resins. Innovations since the early 1980s have come through innovative raw materials, epoxy resins, board design, and polyurethane forms and are currently being made in the area of environmentally safe surfboards.

Greg Loehr, an innovator in this area, began to experiment with epoxy surfboards in 1982. This epoxy technology greatly reduced board weights which increased maneuverability and responsiveness. Early difficulties were that these boards could become unstable after exposure to prolonged heat and sunlight. The next decades were spent modifying resins to make the boards harder, UV-stable, and to fine tune the epoxies themselves. Later epoxies were recyclable and less toxic, and this began a crusade to make the lightest, strongest, most environmentally friendly surfboards possible. This presentation will discuss the history and materials science behind these surfboards and explain the process of building a high performance surfboard.

Greg Loehr is the founder and owner of Resin Research, a laboratory committed to the advancement of surfboard materials and technology, and Greg Loehr Surfboards, his surfboard design label. Throughout the surfing world, he is known as an innovator, a surfing activist, and as a rightful member of the East Coast Surfing Legends Hall of Fame.

24

Hey Slim,

Your obvious narrow mindedness failed you from understanding the point.

I cant help to notice how you seem to like to take personal jabs at gearheads like me…you seem to want to inject your own values, often negative, in threads where you really dont belong.

This is a technical thread,

and youre a technophobe,

so who really cares what you think regarding technical or semi-technical matters?

You dont shape, you dont glass, but you love to personally attack techno types.

WRT to vehicles you choose drive, how does that and parking meters have anything to do with the topic at hand?

You are free to start your own thread regarding things that really inspire you…more solefull retro stuff perhaps?

When was the last time you started a new thread?

When will you buy a blank and shape some soul into it with your own bare hands?

You seem very frustrated…

Inside of you, is there a frustrated soul shaper trying to get out?

Can you handle the truth?

25

“I’m the kind of guy who drives a 1960s italian car to work.”

MY experience with Italian cars is that maintaining one is a full time job. This was in the 70’s. I suppose they were made better in the 60’s. Excellent for air quality too.

Oh how I love driving behind one of them.

Pretty much says it all.

26

Dang!

I remember when Swaylocks was fun.

Where have those days gone.

All valid points, just can’t stand the bitterness on both sides anymore

For a second i thought I was reading the Surfers Journal spread. I checked out of that one around post #50. I am now checking out of this one too.

cya

Drew

27

“What I implied is that “scientific” studies are most credible when they are neither funded by, nor performed by those with vested interests.”

Are you implying that MSDS sheets are somehow part of a bigger conspiracy? Just curious:-)

28

in times past , you could run a corparation , send workers into an asbestos mine and make profit on there hard work , knowing full well the hazards , it was within the companies rights to withhold damaging information , maybe even blurt out some propaganda saying all the management use asbestos pillow slips or something …

ever since ive been in the surfboard industry , ive had to deal with false rumours being spread about the dangers of eps and epoxy …

in whose interests was it , for people to keep using toxic foams and resins containing huge amounts of solvents , both known to cause cancer and brain damage ??

in whose interest was it to make false accusations about resins and foams that in reality were far safer ??

you have crew who make , sell , and distribute raw materials to board builders , they feed the board builders propaganda about how bad epoxies are and , oh no we cant sell you eps blanks …

wake up crew , were in the 21st century …

and practices that were common in the 1800s , sending ignorant workers into the asbestos mines,so the company can profit at the workers expense are just plain wrong…

for years ive had to correct everyone i meet about the facts regarding the safety of epoxy resins and eps foam , now where did they get the wrong information from in the first place ???

yep , standard poopee industry propaganda , the status quo , had to resort to dirty tricks and actually spread lies …

now all im doing is actually highlighting the facts , facts which can easily be found …

whats the difference between outright misinformation and propaganda and the actual facts ??

the difference is whether resin and blank manufacturers can keep there monopoly, by treating customers like 19th century asbestos miners and keeping them in the dark and feeding them bullshit …

o but wait !!!

that bullshit has soul …

dont forget , we have staff to , its one of my responsabilities to make sure i have the facts about every chemical i could potentially expose a staff member to …

like i said the report was for internal use , it wasnt a marketing angle ??

i ended up finding and colating information that blew me away , some of which i thought would be of interest …

i also collected information on an array of different paint systems , foams , resins and so on …

its our job to educate anyone who we could potentially expose to danger …

its little wonder , the information would be viewed as skewed …

thats the way its been done by the blue corner for years …

now the red corner hold up a fact sheet , and the blue corner cry unfair??

when for all the years past , the blue corner held up a lie chart and spewed blatant propaganda and if anyone in the red corner even said boo or tried to argue against the status quo , they were held in derision and written off as having no idea …

i heard a classic comment the other day , from a guy who is developing some hot new technology …

he said " yea when they (poopee builders) finally wake up , they will feel like the guy who was the last to know his girlfriend has been cheating on him "

getting lied to all this time ??

now i agree with keith and some others who posted similar thoughts …

no chemicals are safe …

but compare the facts …

building one polyester board with p/u resin, a full spray , and protek finish , creates 23 times more VOC’s and dangerous toxins , than building a modern epoxy/eps …

to be honest , before i went looking for the facts , i was thinking that an epoxy board might be half or maybe 30 or 40% less toxic , but not 2300% less toxic …

those figures shocked me …

holly was right , the stuff really is evil …

slim if you want to wallow in the cyanide gas and dangerous VOC’s , ogle your soulful creation while bowing to its creator, go for it …

im agreeing with meecrafty …

and while im at it , ive noticed a lot of so called backyarders and non experts who step up in support of the status quo , who seem to drop the ocasional comment that gives the impression they know more than there letting out …

do we really have swaynonomous poopee builders posing as concerned loyal advocates of the craft ???

no wonder its a dying industry …

have i crossed the line again ? by highlighting a few simple facts …

have i shattered somebodies world of ideals ?

have i disrepected those held in high esteem ?

o well …you get that when you highlight the facts …

regards

BERT

someone accused me of not doing my cause justice by bagging poopee , when i should be spruking up how good my stuff is …

other wise i could be turning people away …

i took that comment seriously , and decided that any future references to poopee should be factual and not my opinions …

29

A lot of the problem is in interpreting the info, and in past wrong info being taken as fact. Epoxy used to be considered a carcinogen. It is not. It can cause allergic sensitization, an avoidable problem with no long-term issues.

But another point you bring up, Bert, is release of cyanide gas. No picnic. Also not a problem at the levels released, below the levels in many foods, and FAR below the levels in the cigarette the shaper will smoke right after the board is done.

The styrene, OTOH, is often a REAL hazard at levels used in glass shops, and can be EXPECTED to cause neurological dysfunction in the form of loss of cognitive ability at levels used in poorly ventilated areas. Acetone and MEKP are no picnic either. Any contact with any of these should be avoided 100% in any conscientious shop through the use of gloves, respirators, and good ventilatory clearance.

30

…Elova foam in Argentina is MDI…but dont have good foam yet …Homeblown isnt good too…

31

Hey Drew,

Just checked back to #50 of the TSJ thread.

It’s true what Solo says.

Unless you have ever paid for advertising in a surf mag

you can not expect anything, but negative response to new ideas from the pulps. Even if you win!

And you can expect to pay for 3 years before you get any help. NO exceptions unless you have help from a world champ.

I had that, but later.

How would you feel if you had invested a ton of time and money in a new idea that just won a major “promotional” contest only to be branded “The Attack of the Dreaded Lee Press-On Fin”? By a major Mag! I know how I felt.

Where is the love? Where is my name? Why don’t you mention my product?

I guess I should not be angry. And why should I be?

I needed a good bitch slap in public like that.

Because I’m just a pimple on the ass end of the industry.

I know my place.

Anywho:

For a good time sit back and read the controvesy as it unfolds right here. We’ve never before had this level of opportunity to both watch as spectator or even participate in the controversy. But better bring your A game because these guys are loaded for bear and there is no turning back for them because there is nothing there.

Thus far I havn’t seen anyone step into the ring who didnt want to be there to try his ideas against the new ideas in a competative format. It’s a free will contest. It’s mostly just hot air though.

The writing is on the wall. Laws are active. It’s just pockets of resistance from insurgents who refuse to surrender. Like shooting fish in a barrel. It’s too easy for the gunner and the fish don’t like the odds either.

m

Epoxy is not heaven, but it is a damn site better than the alternative. The point has been argued to death in Washington D.C. and Polyester lost. The end.

32

NO offense MS. I was just guessing at the number of the other thread.

I repsect your opinion Mark. But I am referring you now to post #26 of this tthread.

I shan’t return. I promise this time.

Drew

33

Back in the 80’s, there was a community of people who chose to go live in an isolated settlement, way up toward Julian in SoCal. They had a mutual affliction. Each of them had a condition called panallergy. They were allergic to everything. They wore pure undyed cotton clothing, no wool either, no dyes or synthetics of any kind. The grew their own food, ate nothing processed. No manufactured products such as toothpaste, soaps, etc. You get the idea. It doesn’t even matter if their affliction was physically or psychologically induced, likely a combination of both. They believed that they had to avoid exposure to anything they believed they were allergic to. It was an endless exercise in chasing their own tails. They got more sensitive as time went on. They forgot that everything, absolutely everything, has the potential to be poorly tolerated, irritating, or harmful in some fashion. You can drown from drinking too much really fresh water. You can get pancreatitis from eating too much rice after starving, as happened to some Vietnamese immigrants in the late 70’s. Aspirin has more side effects than I can count. People eat, wear, clean with, and otherwise use and work with hazardous materials, knowingly or unwittingly, their entire lives. Watch out for that vitamin pill. It’s safer to eat the cereal box than the cereal. Every read the ingredients in Dreyer’s ice cream or your loaf of bread? How about your deodorant or hair products, or your sunblock? Radon under your house? Outgasing of formaldehyde from your household construction materials such as particle board, or when you notice that weird smell that is the sizing in new clothing that gives some people headaches and dizzyness, when you walk through Macy’s. Ever use Bondo? Have you been aware of exposure to asbestos when you have walked through an old public building being renovated three floors up and someone forgot to cover an air duct? Only takes one particle, you know, and zap cancer thirty years later. People die every day, singly and in great numbers, in industrial accidents, wars, and stupidities that could have been prevented. AARRGGHHH there’s no escape!!

Choose your poison. Absorb it with foreknowledge. Take whatever precautions you deem appropriate. Don’t leave home without an environmental suit, or just hide at home. Debate the issue. But, please, worry only your own worries.

I gotta crawl back up to the attic.

34

I agree with much of what is stated here. All chemicals need to be treated with respect. But talking about changes in the Houston shipping channel clouds the issue and have nothing to do with us. Making the big bad world seem so much worse doesn’t make us any better. It also doesn’t change impending laws regarding the reduction of emissions from resins we use.

That article Mark quoted above was from a presentation I gave at the annual American Chemical Society Expo. Pretty special thing to be invited to speak in front of a bunch of PhD’s. Many ways a humbling experience.

I have, and Bert has too, stated many times that there is nothing wrong with building poopees. There isn’t anything particularly wrong with them accept that they aren’t what we consider cutting edge anymore. There are developing technologies that are far better in every way and ST is proof of that. Unfortunately those technologies are being shunned by the traditional board building establishment and at the same time are being embrased by factories offshore. And that’s our warning.

I do have issue with petitions that ask for special treatment from the government in regards to the continuation of polluting so surboard builders don’t have to change. That’s just absurd! The surfboard industry should be ashamed of itself. What we are actually talking about in regards to change are some small changes in the timing of how boards go through a domestic surfboard factory production. That’s all. From the surfboard industry response you’d think we were being asked to send a man to Mars.

35

No need to exit.

Just saying be careful, for your own health; that there are huge egos bouncing around in here. Reading and getting involved may garner a reaction. And not all reactions are appreciative.

This is where the egos come to spar.

The title is a kind of warning too:-) m

36

Oh Hell, This means that I have to stop drinking my MTBE too. What next Beer?

37

as i stroll into the line of fire, i guess i might be hit by shrapnel…but here goes.

personally, i have surfed since '82(seems long to me, but small to others…) and have enjoyed

my experience…as i have getting more interested in surfboard construction, which brought me here.

now i don’t claim to be a “techno” kinda guy, but while i see the point in the epoxies and new technologies

developed, i feel a vibe from both sides that the other is “wrong”.

i have ridden 1, and only one, epoxy board…

to me(personally, again not a swipe to the general unruliness) it felt, “off”…dunno how to say it but not

“right”(btw, i enjoy " " 's, sorry but it’s me…) the feeling of being out of the water that high(bouyancy?) was a

hard thing to get used to. i mentioned the feeling to the shaper i borrowed it from, and he said…"yeah i think i might

have made that one too light"…which struck me as funny, b/c i didn’t want to make that comment, since it was my first time

on epoxy…that being said, i want to try other “updated” ways of covering boards…bamboos, wood veneers, etc.

another side note…when it was hitting the water, i could NOT get used to the “high” pitched noise of the water cracking

on the underside/rails…but i guess that’s my 2 cents.

as i read this, i added ZERO information, except personal experience, with the ONE i have tried.

this in NO way does i mean any disrespect, but as a backyard “builder” how can i get my cake and eat it too???

or am i just not seeing the possiblity?

just curious…

blind_in_1_ear…apparently wearing blinders too…

P.S. anyone got a “heavy” epoxy board out there??? i am 5-10 250, so not scared of weight…

just seems like the epoxies i see/feel are light as heck…which leads me to this question:

IS “LIGHTER” BETTER??? OR AM I MISSING SOMETHING? (aside from you know the environment, cancers, and the

general dependancy on petroleum based materials…you know the “little” things… B-))

38
Quote:
You dont shape, you dont glass, but you love to personally attack techno types.

I have never intended to make a personal attack on anyone in my entire life. If that’s what you are getting out of my posts, something is very wrong: either in how they are interpreted or how they are written. So for the record, on various issues: I am very interested in the way that Bert and Greg build boards and from what I’ve read of them, they are also good guys. I care about the environment and health risks, to some extent or another, and so of course have nothing against new products that may be safer to use. I don’t like the way Surftech boards surf. I don’t find poly boards to be fragile for the way I, and 90% of surfers, use them (and feel the need to point this out as it is often overlooked). I am more attracted to different shapes of surfboards than different materials, for some reason, and feel the market shows this to be true for most surfers (and this might be good for some new-technology developers to realize). I don’t believe dismissing current poly shapers as either old-fashioned ignorant losers or deliberate misinformation spreading evildoers (as happened in the surfers journal thread and many other threads) is accurate and even if it were to be true, would not be a good marketing approach for epoxy/sandwich board makers.

Quote:
WRT to vehicles you choose drive, how does that and parking meters have anything to do with the topic at hand?

It was about contrasting the ultra-modern highly technical nature of much of our daily life, the “daily grind” as it were, with the potentially simple nature of traditional surfboard sculpting and riding. Sorry the point didn’t get through.

Quote:
You seem very frustrated...

Quite the contrary. I’m just pointing out that for me, life is good, and I don’t see surfing and surfboards as a deeply flawed activity and product filled with massiveproblems that need to be solved by some sort of technological breakthrough. Which is not to say that I disagree with what guys like Bert and Greg are trying to do: just that I think a more positive approach and avoidance of dismissing the past/current history of surfboard design and shaping would be nice to see. Bill Barnfield’s posts about taking smaller steps, an evolution, rather than a revolution are right on.

Anyway… here are my old italian cars. obviously the fiat 238 campervan gets more duty as a surf vehicle and the early fiat 124 spider gets driven when i need to get somewhere in a vaguely timely manner.

39

Those are nice looking well maintained vehicles.

I’ve seen you attacked fairly visciously. Never understood why anyone felt so threatened. But I have one question that may help you avoid some criticism in the future?

You said, " I don’t find poly boards to be fragile for the way I, and 90% of surfers, use them (and feel the need to point this out as it is often overlooked)."

I just don’t know where you get the 90% figure from. Perhaps speaking just for yourself and leaving the reference to eveyone else out may remove the animosity. Unless we have proof for our figures and statistice it is best to argue based personal experience.

Ah, see how hard it is to really make a case? Cant use hearsay must substantiate claims etc. Makes us work. Keeps us honest. Gives everyone an edge. m

40

Mark, I throw out the 90% number based on observation over the years. As I’ve said before, I have never broken a surfboard. And in all my days in the water, (what, 100 days a year x 20 years), I’ve never seen a surfboard break with my own eyes. I only have one friend who has a broken one.

I have seen and received damage, sure. Quite a bit of it. But nothing that wasn’t easily/affordably fixed. I got my bigger wave board that I’ll probably be surfing in about 15 minutes, a 6’11" thruster for free because it had a big chunk out of the side about 8" long by 2" in. Fixed it and though you can see where the new foam went in, you can’t feel a thing and I’ve surfed it and couldn’t tell a thing. I’ve already posted my quiver and how old the damn things are and they just don’t die for me and the guys I surf with.

I know Hawaii is different. I bet guys even break plenty of boards at Ocean Beach (sf). But it sure seems to me that people buy new surfboards because they want to try a different size/shape, and not because their old boards died.

I could be wrong. Of course. This is just the internet and wild speculation based on one’s own experience is somewhat tolerated, no?