Amen
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Quote:So, the mainstream surf industry is in bad shape for a while. Impulse toy buying is in equally bad shape. The smart move ( though when has that ever worked for the surf biz? ) would be to generate and work with some real stuff, to make boards that perform better and can be proven to perform better.
Makes sense to me. Quantifying anything in this sport has always had difficulties … everything is so subjective. So in order to advance anything you have to have something that’s so advanced that even a subjective judgement (which is all we have) can’t offer a negative review without looking ridiculas. This has kept the status quo safe for half a century. Given this, it’s amazing what trial and error has gotten us … amazing at what today’s surfboard can do. Hat’s are off to the fact that the sport has remained custom, whether quantified or not, it has advanced through this custom built trial and error in spite of itself. In fact it could be argued that even with telemitry we may not have gone from Simmons to Simon any faster than we did … 25 years.
But we’ve also seen advancment slow to a crawl in equipment. It got to a point about 20 years ago where we’d advanced equipment past where the guys in the water were capable of going. Using your flight analogy, Chuck Y had to learn to fly the damn things and that didn’t happen day one even with telemitry. So it seems to me now the best pilots (Kelly & co.) have. Moving forward from here could/should take new revolutionary equipment. Whether we have telemitry or not, whether we can quantify through numbers or not, it’s best that we are careful not to jeapordize the trail and error component.
Computers may be able to make some sense of the thousands of variables and quantify some aspects of design. They will eventually do this and do this without the drawbacks that the world’s still best computer, the human brain, has to deal with , emotion, passion. But it’s easy to see that even with custom building’s drawbacks it’s still at this point is the best and any technological advancment needs to include this very important aspect. Moving forward with only quantified technology would prove to be a mistake. With all due respect to quantifiable technology, trial and error is still very powerful and as long as this aspect is cheap and easy to use it will still be a formitable design tool.
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Makes sense to me. Quantifying anything in this sport has always had difficulties … everything is so subjective.
You beat me to it on that one. It’s in the eye of the beholder as they say. Ones man trash is another mans treasure, etc.
But “yeah dude that board totally rocks” doesn’t pay the bills. And if intrigue from people about making surfboards had a dollar value in this industry, I’d have been retired a long, long time ago.
I’ll some it up in another way.
Shaper: “Would you like to buy that board that your drooling over that I marked up by $100 so I could make at least something off it?”
Customer: “Umm, nah sorry.”
Shaper: “How about a cheap sweatshirt that I bought for $5 in China and then got screenprinted and marked up by several hundred percent?”
Customer: “Yeah sure!”
That sort of marketing is just priceless don’t you think?
your wrong reverb
you can buy a fine guitar for 200
i got a vintage matsumoko for 170NZ thats 90us
and its as good as a strat
you might have heard of maton
a maton makes martin sound pretty average
they are australian made and you can get a good one for 500us
the chinese guitars today are as good as the american stuff from the 70 and 80s
its the player anyway
your attitude shows ignorance of the players ability and creativity
a bad craftsman always blames the tools
top of the line ???
thats so elitest
i want my boards affordable for any walk of life (not just the wealthy)
show us pictures of your “top ofthe line” composite sandwich boards"
because if your shortboards are not 4.5 pound composite epoxys, then they are not “top of the line”
they the same as every other piece of crap PU potato chip
top the line compsand 700$nz
thats 350$US
anyway if people are stupid enough to spend 850 on a board when they can get exactly the same board for 400
thats there own stupid fault and they deserve to parted with their money
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Someone’s off their medication, and just a wee bit cranky.
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“So, the mainstream surf industry is in bad shape for a while.”
Let me just say, HOORAY. I for one wish the “mainstream surf industry” would just dry up and blow away, along with the surf mags (or should I say the shoe ad mags), the “lifestyle” and all the rest of it…
Amen! Ditto! or…take your pick!
Alert !
Business opportunity for jaded board builders.
Currently accepting investors in my new shark breeding and training program. This business model will be available on a franchise basis worldwide with a view to addressing the anomalies currently being experienced in the board building trade due to the growth of the “mainstream surf industry”.
The aim is to train thousands of sharks to swim menacingly about and bite through legropes thereby scaring the crowds shitless and leaving no one in the surf.
Brilliant don’t you think ? Should fix the industry right up.
PM me with your bank details.
Cheers
Mooneemick
Can they sniff out foreign imports?
hah, yeah you yanks are in a fine position to give economic advice
just getting bored with the soggy sao sessions round here
ill sell me boards for whatever i want and if it puts a retailer out of business
then ive achieved something worthwhile
I reckon thats about it Paul, If you can sell your boards cheaper and of the same or better quality than what’s out there and can still make the amount of coin you want then you will be the one smiling. The is no price gestapo in the surfboard industry as far as I know.
When I first started building boards I used to charge about $380 for a PU Pe shortboard. This was quite a while ago.
Honestly I didn’t think my boards were of the same quality as the bigger name guys ( and they weren’t) so why would I try to compete with them. Then as my boards got better I put my prices up (and up and up…). Level playing field is a bunch of horseshit.
Some shapers just take themselves way too seriously.
Just making toys fellas.
On fancy new tech and readings and gauges and measurements.
How many blokes out there surf well enough to even know if they have their side fins arsed about?
On guitars. Know a bloke who just bought a new Maton for $3500. The friggin thing would want to play itself.
My $700 Takimine sounds just fine.
You are right there is no price gestapo.
You also forget to mention in America manufacturing surfboards in your backyard for retail sales is usually illegal due to zoning regulations. Many shops undercut the price because they are BREAKING THE LAW. Also known as cheating, back stabbing, lying, CROOKED SCUM BAGS.
I would think the socialist/pacifist government on NZ would want a piece of the tax action they are missing out on with you illegal barnyarders.
There is nothing like doing it right, legally and honestly. It makes looking in the mirror and closing your eyes a night a very nice thing indeed.
Your crooked snetiment gives sways a bad name and mostly verifys the virtues of many surfers too. Be different, try doing it legitamately.
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You are right there is no price gestapo.
You also forget to mention in America manufacturing surfboards in your backyard for retail sales is usually illegal due to zoning regulations. Many shops undercut the price because they are BREAKING THE LAW. Also known as cheating, back stabbing, lying, CROOKED SCUM BAGS.
I would think the socialist/pacifist government on NZ would want a piece of the tax action they are missing out on with you illegal barnyarders.
There is nothing like doing it right, legally and honestly. It makes looking in the mirror and closing your eyes a night a very nice thing indeed.
Your crooked snetiment gives sways a bad name and mostly verifys the virtues of many surfers too. Be different, try doing it legitamately.
I do build boards from my own property and I am legit. I have the DA to prove it from the local council, I am registered with the tax office for GST and I abide by the laws set out by the EPA and the rest of the governing bodies. I am smart enough to know the laws as they relate to home activities in THIS country so why shouldn’t I use them to my advantage and take as much of the market share as I can or want.
I do sleep very well at night because I give my customers what they want and I am able to bring in more profit per surfboard because of less overheads for my family.
Well good for you Enity! Anyone else doing it legally out there?
Also, you backyarders give yourself too much credit in the taking away business of those that are legit. Since you Enity are legit, you proive my point that you are happy doing things just as you do. It seems the illegal barnyarders have no influence on your business??? What’s the % retail tax you charge the customer in AUS??
This topic has raised its head many times on sways. Just another excuse for those who can’t cut it in the surfboard buisiness and probably are better suited for the lawn care business. I am sure they can “cut it” there.
Your patronising and rather schizophrenic replies intrigue me Otay.
All thats missing is the rub on the head with the knuckles and a “good one champ”.
First you call the backyarders thieves and scumbags, then in the next post you say we give ourselves too much credit by thinking we are taking any work from those with a factory off their personal living premises. Are they making a difference or not?
In Aus we charge a 10% good and services tax. Any more info than that you’ll have to talk to my accountant.
I am doing just fine at the moment. I even pay someone else to mow my lawn when I’m too busy.
The level playing field was tilted when some started using third world labour to produce their product, so I really dont think its the backyarders that have thrown the industry into disaray. The backyarders have always and will always be here and if we cant compete with them (whether legit or not)or the third world cheap labour then we dont deserve to be in business. Its an ever shrinking world and you have to have an edge to compete I guess.
Entity, you are missing the point of this thread - “Do Surfboard Manufacturers Rip Themselves?” Clearly the answer is yes! Are manufacturers making as much as they COULD. Price competition lowers the price standard for everyone. As long as the cheapest is available (all other things being equal) that will be the first to sell. When the lowest price becomes unavailable, the next lowest becomes the standard.
Sadly, all it takes is one short sighted individual to hurt everyone.
Luckly, because of the logistics of transportation, within a margin, one area of manufacturers can raise their prices to the point at which transportation cost equals the difference. Otay can overcharge charge what Entity charges by the shipping cost to Otay’s neighborhood. Otay can charge even more, by convincing the customer that Otay’s boards are better than Entity’s and worth the difference.
What manufacturers like Entity need to see is since he is the lowest priced manufacturer, when he raises his price, everyone else will raise their prices too.
Entity is not only ripping of the other manufacturers, He is ripping off himself.
The point I was trying to make earlier in this thread is that when Entity raises his price, the customer will look elsewhere, and then come back to Entity because Entity is still cheaper than Otay when considering the time and cost of getting the board elsewhere. The customer’s other alternative would be to quit surfing, which I really don’t think will happen.
Entity, you say you are doing well, and good for you, but are you doing as well as you could?
everysurfer
I must have missed the point also.
Explain again how Daren ( Entity ) is ripping anyone off !!! WTF !!!
He’s a professional board builder with a registered, tax paying business.
Are you ?
Mooneemick
Sorry Entity, my definition of backyarder is that of an illegal shop. If you are legal you aren’t a backyarder even if yourshop is literally in your back yard. Three boards a week or 30, legit is legit.
In my dealings with board manufacturers, the one’s who are legit, have permits, pay taxes are the most honest and dependable. Then those who cheat the system usually end up cheating you in someway or another.
My original comment was directed to silly in NZ, not specifically at you. If you have an accountant and a lawn boy how bad can life really be now?
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Sorry Entity, my definition of backyarder is that of an illegal shop. If you are legal you aren’t a backyarder even if yourshop is literally in your back yard. Three boards a week or 30, legit is legit.
In my dealings with board manufacturers, the one’s who are legit, have permits, pay taxes are the most honest and dependable. Then those who cheat the system usually end up cheating you in someway or another.
My original comment was directed to silly in NZ, not specifically at you. If you have an accountant and a lawn boy how bad can life really be now?
Agree 100%.
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Entity, you are missing the point of this thread - “Do Surfboard Manufacturers Rip Themselves?” Clearly the answer is yes! Are manufacturers making as much as they COULD. Price competition lowers the price standard for everyone. As long as the cheapest is available (all other things being equal) that will be the first to sell. When the lowest price becomes unavailable, the next lowest becomes the standard.
Sadly, all it takes is one short sighted individual to hurt everyone.
Luckly, because of the logistics of transportation, within a margin, one area of manufacturers can raise their prices to the point at which transportation cost equals the difference. Otay can overcharge charge what Entity charges by the shipping cost to Otay’s neighborhood. Otay can charge even more, by convincing the customer that Otay’s boards are better than Entity’s and worth the difference.
What manufacturers like Entity need to see is since he is the lowest priced manufacturer, when he raises his price, everyone else will raise their prices too.
Entity is not only ripping of the other manufacturers, He is ripping off himself.
The point I was trying to make earlier in this thread is that when Entity raises his price, the customer will look elsewhere, and then come back to Entity because Entity is still cheaper than Otay when considering the time and cost of getting the board elsewhere. The customer’s other alternative would be to quit surfing, which I really don’t think will happen.
Entity, you say you are doing well, and good for you, but are you doing as well as you could?
If customers actually knew the difference between hack ( and many that are considered masters by the magazines are in fact…hacks) and a truly master board builder…it still wouldn’t be much of an issue. The masters get their orders, the hype masters get their orders and those in between who are " me too" shapers with little creativity are the one’s harmed by the hacks. Other industries have tried price fixing, but it almost always backfires. Another issue is not that there is competiton with price, but that anyone can get into this business and be considered a shaper once they learn how to cut out a board and turn a rail. There is not official standard. As much as I don’t care for the mass produced hype masters…their product is pretty much standard in quality in price. It’s well distributed and available. Customers know what to expect and where to get it.
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The level playing field was tilted when some started using third world labour to produce their product, so I really dont think its the backyarders that have thrown the industry into disaray. The backyarders have always and will always be here and if we cant compete with them (whether legit or not)or the third world cheap labour then we dont deserve to be in business. Its an ever shrinking world and you have to have an edge to compete I guess.
Nope…the cheap priced backyarder became the Asian import and I would buy any number of Asian imports out today over the average board shaped by the low priced, backyarder. The product is better than most of those backyarders who sold cheap boards for a cheap price.
You can’t compete with third world cheap labor. Period. The saving grace is there is not long term big money in surfboards and most of the Asian companies are figuring that out.