interesting thread.
Mako - bring it!
a 10’0" black gloss and pollish step deck.
i’m not too sure about the easy comment. Easier said than done.
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interesting thread.
Mako - bring it!
a 10'0" black gloss and pollish step deck.
i'm not too sure about the easy comment. Easier said than done.
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I realize a 10' black stepdeck is a little more difficult than a stock shortboard. My point is if a mere beginner like me can produce a board that nobody would know came from a guy working in his back yard imagine what a pro could do. If you put matching logos on these two boards I can assure you nobody could tell the difference between the one made in my back yard and the other one other than the different fin system and lack of cnc machine marks on mine. The one I made actually has fewer bubbles in the glassing. Again I realize there is a big difference between this and a vintage log but someone who is good would have no problem making fake vintage boards. Its not rocket science.
Look at the lightning bolt pictured earlier in this thread and compare it to the one someone did a build thread on this site recently. The one in the build thread is actually nicer than any real lightningbolt I've ever seen. How hard do you think it would be for that guy to build an exact replica of the Bolt pictured if he wanted to do it???
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v456/mako224/bobsboard.jpg[/IMG]
Something else I've seen is so called restorations where they strip the glass off of a vintage board, fix the blank, paint the blank then re-glass it complete with new reproduction logos then its sold as a vintage board for serious money. As far as I'm conserned that board is no more vintage than a new one on the rack somewhere.
first noting how wrong the dirt bag fraud conducted by Channin and Randy was, seems almost karmic that a probably wealthy Doc overpays big time for a counterfeit wall hanger to brag on…few collectors I’ve met seem obsessive on owning old surfboards, talk ad nauseam about the rarity/value of their boards, and actually rarely surf…no doubt their Surfer Journals are kept in purpose built display cases as well, next to their genuine centuries old Tiki carving bought from a descendent of Captain Cook who had personally traded bright shiny beads for it…LOL.
regarding the Oregon Greg Noll collector … having stopped in his surf shop once while passing through, to describe him as Noll-obssesive would be to seriously understate his Noll fever… http://www.vintagegregnollsurf.com/
have to wonder if the immaculate looking black Da Cat (scroll down the site) is indeed one of the fakes in discussion…
I visit a guitar building forum where guys go to great lengths developing techniques to "Relick" guitars to make them look and sound like vintage Fenders worth big bucks. I'd be willing to bet that a good percentage of vintage Telecasters and Broadcasters on eBay are fake. There are a lot more of them in existance today than ever came off of Leo's assembly lines. I'm sure its probably the same way with DaCats. If not now, it will be in the future.
NO. It wasn't one of the fakes from the guy in the Valley. It was a numbered re-issue from the 90's. I know because as I said in my previous post I'm the original owner. Sold in a divorce sale to Frank at Panchos Surf Shop in Pismo Beach and then later sold by Pancho to Mike Jipp. It was a CNC'ed blank shaped on Tony's machine and glassed at his factory. Screen printed lam/logo with Dora and Noll's sig. Chanin did the re-issue boards. Noll never even laid eyes on most of them. I try NOT to post about stuff I read in a magazine or on the internet, so I post less and try to post about something I may know of first hand. Belive me I know the history of that sleek "Black Cat " with the red pinline first hand. so I scrolled those pics. It's in the pic with the boards leaning against the bluff. To Jipps left . Solid black. I think he's posted a better pic previously on his shop site.
EP ----------- A certain dentist once did a Hobie" stamped" Balsa that was hung in the Beach House for awhile. It fooled a famous SB shaper who commented "he may have shaped it when he was shaping for Hobie'. I saw the shaped Balsa blank in the Dentist's garage just the month before. In fact he gave me a couple of the Hobie lams he used which I still have. Looked good enough too fool the Expert. Or; Was the real expert the Dentist?
While attending a vintage surf auction in NJ about 13 years ago there were three Da Cats lined up along side of each other. The naked eye could see a difference among the three. Subtle differences in the outline of the nose and step deck were were apparent. Any one of them could have been a fake.
Noll was present at the event, and truth be told there were only 39 (?) Black Da Cats made before they figured out that wax wouldn’t stay on them. How many Blacks Da Cats do you think are really out there?
Posted the above at the begining of this tread. Sorry.
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Noll was present at the event, and truth be told there were only 39 (?) Black Da Cats made before they figured out that wax wouldn't stay on them. How many Blacks Da Cats do you think are really out there?
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Impossible to know how many white cat boards got pigmented over with black when the boards turned brown with age and when people found out how valuable the black ones were.
True. I’ve seen a number on ebay that were obviously mask jobs on brown, dinged up boards. All the genuine black Cats I’ve seen had a good bit of foam showing along the stringer, and the black pigment was taped off a good two inches or so from center. Yet, I see boards on ebay where they’re all black except the lam area, and the seller claims “all original condition”.
I’ve done some transactions with him. He always seems to have boards listed on ebay and the prices are often ridiculous.
The difference between Mike and the average garage guy, ala mako, is that Mike is good and knows the nuances of the craft. Comparing a black dacat to a lost sanded shortboard is naive IMO. If nothing else, you have to have up front cash to build 14 replica step decks with A+ glass work. Let's get real.
The comment about Renny is also an easy jab. How is he going to remember a board that he built in the 40’s? If it’s a fake, then it’s a lie, hard stuff to disprove if you are confronted with that kind of information on the spot. I think the Dentist might have fallen on hard times for a while. desperate times / desperate measures
EP--- Understood. Not making any jabs at anyone. Just stated the obvious which is; It happened. My personal opinion about the "Da Cat" is that it is actually a very difficult board to re-create or copy because of all the weird little design elements of the shape. All IMO worthless compared to the Yater "spoon" that the design was ripped off from
Easternpacific,
What part of this did you not understand?
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My point is if a mere beginner like me can produce a board that nobody would know came from a guy working in his back yard imagine what a pro could do.
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I'm not claiming to be a great boardbuilder. I'm just a backyarder. But imagine what a pro could do if they wanted to? Not to mention what the possibilities would be for someone with access to a shaping machine. Counterfeiting surfboards would not be difficult at all for someone with skill and a desire to do it. The shaping and glassing would actually be the easiest parts of pulling it off. Tho logos and proper aging of the board would be the challenges.
Also when you mention the nuances of the boards, you are assuming the nieve buyers know all those nuances. The smart counterfeiter wouldn't be taking his boards to a vintage surf auction or try to pawn them off on avid collectors who might smell a rat. His mark is the person who isn't likely to be able to figure out the scam until its too late.
Its like baseball cards. There are so many high quality fake baseball cards out there now. Where there is money to be made there will be counterfeiting. Where there is a will there is a way.
Probably the biggest difficulty I see would be properly weathering the counterfiet board so it doesn't look too good. Perhaps 6 months in the sun and a few strategically placed dings and shatters and a soaking in sea water to get a little yellowing going.
That’s quite a leap of faith mako.
The part I don’t understand is the statement “nobody would know” if you did it. Maybe your pin air would be a give a way
I'm paraphrasing, but there's the old saying; 'You can't fool all of the people all of the time, but you can fool some of the people some of the time.' If that isn't the way it goes, that's the way it should go.
The Yater Spoon preceded the Cat to my knowledge. At least that’s how I remember it. Reduced swing weight was the motiviation versus the widely believed idea that the nose would flex straight and provide better noseriding.
The step and reduced volume did create lift while swinging easily thru left go right turns. You could order them in light, medium, or heavy steps. Guys wanting lighter boards ordered them with small single stringers versus the popular Yater wedge.
Sue Fredericks could tell us who ordered what and what was most popular; she worked the lower State Street Shop when the model hit its stride.
I was told that Sally (Yater) was concerned that Renny considered doing a partnership of sorts with Dora regarding the design. Fortunaely that didn’t happen and Dora moved on to his next mark; Noll. The model that appeared in the “Surfer Mag” ad was changed from the spoon by angling the step deck, the fin outline, and some other nuances. No doubt the rocker was different, at least from what some people are stating here, because Renny’s rocker worked quite well at Rincon and lined up point breaks.
The Spoon rocker then, had a straighter trim section, very flat rail to rail, no last minute flip tip forward section that demanded responsible noseriding over the idot proofed deep closed teardrop concaves of Nuuhiwa’s Noserider and some other similar boards that felt ‘mushy’ and were notoriously slow when up front. Yes, that worked for clocking more time on the tip, but it also made for one snooze of a noseride versus designs like The Spoon, The Stretch, John Peck’s Penetrator, and The Blue Machine.
Surfing history is rich with characters. Yes, Dora was a crook, but he was also a very agile small wave surfer in a golden era.
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Eastern Pacific,
What part of this did you not understand?
[quote]
My point is if a mere beginner like me can produce a board that nobody would know came from a guy working in his back yard imagine what a pro could do.
[/quote]
I'm not claiming to be a great board builder. I'm just a backyarder. But imagine what a pro could do if they wanted to? Not to mention what the possibilities would be for someone Probably the biggest difficulty I see would be properly weathering the counterfeit board so it doesn't look too good. Perhaps 6 months in the sun and a few strategically placed dings and shatters and a soaking in sea water to get a little yellowing going.
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stain sections of the blank with tea. a light brownish yellow tint in the glass and resin. now ad a couple of minor dings rub some sand into the glass and there you have it a fake classic board. If I were not cursed with something called ethics I would have a factory in China working on Cats, Spoons, Peck Penetrator; Trestles Specials and just for fun some Old Balsa Boards maybe a Simms and a Blake or two.
Come to think of it there is more money in faking a Painting. One fake Chagall or Pizarro would bring in more then 1000 fake Boards.
All of the above. That's so true. Bigler surfed a Spoon and then went straight to Harbour. Hynson surfed Yaters for a time,not sure if that was when he was at Hobie or later. So almost all of the noseriders you mentioned above (other than the teardrops) were in some way or another influenced in design by Yater's decreased swing weight attempt with the Spoon. Thanks for the clarification Bruce.