Dynamics – Water Particle Motion, And The Forces Developed By Moving Liquids

The major point of this thread is to illustrate the nature of the elliptical paths that water particles follow when a waveform passes. Once understood, then how these moving water particles develop forces can be better appreciated.

The illustrations are highly simplified and if they could be applied to a real wave they might approximate a deep-water wave. The paths of these particles distort dramatically as a wave shoals –i.e. moves into shallower water. As a wave shoals it increases in height, and height is one of the determining factors in the actual path of the water particle. Nevertheless, the ‘picture’ is the same, albeit distorted.

In the illustrations, see figure 1 and 2, the wave is propagating in the direction indicated and a given water particle, indicated by the red dot, is followed in the sequence. Figure 2 is just a more detailed version of the leading portion of the waveform –i.e. the face.

It is understandable that most, when watching waves do not visualize the velocity vectors of water particles. I suspect most see the waveform as a ‘whole’ –i.e. the complete form, and therefore do not see any flow* at all. And if considering the whole form, they would be correct, for the net flow is small in deep water, and though it increases as the wave shoals, and it is not until the wave breaks that you can see any substantial net flow. The key term here is net. Luckily surfers aren’t interested in the net flow, just the flow on the face of the wave.

But water particles with velocity, amount to particles with momentum –i.e. momentum is mass times velocity, and objects that posses momentum can and will apply a force to objects they come in contact with.

Here an interesting exercise regarding something called stagnation pressure. In figure 3a a jet of water (density = 1000 kg/cubic-meter) is impacting on a plate. The velocity of the water is V. The impact of the water on the plate destroys the momentum it had prior to impact. Though a full development of the solution is too involved for purposes here, the force required to destroy the jets momentum is given by, (density)(area of jet)(velocity)(velocity) as indicated in the illustration (see any introductory text in Fluid Dynamics). The average pressure that the plate experiences, is given by (density)(area of jet)(velocity)(velocity)/(area of plate).

This is not exactly what’s happening under a surfboard, the stagnation pressure is sort of an extreme treatment, a useful estimate when dealing the possible requirements of a barrier. In the above illustration the barrier was completely at right angles to the jet. If the barrier was a an angle, then the momentum of the jet would not have been completely destroyed and the final solution would have to take into account the final momentum of the liquid, see figure 3b. All things being equal, the component of the force that would have to be applied parallel to the jet’s initial direction would be less in this case, but you’d now have to apply a component of the force in the upward direction (in the diagram.) In figure 3b, an important point to note is that because the plate is stiff it experiences a force that is normal to its plane of presentation to the jet. So you can control the force that the plate experiences by changing its plane of presentation to the jet.

So, The Wave Is A Jet?

Yes, at least for the moment. It reality is far more complicated (at least mathematically, but perhaps not intuitively), but such a simplistic illustration will hopefully serve to make the nature of propulsion in surfing clear. In figure 4a (see next post) a very small piece of the wave is considered. As you can see, in the very small time interval delta t the wave has moved –i.e. the water has moved, and this is the ‘jet’ if you like, see figure 4b. In figure 4c we put a little bit of the surfboard bottom in front of the jet. The force that this little bit of surfboard exerts on the jet is in red, and the reaction force, the force the little bit of surfboard experiences is in green.

In figure 4c the little bit of bottom is presented perpendicular to the moving water, but again it need not be the case, see Dynamics – The Trim Equation.

Wow, The Wave Is A Jet

No, the above model of a little jet hitting the bottom of surfboard is not the best model, in fact it leaves a whole lot out. For one thing the water that impacts the bottom has to then go somewhere, worse the board moves as a result of the impact, virtually moving across the surface of the ‘jet’. Mathematically modeling this interaction in three dimensions is not an easy task. Luckily, it’s only necessary to appreciate the forces involved and how they are developed and manipulated through bottom presentation, (and of course the presentation of bottom contours.)

Nevertheless, there is the matter of how the flow once it impacts the plate will divide itself. Again, the principles which govern this can be found in an introductory text on Fluid Dynamics, but you probably can sense that how a flow might partition itself given the illustrations in figures 3b, 3c and 3d.

In figure 3c, the treatment is two-dimensional. In the concave illustration, because the water is literally sent off in the opposite direction you will have to provide a greater force parallel to the direction of the jet’s initial flow, hence experiencing a greater reaction force. In the case of a convex or vee (or belly?), all things being the same you will in general have to provide less of a force, hence experiencing less of reaction force, and in this case less of a lift than with a concave. (See, Dynamics – The New Spoon Experiment.)

In figure 3d, I’ve attempted to illustrate what might be happening in three-dimensions. In fact this is really a dangerous drawing for the I put a bit of concave in the rear of this board. (I wouldn’t design a board like this. It’s for illustration purposes.) Here if somehow the board was presenting itself to the flow in the wave as illustrated, because of the concave and rocker the direction of the flow off the board would be beneficial to forward motion, and you’d get a little lift too. Does this actually occur? I suspect to some degree, it depends on a lot, in particular for what conditions the board is being designed for and then on how its being used. In general different solutions exist for different conditions. However, quite often shapers will throw a little vee right at the end of the board, especially on longboards. The vee is nice for turning, but my guess is that’s also a plus for propulsion. A great exercise is to take a peak at the bonzer on Eaton’s page, http://www.eatonsurf.com/Bonzer.htm . Though I tend not to agree with his explanation, I’m inclined to believe under the right conditions the board ‘goes fast.’

The point which I keep coming back to however, is that designing for propulsion is one thing, designing for the motion produced from propulsion is another. Too much concave and you tend to just add ‘fin’ or the rudder function of a fin, same for convex shapes. When and how these cross design considerations will impact the functioning of the design will depend on a lot of different things. For example, in slower or small conditions the popular solution is a fish strategy. I believe the fish strategy tends to be more desirable for it addresses both propulsion and lift through an increase in surface area given the reduced water particle velocity. Of course there is a slew or compromises that can be made.

But in general tampering with the ‘apparent’ or relative flow that is produced will cost you. Perhaps you might think of it this way. You’re in a motorboat zooming along. You look over the side and see all this water rushing by. You get the bright idea that if you put a propeller into the rushing water, you could use it to turn a generator, generating some electricity as a result. You figure you could then use the electricity generated to propel the boat! Try it, if it works the world will surely beat a path to your door. When it comes to contours or other design elements that address the relative motion, the question is whether or not the cost is worth it.

Disclaimer

Nothing has been proved. Nothing has been disproved.

Some Notes For Modelers

The motion of the surfboard is virtually perpendicular to what I have referred to as the propulsive flow.

Kevin


*, Here flow is the movement of a volume per unit time, but since we are dealing with water, which is a virtually incompressible liquid for the conditions with which we are interested, a flow virtually amounts to mass per unit time. Incompressible means that there is no change in volume with pressure. A gas is compressible. Liquids generally are not, or at treated as if there weren’t.



Prior post continued…

clap clap clap a really good post, i throughly enjoyed it and will enjoy watching people’s reactions. as for getting the board flowperpendicular to the jet the fins and angling(the turning of the board by rider) are the reasons behind that.

They’re called journeymen for a good reason.

Experience is knowledge, sometimes the best kind, and in building boards usually the best kind.

Kevin

Can you detail your own board shaping and surfing experience here and how you feel it has impacted your knowledge of “dynamics”?

I still also like to hear a single paragraph from you disputing the idea that surfing is basically a surfboard being lifted above sea level by the wave and gravity causing the board to slide back down the wave. If you agree with that, and any sane person must, please post what percentage of speed, momentum, whatever you feel comes from simply gravity and what percentage comes from all this other stuff you keep posting about.

Thanks

Quote:

Can you detail your own board shaping and surfing experience here and how you feel it has impacted your knowledge of “dynamics”?

I still also like to hear a single paragraph from you disputing the idea that surfing is basically a surfboard being lifted above sea level by the wave and gravity causing the board to slide back down the wave. If you agree with that, and any sane person must, please post what percentage of speed, momentum, whatever you feel comes from simply gravity and what percentage comes from all this other stuff you keep posting about.

Thanks

CLAP CLAP CLAP – also please do not cut and paste your own posts from other threads where your pseudo-science was discredited – very bad form --sad, actually.

just the fact that you and slim are here

indicates to me that in some way you are either

  1. interested

  2. get some sick perverted satisfaction in discrediting others in there artistic and creative pursuits

  3. dont believe in fairies( you know if you stop believing in them they dissapear)

thanks

no really

thanks

no actually could you please explain to why im right all the time

and your not

thanks

who are you

thanks

btw

please explain further

thanks

Kevin,

You are still making the false assumption that the surfboard is able to provide an opposing force in the horizontal plane. . . your figures 3a etc assume a constantly opposing force in the horizontal plane which does not exist.

What you have been doing is using the downwards force of gravity and its effects as evidence of ‘pressure’ in the horizontal plane . . . . this is equivalant to a card trick, and it simply doesn’t work.

Surely you must be able to see that your theory is based on several fallacies? These fallacies have been described to you many times by some patient and long suffering swaylock’s members, and you have made no attempt to correct your theory or answer any of the serious objections which have been raised… . . instead you just post exactly the same stuff with no improvements other than more grandiose thread titles.

A while back you interrupted one of your long posts to say “Cameras Click” . . . . it was a complete non sequiteur, but perhaps it gives us a clue regarding your motives.

:frowning:

Quote:

just the fact that you and slim are here

indicates to me that in some way you get some sick perverted satisfaction in discrediting others in there artistic and creative pursuits

Quote:

You can’t change the laws of physics JIM ! . . . . . Even in the name of art . … . . . . Physics is physics mate. . . and Kevin’s theory is incorrect… . . . . . . … . . it’s not an art issue. :frowning: Good Lord ! I just saw the “jet impacting bottom” diagram again, it’s BUNKUM!!! .

Quote:

Here an interesting exercise regarding something called stagnation pressure. In figure 3a a jet of water (density = 1000 kg/cubic-meter) is impacting on a plate. The velocity of the water is V. The impact of the water on the plate destroys the momentum it had prior to impact. Though a full development of the solution is too involved for purposes here, the force required to destroy the jets momentum is given by, (density)(area of jet)(velocity)(velocity) as indicated in the illustration (see any introductory text in Fluid Dynamics). The average pressure that the plate experiences, is given by (density)(area of jet)(velocity)(velocity)/(area of plate).

Quote:

Apart from the major problem previously mentioned regarding the horizontal force opposing the water jet and the lack of it in a surfing situation (in other words NO ONE IS HOLDING THE BARRIER !). . . … . . . . . there is the same old rotten chestnut of a supposed water pressure formula popping up again. . . . in case you didn’t get it yet. . . DENSITY does not imply pressure. . . . you need MASS !! your formula does not have a value for mass thus there can be no pressure. . . . :frowning:

Quote:

This is not exactly what’s happening under a surfboard

Quote:

no kidding, I never would have guessed.

honest.

Quote:

You can’t change the laws of physics JIM ! . . . . . Even in the name of art . … . . . . Physics is physics mate. . . and Kevin’s theory is incorrect… . . . . . . … . . it’s not an art issue. :frowning: Good Lord ! I just saw the “jet impacting bottom” diagram again, it’s BUNKUM!!! .

wrong

the evolution of man and developement of culture and societies

has been through creative thought and radical freethinking individuals lack of acceptence in

the staus quo

whether it be science, language or art

alchemists thought they could change lead into gold

roy stewart said they cant because its goes against the laws of physics

so they all say "thanks roy and slim,

you were right.

well stop wasting our time with trying to turn lead into gold"

modern metalurgy ceases to exist .

ideas and creative thought process, lead to more ideas and more creative thinking.

which in turn can lead to fundemental changes in humans understanding of the the universe

all of a sudden the imposible becomes possible

It is fascist thinking that attempts to discredit creative thought processes by using

widely accepted concepts on what is “fact”

oxymorons prevail in the modern world

and fact and fiction is blurred

the universes is filled with paradoxes

and things exist beyond human comprehension.

this is a witch hunt

Gimme a break Paul

The guy is supposedly representing what is happening PHYSICALLY but he’s admittedly doing it metaphysically (outside of provable reality),

These are not articles of religious faith, although he is careful to qualify that he doesn’t have ANY proof now.

Whaddaya think of that, Kevin? Your erstwhile and earnest afficionado is now defending you on the grounds of religious freedom!!! Stop taking advantage of his good faith.

If you can’t prove it and nobody observes it, Occam’s Razor applies: “What is done with fewer explanations is done in vain with more.” The “fewer” in this case being observable phenomena–the wave’s forward motion, and gravity.

Like Roy said, you’re deleting gravity from your equations so your flow will have force it doesn’t have.

EDIT:

FYI: Gravity presses the board down onto the water surface.

In Fig. 3c and, especially tellingly, Fig. 3d, you have a water “jet” force represented without reinforcing data and GRAVITY- or even inertia- not represented!

Paul, Kevin, if you want, present these diagrams and your theory of gravity’s minimal influence on surfing to a handy physics professor and/or math professor and explain what you allege that they illustrate!

Now if you want to make it into a poem, or a spell, I’ll read it. I actually like a good myth. I live by a belief system. But this ain’t that.

(Kevin, I note you are now trying to sneak some reality “apparent flow,” “relative flow” into your metaphysics)

Quote:
Quote:

just the fact that you and slim are here

indicates to me that in some way you get some sick perverted satisfaction in discrediting others in there artistic and creative pursuits

Quote:

You can’t change the laws of physics JIM ! . . . . . Even in the name of art . … . . . . Physics is physics mate. . . and Kevin’s theory is incorrect… . . . . . . … . . it’s not an art issue. :frowning: Good Lord ! I just saw the “jet impacting bottom” diagram again, it’s BUNKUM!!! .

Classic! Bunkum!! Whoa I haven’t heard that word in a while!!

w00t !! G’dunggg… basket hoop noise on a slamdunk

Roy, awesome! You know you are right on this one!! The Jet Impacting Bottom… sheesh… sounds like cheap porn!

Seriously, though, the gravity is indeed the factor and there is no horizontal element. now… if you were George Greenough and had mounted a sail, this would be a different story… but your not and you didn’t so it isn’t…

sorry guys it’s friday afternoon here and I need to get out of here and into the pub…

later friends!!

exactly what are you offering here that hasn’t already been presented eloquently 30 years ago in these documents

before most of the groms here were even born in this dissertation.

Reminds me I kind of forgot about my little sways board building reference guide…

need to finish that soon

circa 1974

HYDRODYNAMICS OF SURFBOARDS
FINAL YEAR THESIS BY MICHAEL PAINE

BACHELOR OF ENGINEERING (MECHANICAL) UNIVERSITY OF SYDNEY 1974

http://users.tpg.com.au/users/mpaine/thesis.html

circa 1977 - Surfboard Design and Construction

http://jfmillbiz.home.comcast.net/swaylocks/Surfboard_Design_and_Construction_1977.pdf

circa 1998 - Erin Grimley’s “The Physics of Surfing”

http://www.blackmagic.com/surf/papers/physicsgrm.html

we even got into it a bit here a couple of years ago

The dynamics of fins…

http://www.swaylocks.com/forum/gforum.cgi?post=159277#159277

http://www.swaylocks.com/forum/gforum.cgi?post=159628

Those times here are long gone I guess…

Again I don’t see anything new here that someone hasn’t already tried to break down using science more than 30 years ago

funny thing…

other than the contributions of the raw imaginations of youthful exhuberance

surfing’s pretty much remained the same

Excellent, that is the PhD thesis which I referred to in the Dynamics - The Trim Equation. You should read it, and anyone else who cares too.

Once again, thanks for the reference. It simply was not popping up on my searches.

Kevin

What I haven’t seen much of is discussion of the relative contribution to surfboard lift and drag of displacement and “planing forces”…

Planing forces, such as the reactive jet forces in the analogy, re-direct water downward. They impact more of a momentum change on the water, and therefore cause more drag.

Displacement forces do not re-direct water, and so they cause less drag.

This is why a rounded hull glides better than a concave board.

The concave is preferred because the board sits higher in the water, and thus re-directs better. It turns more easily at the expense of coasting less easily.

A flat thin tail is always the fastest tail design.

http://users.tpg.com.au/users/mpaine/thesis.html

That’s a standing (flow) wave, Kevin! Try again! Totally wrong reference for your pseudo-science claptrap. Cuckoo.

http://www.blackmagic.com/surf/papers/physicsgrm.html

“A surfer accomplishes this by facing his body in the same direction as the waves’ motion. He then uses his arms to paddle until his momentum is equal to the waves. At the instance that this occurs, the surfer suddenly feels the board being carried along by the wave.”

A surfer paddling for a wave is not (not typically) paddling his board at 8 or 10 knots and then suddenly he’s planing because he “matched his paddling speed to the wave’s speed.”

He adds his forward momentum into the energy the wave exerts on him and his board, pushing him forward to planing speed. Or rather, he subtracts his momentum energy from the energy required for the wave and gravity to push/pull him accelrating up to planing speed.

The act of wave-catching is so dependent on position, buoyancy, planing area, the wave’s face and speed, and gravity that it is possible to not paddle at all and catch the wave. It’s also totally possible to paddle your ass off, not make any progress and still catch the wave. And vice-versa, paddle well, and not catch it. I’ve often thought that what the surfer paddling his ass off has usually done is paddled about 10 feet to a point about 5 feet shy of the point where the wave would have caught him with 2 strokes, or none.

This example shows how relative appearances are when you’re very busy

trying to catch and ride waves successfully. Or how maybe that guy was

completely overestimating his paddling prowess.

Please consider this as a continuation of my prior response…

As for the rest of the references, they are all very interesting, and I appreciate your making them available.

It is my impression that Paine failed to make the distinction between the flow which propels the surfboard and the motion it produces. I was never quite sure if Paine understood this. The route he took seemed to be straight forward application of Savitsky’s hypothesis; his tau angles remained low. (Please read his thesis and correct me if I am wrong. I have been wrong before.)

What I have proposed is a treatment in which Savitsky’s tau angles are hovering around 90 degrees, at least potentially so, but more to the point, for me the forces Savitsky describes are what makes the surfboard go, please see this and prior posts. Once again, that flow that makes a surfboard go, is different from the relative motion (flow) which the surfer experiences. The flow that causes the planing is actually close to perpendicular to the motion the surfer experiences. I don’t believe Paine saw it this way. Nevertheless, I think Paine’s work is very interesting, important and I am grateful to him (as I mentioned in a prior thread), in particular his work introduced me to Savitsky. (And a whole lot of other nautical engineers as a result.)

As with regards to the other references, I don’t seem to be able to follow Erin Grimley’s arguments; I fail to see the importance of the role of buoyancy in surfing. I don’t believe the hydrostatic term is very important, it surely isn’t what makes things happen during surfing. Buoyant force is a matter of the volume of fluid displaced, and I don’t believe Grimley’s correctly applies the principle. For static considerations geometry matters, but only in as much as it impacts displacement –e.g. you can mold a small sheet of aluminum into a boat, the sheet sinks, the boat floats, both will surf. Then again, I did read it fast, so I will reread it again and get back to you if I believe I’ve been too quick in my interpretation of what Grimley argued.

The jfMillbiz.home.Comcast.net reference is very interesting. It would be nice to have an author to associate with it, if you have that information I would appreciate it if you would share it. The author seems to get the fact that the something perpendicular to the bottom of the board is going on and is important. I will reread it again it’s a very nice reference.

As for the fin posts, I’ve read them, but at the moment you have to forgive me, I’m not exactly clear with respect to their relevance. I will get back to you though.

As for what I have written that is different; first, the mechanism of propulsion is laid out, - the flow in the wave impacting on the bottom of the board provides the force necessary to make a surfboard go - and the design elements fall out from its description, see the above initial post, and prior posts; second, that the motion propulsion produces is a separate design matter, and the design elements which may be beneficial with respect to this motion are different and deserve discussion (I haven’t addressed them in any detail, as I stated in a past thread, I wanted to address propulsion for it seemed to me to be a critical first step); third, to design for the motion that is produced by the interaction of the board with the flow in a wave may cost you with respect to propulsion, and visa versa, again see initial post and prior threads. This impacts design in a straightforward way, design for the propulsion, or design for the motion it produces, or both, but understand that they are quite separate and what works for one may not work or may interfere with the other.

Now that I have answered your questions, please, I have a few. Do you agree with these authors? Which one of these references do believe sums matters up the best? Or perhaps you have your own take that draws from all of them, or none? Actually, I would be interested to know which one of these authors you believe my writings have followed most closely? I assume you feel as much given your comment suggesting that what I has been writing was stated more eloquently in the past by these individuals. Please don’t hesitate to consider each reference individually pointing out where you feel this has been the case.

I look forward to reading your reply.

And once again, thanks, those were interesting references.

Kevin

You’re treating the WAVE, Kevin, but you call it a flow.

The individual molecules on the surface of a rope, or a sheet, or a shirt, or a sheet of steel all describe the same circular motion when you induce a progessive wave through them.

See your Fig 4whatever? Notice that the arrows represent water particles in (note that word–they are part of…) the surface of a wave, that is, they are the wave, the arrows point in the direction of the wave’s motion, that the wave’s overall momentum and force and the patterns of their momentum are in common, aligned, one thing, altogether now, sing…

What makes a surfboard go was never in question, and it still ain’t

And you need some more red (G) arrows up there in your 3 Figs

Prolific, you are. Focused too. Adderall?

I am not sure what you are referring to with regards to lift and drag of displacement and ‘planing forces’. Is this in regard to what I have been asserting regarding the propulsive flow, or once the board is in motion as a result? It would help me to know if you agree that the propulsion comes from the flow impacting the bottom of the board, in general at very high angles as I have described in this and prior threads. In particular, that this flow is different than the flow observed by the surfer -i.e. that is from the motion the propulsive interaction produces?

I think I may agree that redirecting flow has consequences in as much that it interferes with the propulsive flow –i.e. reducing the momentum of fresh flow. However, the interesting thing is that the propulsive flow is virtually perpendicular to the motion it produces, hence the surfboard is constantly moving into regions of fresh flow, so the impact of this sapping, actually detrimental exchange of flow momentum is reduced.

I am not sure what you are referring to with respect to gliding, nor how a concave board sits higher in the water. If you’re referring to how boards paddle I would suggest that the geometry presented to the flow is quite different when surfing and how a board paddles shouldn’t be taken as evidence of much, other than how it paddles. But perhaps you can clarify your point for me; I suspect I’ve misunderstood.

Thanks,

Kevin