I know this one has been brought up before but some of you on here have a pretty good idea when it comes to making a board or six. Yet skilled surfboard manufacturers and I don’t mean just shapers are probably some of the most poorly paid tradesman around. Was everyone trying to undercut each other before Chinese imports came along? Is it just accepted that surfboard manufacturing equals poor pay. Is it just supply and demand? Would there be much for some of you to lose if you put your prices up? I scratch my head over this one sometimes.
If a plumber or a carpenter turn up in the flash 4x4 they say he’s doing alright. If a surfboard manufacturer turns up in the same car he is charging too much for his boards.
Surely one of the classic surfing paradoxes hey.
Everyone’s like, for GENERATIONS, saying “Oh yeah, surfboards! the Magic Craft!” Second most discussed subject in the sport after the actual waves. A board that fits you is one of the best things that ever happens to you as a surfer. Everyone HAILS the top shaper as a guru almost beyond imagining…
but f**ked if anyone would pay him more than the materials plus bugger-all percent profit for the actual board…
and if he DARED to try to make more than a subsistence, everyone would be like “Oh man, sell-out! Rip-off!” etc etc.
Not being cynical or nothing but it’s a bit ironic just how many core surfing values seem to result in either a) keeping surf spots all to yaself and b) keeping surfboards cheap and shapers poor.
Nick-
Mate, you hit the Nail on the Head. Your words are what I am living through right now. There
are get-togethers here for surfboard makers extolling the virtues of core shapers and guys leaving
messages on the answering machine how they love their new stick, "Can’t say enough good things
about your boards…"
Literally whilst this is all going down, I have people shorting me 5 or 10 bucks grumbling about how
much their board was that I rushed so they could use it on their ANNUAL family trip to Tavarua, driving
off in their new BMW that doesn’t even have plates on it yet…
…and it’s been that way since I can remember.
ha ha, go figure. I’ve been doing this for over 3 decades, and there has never been a time where
the “industry” is lucrative for the smaller guys in the common business sense. The only way I’ve been
able to make a decent living is to increase numbers of boards produced, then, as you say, accusations
of being a “sell out” and “greedy” start flying, never mind the decades of effort it took to get to that point.
I consider myself VERY fortunate, yet the memories of straining to build good boards for years but having
to bend to the “bro/brah” deal are brought to the surface with your well-stated post. Thanks for appreciating
us!
Thanks,
George
Josh
“Lost…” Matt said it well: “I’m the last generation to make it as a backyard shaper.”
How true.
George, that is so on, I need a new radiator in my van, 89.00 per hour labor, 2 hours and 250.00 for the core, not a chance I will or would weasle my mechanic over the price.
The public has been titty fed on such cheap surfboards for 50-60 years, with the board builder barely getting by and many of us have had to resort to the “bank of alternative financing” when times got bad. They also went to jail as there were very few banks that would actually loan money to small surfboard businesses.
I drive a 20 year old van and cringe many times when a client askes the poison question, " what is it going to cost?". Not many customers are ready to spend over a thousand dollars for a surfboard, but if you had the same amount of work done to a car or boat, it would be 2,500 to 3 grand minimum.
I try to steer away from the sanded finish short boards, youngsters want flash and for cheap, plus a 4 ounce shortie can’t be built strong enough to last long enough to justify 750.00, what they SHOULD sell for.
I don’t lose a lot of orders to being expensive, but some potential clients are put off by price, they have become complacent to 450.00 dollar longboards from clandestine builders and there is NO way to compete, so I avoid trying to get a piece of that action, they are looking to catch a wave as cheaply as possible, I try to fill my tank as cheaply as possible.
Bill Bahne and I had many a talk about this before the economy went belly up, don’t try to compete with offshore, build the highest quality, best riding boards you can, we can only build so many high end boards, so why give them away to customers who in the end won’t really appreciate what they have.
I’d like to think my platinum card holding customers are in endless supply, but in all reality, they are an endangered species so important to our sybionic survival.
…yes, its exactly like you and Plusoneshaper say
also that for most people (subconsciously) a guy who started building boards for himself and friends (like most) 25 - 40 years ago, “can not” charge top dollars for a board now…
and the machine democracy that a wannabe shaper can go there and order some bring lam stickers and let the shape in a glass shop
so the common people dont see any difference between these boards and top dollars ones
this trade is relatively new in the production and professional way in comparison with other craft
plus that in the past “we all know each other” “we were all friends” concept
Jim, our friend Greg Loehr has the best quote ever on this subject. While talking about this one time
about 15 years ago, he said:
‘‘We’re the holy men of the sport! We’re SUPPOSED to suffer!’’
I still laugh every time I remember that.
No mystery here. Ya can’t squeeze blood from a turnip. Especially when all of the turnips in this sport are very adept at getting by on some ‘gig’ or another with varying degrees of grift.
Quote:
"Lost..." Matt said it well: "I'm the last generation to make it as a backyard shaper."How true.
I doubt Matt was getting rich when he was just making surfboards (by hand?). By now “Lost” is a clothing company first and foremost, isn’t it? Doesn’t he even have an energy drinK??? In the shops surfboards are treated as just another accessory along with sandals, watches and sunglasses. Actually the watches and shades are up front and the boards are usually in the back.
Perhaps it’s best to think of surfboard makers as artists. Many are either “dilettante/hobbyists” (like me, backyarders). We love surfboards and we would be flattered that anyone even think of buying our board and if we make $100 a board we’re cool. We have day jobs.
Then you have the hordes of “emerging artists” ones who are dead serious about their craft and spend a lot of hours on it. It’s their main, if not only career focus in life. They may or may not make their living at it, but in any case it’s a precarious living. They are subject to the whims of fashion. These are about every shaper you know. Sultans of Swing.
Then there are “established artists.” These guys are doing good. They are known. They make their living doing their art. No question about it. Think Matt Biolos, Doc Lausch or Al Merrick.
Then there are the “masters.” Their work goes in museums. They charge top dollar and have waiting lists for their work. You’ve got to work at it a long time and make consistently quality craft to be recognized in this way. Think Greg Noll or Reynolds Yater.
I was kind of pissed off when I read it but Skip Frye was quoted somewhere as saying that the backyard guys are the real enemy.
So… is the “real” enemy the stealth guy who builds and sells boards out of his garage for less than the retailers?
Anybody here ever tried to chisel down the price on a car deal? Made a low-ball offer on a house? Do any of us pay full price at a garage sale?
C’mon… it’s human nature.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/wayoflife/02/13/negotiate.anything/
Maybe the “real” enemy is the cheapskate consumer.
Quote:
Then there are “established artists.” These guys are doing good. They are known. They make their living doing their art. No question about it. Think Matt Biolos, Doc Lausch or Al Merrick.
I know Doc…like him just fine. He is a good shaper, but what him, Biolos and Merrick do now is not art. Plain and simple. They mostly reproduce like kinds of boards. It’s kind of like selling a print of some other artist original work. There is no art involved…only good copy technique. Mass ignorance, customers putting too much faith in wanna be gurus and over fragile egos are some of the reasons for many of the issues regarding money in the Surfboard side of the industry.
The self reliant guys with good reputations do pretty well for their lifestyle. Some make good money like those above churining out reproductions of earlier work. Not that the above guys can’t do good work on their own, only that what they do is mostly just mass production. Like assembling a car.
Board prices are low because of an abundance of cheap surfboards over the years. Shops always looking for the cheap wholesale to turn a profit, Shapers desperate to become valid overnight that sell to these shops, Asian imports and other stuff over the years. It’s not real hard to figure out. Not to mention…some shapers treat it like a business with insurance and etc. Others don’t and can charge less because of it. All can get to the stuff to make surfboards the same.
BTW: I saw a Merrick the other day I would rather have ( if I were a smaller guy ) than some shapers art. The original difference among shapers was what used to be fun about buying surfboards. It’s gotten to where the stuff can be put out and few can tell the actual difference.
If you ever get to see a robot cnc machine or robot welder at work it is just beautiful. Precision at its best. Even when you crank out a board with an electric planer the fact that you use a tool makes that part a science. Using a ruler too!
But the things that make surfboard manufacturing an art is not absent even with the robot/machine involvement. The creator of the machinery involved and the design aspect of the board is not lost or lessened artistically speaking. Even if designed in CA and made into a file, sent to Cobra and transformed into a beautiful board. Totally beautiful process and at times awesome. When the value and quality surpassed the “artistic way” of doing things, only then did I hear the complaining start.
Also when you mention certain names in the industry the bile taste that the name provokes can over shadow the effort taken to get to where they are at this point of their career.
The quest for performance has also made it difficult to ask too much for surfboards.
-
Boards got lighter and lighter and weaker and weaker.
-
The need for new models to push the envelope also made for planned obsolescence.
So surfers are buying shortboards that are pretty much trashed within the first surf to 12 months.
Most people’s other sporting equipment will last longer but is also mass produced.
Or a considered an outdated design within a year or two.
I’d say this is part of the reason why shapers who rely on shortboard buyers may hate Surftech. They made them lighter and stronger.
Always plenty of people ready to point out how ugly they are under the surface or how hard they are to fix.
Fact remains they are here to stay and they showed lighter can be stronger.
I’ve noticed lately some surfboard websites have blurbs about new foams or glass options which offer stronger boards. Step in the right direction.
It’s kind of fortunate that longboards and retro shapes have supplied an aging surfing population with boards that don’t need to be as light as potato chips and shapers can/should educate their customers about what will last longer.
Trying to push surfboards as art does not incurr one iota of confidence in being able to go out and clang rails in ever more crowded line ups.
If you’re a surfboard maker who truly believes you’re an artist stick a frame around the thing and try selling them to art galleries not surfshops.
Showing the technical side of the craft will help people appreciate the skill and and knowledge that goes into making a great board shape and help increase its value in the eyes of the consumer.
Quote:
If you ever get to see a robot cnc machine or robot welder at work it is just beautiful. Precision at its best. Even when you crank out a board with an electric planer the fact that you use a tool makes that part a science. Using a ruler too!
But the things that make surfboard manufacturing an art is not absent even with the robot/machine involvement. The creator of the machinery involved and the design aspect of the board is not lost or lessened artistically speaking. Even if designed in CA and made into a file, sent to Cobra and transformed into a beautiful board. Totally beautiful process and at times awesome. When the value and quality surpassed the “artistic way” of doing things, only then did I hear the complaining start.
Also when you mention certain names in the industry the bile taste that the name provokes can over shadow the effort taken to get to where they are at this point of their career.
Good point on the machine. Is creating a machine a form of art. I think so. I don’t think mass producing the machine once it’s been created is so much of an art. Nothing wrong with either one, but kind of like my Sacred Craft thread…I think misnamed. I personally find nothing sacred about equipment or surfboards. I don’t worship them, nor surfing, nor the shapers that create them. I admire good boards, shapers and waves and appreciate the various good attributes of each.
Also…certain names get the Bile because it’s deserved or because someone had to get stepped over or on for those folks to get where they are. Also…hype marketing. Others are not that way at all and folks are just jealous of sucess. I see it with shapers who don’t like it when a non shaper can explain and sell a surfboard better than they can. Thats why I have always said…retailers and shapers have always been in a strange situation with each other.
I never allow anything to get in the way of me giving credit to sucess as long as it was honest. Even if I don’t care for some things about folks. Sucess itself can be an art.
hey bonko
i backyard everything for about 40slides an hour
pretty good for no overheads
i got a jewellery bench and shed
getting a new shaping/glassing bay this month
so one board is an extra 3 hundy a week in the hand
laughing
would i make a business out of it
no
Quote:
hey bonko
i backyard everything for about 40slides an hour
pretty good for no overheads
i got a jewellery bench and shed
getting a new shaping/glassing bay this month
so one board is an extra 3 hundy a week in the hand
laughing
would i make a business out of it
no
Sounds like a business to me…ha ha. even if small.
The whole thing is bizarre to me. It’s kind of like New Zealand in the respect of come for the scenery but not the money. I liked Greg Loehrs idea of a board that is five times more durable than a PU/PE and probably not a great deal more in cost to the consumer to boot(?), but I can also just imagine the screams of surfers everywhere if the price went up. Even for a board that is probably far better value for money than the increase in price suggests.
If this tech takes off will surfboard manufacturers try and undercut each other for a piece of the sale pie? Greg, if you are reading this, is this what you meant by the industry shooting itself in the foot? Am I just sticking my hand out? Should I stick a big girls blouse on? Or maybe I should just do some work…
That’s bonkabitch to you thanks Paul.