Bill,The china bagging and clark foam comment was not directed at you , but at the complete forum.
If we as a whole want to see this craft grow or carry on we have to foster the youth and share our skills, there is only so much people can learn on a design forum .
Thanks for your view and happy new year.
Once again, Bill, you prove the proverb that true leaders lead by example.
Glad to see that there is still no grass growing under your feet.
Even when struck ill you bounce back like there is no tomorrow. And that is, I think, the real message here. Don’t get caught flat footed or asleep at the wheel. Do something. You have options.
A Princeton trained plastics chemist once told me there are three kinds of people.
Those who make it happen.
Those who watch it happen
Those who say …what happened?
Everyone just got promoted to #1. I suppose a lot will wash out, because they just don’t have it.
Aloha TurboJets
Thanks for the great response. I share much of your optimism but for different reasons. These changes I have mentioned are huge opportunities for those who see them coming and get on board early. I am not optimistic about our existing business model that has been familiar to us for the last 20-30 years or so. Please don’t take my comments personal, you have just given me opportunity to dialogue on these issues and challenge their validity. It isn’t about us, (you or me) it is about the possibilities and which way the wind will blow, and what outcomes we will see. It is important to dig deep into the histories and examples gone by and to speculate on the unthinkable.
I should probably clarify something here. The surf industry covers the whole gamut from materials to customers, from surfboards and accessories to clothing, contests, travel, surf-camps, videos, magazines and waves and beaches. But for the most part here, when I refer to the “industry” I am mostly just talking about the manufacturing of surfboards since that is the purpose of this forum. Still you can’t divorce those other parts of the industry from the surfboards. As I have always said, “there are only 3 things that make surfing what it is.”
Waves
Surfers
Surfboards
They are all pretty much equal in importance even though the surf media doesn’t ever portray them that way. Everything else is unnecessary fluff that makes surfing sometimes better and often worse. Surfboard makers have always gotten the short end of the media stick. If you count brand logos showing up in photos then surfboard mfgs. get pretty good exposure if they have the right riders. But if you count on the media to go much deeper then that in exposing board builders, you will be sorely dissappointed.
Although you guys do make some very valid points. From the perspective that I have, and I might be over optimistic, the state of surfing will be alot different. First off, a supierior product will always have a market.I agree totally. Problem is that “superior” product is not going to be made in the USA nor is it eventually going to be sold as an American product. Tell me of a product that is? I can tell you many that aren’t… Canon, Nikon, automobiles, bicycles, motorcycles, audio equip, video equip, the list is endless. What “superior” product is made in the USA anymore? None in volume. A few in small niche markets.
It’s hard to have a superior product when everyone is using the same materials.
Agreed but the Chinese will have access to the same materials and will have the work force skills to make it into cool stuff cheaper then the USA can. At least until their economies catch up to ours like Japan and Taiwan have.
You do realize I hope that much of these exotic new materials are already being manufactured in China, right? Like most carbon fiber is produced there already it isn’t a US product.
Carbon Nanotubes will be easier and cheaper to make there too. These materials are only a blink of an eye. I already have been selling bicycle parts made out of them for a couple of years… and guess where they are made??
New materials and construction techniques will never save the US surf industry. Why do all the styrofoam/Epoxy guys think so? Are they under some delusion that these materials are “advanced”… Please they have been around for decades! They aren’t capable of saving the US surfboard manufacturing business. And even if the public latches on to Styropoxy as a better product, Asian manufacturers will be able to make them better, cheaper, faster and in higher volumes they anyone in the US can.
I know this is an attractive dream but it simply isn’t how the world works. Innovation like Apple Computer is known for, costs billions and staying ahead of Asian competitors that learn from you and then knock you off, is super expensive. No US surfboard companies are going to be able to sustain their market position against Asian competitors like Apple has been able to do via innovation and branding. Surfboards are too easy to genericize and are desired by a very young, naive consumer base that most just wants a “Cool” product…which in this case is a surfboard
Like you said it’s only maybe 10 percent of the market that know the subtle differences in products. However, I don’t think the “surfer” image is dying. The growth of both the sporting good and fashion industries surrounding surfing says otherwise.
I fully agree. I didn’t say the “dying” was happening now. Surfing is hotter then ever. I was referring to a time further down the line when surfboards will have names like Giant, Toyota, Yamaha etc. Once the hard goods that are known for excellent quality and performance and cool factor no longer have American Names on them or even if they do they are owned by Asian companies, the “cool” factor surrounding the peripheral products like leashes, shoes, clothes, hats, board bags etc will lose much of their fashionable attraction. And eventually it will erode the actual activity of surfing itself. Just consider how important the USA made Harley Davidson motorcycle is to the image and cool factor of riding motorcycles. Would it be the same if there were only Hondas? Would Sturgis be the same if it were all Japanese motorcycles?
If the Asian companies are smart they will set up or partner with American companies to market the products such that Americans will still think they are very cool regardless of where they are made or who really owns them, kinda like Apple has done with the iPod or Addidas, or Nike etc. But … is the typical surfboard mfg. in the USA today, up to that kind of broad creative thinking and marketing?
I think the USA will become the epicenter of a new phase in R and D that hasn’t existed before. Manufacturing technologies will also increase, and more then likely will be used in markets struggling for an edge like the USA and Australia, before eventually going to China.
The kind of R & D you mention will be only a tiny flicker in time and not substantial enough to sustain any kind of USA mfg. industry. These ideas, materials and techniques will port to Asia faster then new ones can be created. Surfboards just aren’t that complicated. Don’t over exaggerate the brain power needed to make a decent board for 99% of the population. It isn’t rocket science.
Additionally, Asians are not fools though they clearly lack a bit in marketing skills they are fully capable of creating new products out of new materials just as fast and good as any US companies can. They many not have their finger on the pulse of fashion and trends in the USA but that is a simple matter of opening an office in the USA and staffing it with people just out of Pasadena Art Center and FIDM!
I worked for a Taiwanese company that made bike parts. Fairly good ones, very cheap. But they didn’t understand how to market them. I struggled with them for about a year but couldn’t get them to understand the changes needed. The timing just wasn’t right in their evolution. Now 15 years later they “got it”. They even changed their name from Lee Chi, to ProMax and opened a US office staffed with Americans.
Do not underestimate this. Surfboards are extremely simple to make. Way easier then bike parts! They are mostly labor intensive, not technically intensive. Western Surfboard Makers like to think that we are superior to the rest of the world in how great we can build boards and that Asians won’t be able to compete with our brilliant designs and new constuction techniques that we will continue to poor forth. HA! Not true! Surfboards are only made out of 4 primary parts. Foam, Fiberglass, Resin and a fin system and none of them are beyond the skills of 15 year old backyard builders in the USA. You really think that skilled Chinese workers can’t build ultra cheap, high quality boards on a par with US manufacturers, regardless of what R&D or materials the US guys come up with?
Just look at a bicycle wheel made in Taiwan. Rim extruded bent, drilled and pinned together. Nipples, machined with 4 flats, threaded inside and chrome plated. Spokes, pulled to size, threaded, bent and flared. Hub shell machined, drilled with 32 holes, bearing races pressed in. Bearings, 18 carbon steel balls. Axle, drilled hollow, threaded hardened steel, nuts washers, cones. Over 100 individual fully machined and created parts all made out of materials that don’t even exist in Taiwan and have to be shipped in from elsewhere. The wholesale price for this average cheap wheel is $15 to $20 bucks landed in Hawaii shipped from Taiwan to the mainland and back to me! $20 bucks for over 100 machined parts of aluminum, stainless steel, Brass, Carbon steel etc. and then fully assembled into a complete wheel.
Think hard about this. Surfboards are only 4 parts. A wheel is over 100! How much do you really think this wheel costs when made in China?? Complete bikes made of hundreds of parts and materials are about $18.00 on the cheap end! Their factories produce 2,000 per day!!
What do you think a surfboard can be made for, especially if molded? $15 maybe $25…maybe less! We haven’t even begun to see the impacts of this on our industry yet. A similar factory to a bicycle factory could produce 3/4 of a million boards a year. Probably more then the production now of the whole world. If several of these factories were up and running, how cheap would boards get in an effort to secure enough distribution to sell out all their production capacity?
In 1975 I went to Japan and trained the Lightning Bolt licensee how to make good boards. In 6 weeks I had them making as good as boards as any in the world and that was with marginal materials and facilities.
Most bicycles now made are designed by the Asian factories and relabeled under different US Brands. The US guys don’t design the bikes they only choose among the available designs and their big contribution to design is the color scheme and logos! They are marketing companies, not bike companies. As will soon be the US surfboard companies.
True there are still niche bike brands that are designed and built in the USA, like Intense, but they are few and far between. As a consequence Mountain Biking that was on fire in the 90s is mostly just glowing embers now. There are a few hot pockets but for the most part it is over. There are half as many bike shops in the USA now as there was, and we lost almost 1000 in the last year and a half alone. When an activities hard goods are no longer deemed to be super cool and the space available to do the activity shrinks or gets too crowded it has a profound effect on the industry.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with using worldly knowledge to make a more favorable business decision, such as manufacturing over seas. I jsut wish instead of China more manufacturing was done in places where there is actually a surf scene. America is hands down the place to start a business. It is very easy to stay on top of latest technology and continue to R and D. Try to start a company in china with a product that actually has to EVOLVE… Manufacturing is only one facet of a business, for everything else involved it’s hard to beat the good ole US of A.
I totally disagree here! America is getting to be a terrible place to start any business except maybe the design, marketing and sales ends of the business. Would you open a Glassing Shop in the USA or a Shaping Service? Just because you are going to sell a bunch of the boards in the USA doesn’t mean it is a good idea to base the business in the USA. It is extremely cheap and easy to start businesses in China. And that allows one to think big, very big, which is so necessary to the development of a successful business.
I have a friend that recently wanted to sell some more motorcycle products in the USA, that would take advantage of the 50cc dirt bike craze. He was looking in China for the parts to be made and it was all so cheap and easy he decided to make a whole motorcycle! So he built a factory and a house (the house was a palace for only 20k. The first year he expected to sell 1,200 motorcycles…but they sold 1,200 the first month and it hasn’t stopped yet. So he bought land and is building a 15 acre industrial park. He keeps bugging me to take a buildling and do my boards there. I can’t even begin to tell you how cheap it is. I don’t know if I can resist. But I have semi retired from this whacky industry and don’t know if I want to be diving in that deep again.
Walker is setting up a factory in China…do you think he is doing that even though America is a “better” place to do it. My friends motorcycle has several original patents on it, because R & D is so cheap and easy. Don’t kid yourself these are not the backwater hell holes that they were 20 years ago. These guys are an awesome force, many educated in the USA at the very best schools. And they haven’t even begun to take a serious interest in the surfboard industry yet.
Labor here is more expensive then anywhere else in the world, and many youths may not appreciate hard work, but maybe more are more keen to what their labor is worth. Many will go on to more skilled positions that requires more education. There are still great oppurtunities for skilled craftsman, in fact, many of the craftsman I know are bookedd solid for a year and are making very decent money. These “service” industries will not go away, they have a HUGE market in America, they are essential to our everyday lives. Good craftsmanship may not be on the decline for much longer as I see it as only a trend. People will start to relaize the value of quality craftsmanship, especially as it becomes harder to find, and prices for good craftsman will increase, and then so will the value of their trade. Parents who once forced their kids into college may realize their kids are dumbasses anyway and tell them to pick up a hammer. I have worked through out my teens doing everything from carpeting, painting, roofing, renovations, tilling, ect. The last guy I worked for only 23 yet was making a good living, and that is on Long Island, where the taxes and cost of living are very high. I know a guy who does custom hardwood flooring and is a millionare several times over.
I understand your examples here but you are comparing apples to oranges. The construction trade cannot be exported offshore. Nor is housing a descretionary expenditure. And among the consumers for housing there is a vast spread between what they are willing to pay. Many will overspend to get the special construction they desire or find social acceptence in owning. Housing only competes with food for consumer dollars, and is not driven by every fashion and whim of youth.
Surfboards are toys primarily purchased by 12 - 25 year olds. They are not necessary and they compete with thousands of different items all designed to be super attractive to youths and are required to be cool. The bulk of these consumers don’t know and never will know, real quality or performance and those won’t be necessary considerations in their purchase. The few that do will never be enough to support a US industry.
The keys to starting and sustaining a surf business in the USA will change, however the industry will not implode. The way I see it, it is essential to make a cost competitive product that is hand down better and has the big names and credibility to survive. Look at Surftech, their market share is tremendous and they are still a young company.
I think you have made my point. SurfTech can hardly be called a US company and it certainly won’t keep the mfg. “industry” alive in the US. Cobra and others are already making boards for direct sales to dealers. How long can SurfTech survive and sell itself as “special” if I or others can buy surfboads direct from the Asian factory and bypass the US arm of the company?
People looking for more durable, better performing boards don’t have much choice. The choices are mainly one shaper or company to another. All the big shapers aren’t even hand shaping boards, and most are machined anyway, so whats the difference? There is no evidence that would suppourt a down ward trend in surfing,
The downward trend I was speaking of will come later. The evidence of that downward trend that you say is missing, is all around you. As the hard good product becomes generic and it loses its “pixie dust” magic it won’t be as cool to be surfer. One of the things that kept surfboards from being Generic was the huge backyard industry. Well over 60% of the boards made (Gordon once told me). Every neighborhood has a cool backyard shaper dude and as bad a that is for neighbors or legit manufacturers, it is the lifeblood that feeds the cool into surfing. Remember “windsurfing”. The boards went molded and in no time at all the industy imploded. Do you know anyone looking to be a “windsurfer” and looking to buy new windsurfing equipment. Likely not. There is no Pixie Dust and without it there is little desire for people to participate…it just isn’t cool anymore!
and if there is, there are still the true surfers out there who live a lifestle and not through a label. There is oppurtunity, perhaps now more then ever, for quality craftsmanship and a better product to thrive. New technology is the future. It happens in every industry except for surfboards…maybe things will finally change, and shitty craftsmanship will filter it’s way out. I would never recommend a youth to start shaping for a career or glassing poly, but the oppurtunity for a true entrepenure is still there. God forbid people may be forced to think about their products…this could be horrible!! Oh yea, don’t down play the importance of soft goods as they are keeping the industry alive more then hardgoods at this point. Ask Rusty or Lost what they would do without clothing sales, look at quiksilver and volcom, i believe they both had solid quarters, even with Clark’s closing…hmm…what does that say?
“True Surfers” are an illlusion. There is no such thing. There a guys who surf and those who don’t. There isn’t some priestly cabal of “real” surfers that are going to save the day because they do it with more heart and soul then the Blue Crush wannabees.
Surfboard making doesn’t lack innovation. Boards have been built of the same materials and techniques because the Pixie Dust isn’t in the construction. It is in the personalities. Remove the Personalities and you will kill the Magic. Molded boards remove the personalities. The advancements in construction you hope for isn’t going to make the industry better. It will lead to more molding and less hand construction. We have passed the turnaround point. There is no going back. Most boards will be mass produced in some fashion or another offshore.
Softgoods will be around but they are way better when driven by an activity and an exciting hardgood that is needed to do that activity. As someone once said long ago… This is the Action Sports Industry. “Standing on a street corner, smoking clove cigarettes and listening to music isn’t a SPORT!” It may drive street style fashion and sell some clothes but it won’t be enough to sustain the surf industry as we have known it.
I am not preaching disaster here. But big change is on the way. Our business model is going to have to resemble things like Snowboading etc. We will have to learn to live without persoanalities behind the hardgoods and make brands take their place. Of course I may be wrong and unexpected saviours may leap into the gap and save the day. It will be interesting to watch unfold.
“Of course I may be wrong and unexpected saviours may leap into the gap and save the day.”
Aloha Bill,
Have you ever been surprised (or wrong) about the direction of mainstream surfing and/or board manufacturing?
Thanks
Bill, it’s late now and I don’t have time to respond fully, but I will be sure to do so tomorrow. After all those statements, what really struck me about what you said is the last sentence, and that is the exact point I was trying to make. We are not seeing eye to eye rigth now, but I think our mentalities are very similar. I will explain more tomorrow.
Sounds like Mr. Barnfield is a Chinese agent. It’s probably useless to call the C.I.A., as the U.S.A. is already owned by the Chinese. …RH
26Dec05. Wailua river mouth. Epoxy boards just a blip on the ol screen!!
As an Ewa Beach self trained eps/epoxy composited board maker with an epoxy PHD(past having doubt), Clark foam closing has only caused more business for me. The closing for clark foam only will severly affect those working with those materials. The word at all the shops and from the shapers is “the container is on the way” , as of last week. I think with pu boards you are exactly correct. Game is over. Can’t find a glasser or sander? Try more pay. Bug exterminators make $10.00 more per hour than a sander and service offered to the community…no comparison. And when the container is on the way that means the check is in the mail…bug killing is looking real good now.
If the backyard shaper has a coolness edge in the industry, it is kind of hard to get that cool product out if one of the raw materials is not readily or cheaply available. But the word is the container is on the way???
For a Hawaii known and popular shaper, converting to eps/epoxy will allow them to survive. The cool factor of that shapers board, no matter what the material it is made of, still exists. Saving the industry? No, but personal survival is the goal. A custom epoxy sailboard goes for a large chunk of change. Oahu isn’t a mecca of windsurfing so there is no market here. Go to Maui or the Gorge, $1,500 gets you a custom epoxy.
The mecca of surfing…Oahu. People equate Hawaii built boards as quality products, they are exported from here everyday by many local board companies to places all over the world. 90% of the surfers on Oahu would do fine buying a molded board? Technically speaking you are probably right, but reality would show this fickeled young consumer would not tolerate such a bland uncool board. The most hip, cool shaper of the season still will rule in the mecca of the surf scene. When they sell out and get a surftech model named after them a new cool shaper will surface and the cycle will continue. Thier following will remain true if satisfied with a quality product. Sounds like you have a well deserved following of customers also. They haven’t succumbed to costco have they?
The foodland promax $150 surfbaord you predict? That’s cheaper than asparagus, orange juice and milk at foodland!!
Bill, you still haven’t really commented on the clark effect. That is the straw that broke the camel’s back. MAny have shown interest in buying EPS blanks from me in the past 3 weeks but no firm deals as of yet cuz they are all sitting on the dock of the bay waiting for the container to arrive. And the selection will be in the 6’ to the 6’6" range.HAAAAA!!! If U.S. shapers don’t have pu blanks, its hard to compete. Shaper of the year???hmmmm an epoxy builder and his status as king over rules anything imported. The current emperor is fully clothed in EPS and the peasants are naked unable to even find a clark shipping box to cover up with.
And for all those communist haters smoking your cuban cigars…
My eps foam made in Hawaii…the products to make the eps imported from korea and china
fiberglass/carbon fiber cloth…korea and Texas
sand paper…Mexico and Canada
Ancillary supplies…China
Epoxy…Arizona, ingredianets from who knows where.
Power tools…Japan
Made in Hawaii??? with the help of the rest of the world.
Mahalo BillA great insight, clear thinking as always and a script of the future that many understand but still refuse to accept…
It definitely will be interesting to see how it all settles out everything is a the cusp right now.
I figure inland mega-surf parks will be next to handle the lack of beaches with consistant waves for all the boards that will be made.
I presume this will be a good year for you folks up north with the wave machine turned on to “11”.
Thanks oneula. The season has been good so far. I have been too busy to take proper advantage of it…darn! Surf parks may be a savior, but they haven’t been in the past. I have been to Big Surf in Tempe, but they didn’t allow boards. But it was a huge success…wall to wall air mats. Dale would have been in surfmat heaven!
Aloha no…
and Haouli Makahiki Hou!
Hey Bill,I’ve been enjoying these sequence of posts a lot. I love this historical perspective of the facts. After all these tsunamilike happenings, I would like to see a future where people started to be annoyed of surfing, and the whole industry stablishment failed together. After this apocalyse, maybe a new generation could reborn this sport of the kings, and a new cycle could come with people learning again even what’s the meaning of surfing to their poor souls.
Happy New Year for all!!!
Meanwhile, I will follow mowing some more PU while they are among of us…
Aloha Jeff
I am with you on this one…how cool would it be if it became fashionable to hate surfing like people did Diso Music! Bad for business but great for catching waves!
Whoopee, no crowds.
Surfing has always gone through highs and lows. 1959 ..up ... 1969 ... down .....1979 .... up .... 1989 ... down .... 1999 .... up. We have somewhat of an historical cycle. Each time the cycle turns the sport changes, sometimes for better sometimes for the worse. The business in this cycle has moved toward offshore supply. This may or may not continue in the next cycle .... seems like it should but there are never any garrantees. As our dependancy on offshore supply increases we are more and more influenced by politics and real world pressures. Loosing our manufacturing base will cost us in the long run. How much we can't know.I don’t tend to agree that it’s quite as bleak as Bill outlined although some of the things I’ve witnessed in the past three weeks are not helping. Perhaps I’m in denial. Interesting view none the less. Thanks Bill.
Aloha Greg
I agree with your observation on industry cycles. But this isn’t a cycle, this is a whole new directional change. This time things are way different and the signals are all over the place. Like Clark closing down. Like Walker going offshore. Like Costco having surfboards.
Mass merchants always want in on the cool products but only do so once those products have matured (become boring to most of us) and safe enough for them to invest in. Then they charge right it.
I don’t mean to paint a bleak future. Just a different one than many are ready to seriously consider. Consider this, it is only bleak if the changes coming don’t fit one’s desired view of the future.
Greg and Bill,Some very interesting posts. Recently I had a Canadian fellow give me a history lesson. It was about how the US sent Demming to Japan after WWII to teach them the principles of manufacturing efficiency. It was not until years later that the US heeded their own advice to the Japanese! He also related about the USS Yorktown, the aircraft carrier that was in every major battle in the Pacific against the Japanese. After the war it was sold as scrap to guess who (Japan). I’m sure we probably got it back in the form of Hondas, Datsuns and Toyotas.
Good point Dave
If I remember right there are 3 portraits in the rotunda of Toyota Japan. Mr. Toyota, The Emperor and Demming!
Something I’ve noticed is that the Chinese learn quick. I have a shop full of US made surfboards with broken FCS plugs. There’s a CI glassed by Moonlight with a beautiful acid splash glass, but with the FCS install as crappy as I have ever seen. Bill answered another post by me about a CI with the fins installed pointing 2 feet or so in front of the nose. The way I look at it the fin install is as critical as anything else. I hate to say that I have not seen this lack of quality control on the boards from you know where. Greg in fact my son’s friend is riding an old fish made with RR 3/2 resin and 1.5 lbs blank while I repair the FCS’s that fell out of his Sharp Eye. Well hope everyone is having a wonderful holiday season. Got to get back to hotwiring some 1 lb eps for a Bert Burger special that’s in the works.
Good points on quality. Asians are not only hungrier but their life view is very compatible with concepts of high quality and the diciplines to achieve it. They will take great pleasure in the challenge of making better boards than Americans and outselling us in our own market.
Dave_D
"Of course I may be wrong and unexpected saviours may leap into the gap and save the day."Aloha Bill,
Have you ever been surprised (or wrong) about the direction of mainstream surfing and/or board manufacturing?
Thanks
Aloha Bruce
Yes I have been wrong but only when I want to hold onto my desired view of the future rather than recognize the one that that is most likely to come to pass.
There are forces at play that are not that complicated to recognize. If you add them up, you quickly see that there are very few alternatives to the predicted outcome. Other industries have already passed down this road and we can easily see how it worked out for them. Surfboards aren’t significantly different enough that the outcome of these forces on the surf industry will result in outcomes that are much different then they have been for other industries.
Sadly the surf industry is highly framented and full of independent thinkers that will never muster the group think required to combat these forces and change the outcomes. The future is not set in stone but is is pretty obvious to me where it is headed. And it was obvious to Clark. And is obvious to SurfTech. It is obvious to Santa Cruz who has just set up their own factory in China to build Molded boards. It is obvious to Walker. It is probably obvious to Costo also and I am sure they are salivating at the upcoming prospect of the molded board price wars. Of which the signs are already showing. Santa Cruz is already including a top of the line board bag with each board.
http://www.spectrum-cycles.com/The future in the US lies in high-quality craftmanship.
Build your own…
Aloha rolliges
I am afraid you are falling for that reality distortion common to the western mind that says that Americans can do it better and because of this we will somehow win.
Americans are amazing at what they accomplish but it isn’t a guarantee against other countries producing as good as or better then products and there are well documented histories of other countries doing it to us repeditively. Add way cheaper to that and we are toast!
Can’t find a glasser or sander? Try more pay. Bug exterminators make $10.00 more per hour than a sander and service offered to the community…no comparison.
(awesome pic!)
I was hoping someone would say that…can one pay the mortgage or rent off a sander’s wage? Just about any other trade pays more - even mowing lawns.
The problem is not the industry. The problem is consumers. 16-25 yeard old juveniles who simply dont want to pay too much for their toys. Its a terrible market. Im sure that’s not really Bill’s market anyway.
A lot of mass market talk here. Bill, arent you a niche player?
And; isn’t a Clark blank a molded product?
Bill, for every 16 year old kid who cant fix a flat bike tire, there are three 16 year old kids who can fix your buggy computer, or write computer code, or design software etc etc. Kids priorities have changed - many would rather stay indoors playing video games. I dont like it but thats just the way it is nowadays - less dirt, more 1’s and 0’s.
I actually agree more than disagree wrt Bill’s analysis, and its an interesting read. But there’s one key thing missing - QUALITY!
Okay, a show of hands: when considering a quality purchase, how many of you run to Wal-mart to buy Chinese?
The ignorant 16-25 masses can have it. The 25+ crew would think twice. OTOH, no one ever went broke under-estimating the ignorance of the American consumer.
Strange. When Im surfing the last thing on my mind is the surfboard industry. At any rate, good thread gents.
A swell and prosperous '06 to all.
cheers
Aloha Bill,
what a great collection of loose thoughts… I can see that you have a great capability in collecting and processing information. I would enjoy to have a couple of bottles of red wine with you, exchange thoughts, and ideas, argue and watch the stars go by. pitty I did not have the time to catch up with you when I was on Oahu recently, sorry about that, … the hawaiian efficiency wrecked my time plan… but there is always a tomorrow.
as you say, these are a collection of loose thoughts, many thoughts actually but I find that quite a few connections are made based on very fragile “facts”. the statement that boards from China would satisfy 90% of surfers today. that, Bill, is nothing but wishfull thinking… and as such many of your conclusions loose the “solid” base.
you may be right that China is a place that can produce surfboards. maybe even good and cheap. but China is not in the surfboard business since 10 years, you are wrong there. I used to exhibit at the ISPO in Munich and year after year, my neighbor was a chinese board manufacturer. he got a bit bigger every year and his products improved bit by bit… but that was 25 years ago…
but what I really want to say is that China may be able to produce boards but China can not create or maintain a market. and just the pro surfers can not either. check out the history of sailboarding… its written there what happens if you have a product but can not keep the market interested… also, China is already loosing its position as the No.1 manufacturing place because there are cheaper places around. cheaper, he? and why do they all learn faster all the time? because they can “buy” expertise and experts more and more easily. this opens doors for the clever, the smart, the innovative…
and your prognosis about big japanese companies is absolutely wrong. I have strong connections to Japan and spend quite a lot of time there and I am always amazed about how quality conscious the japanese are. they do not accept their big name brand products if they are not made in Japan, no way. and companies like Toyota did not go to cheap manufacturing places without securing their future first, Lexus. and I think the surfboard industry can learn from this quite a bit.
In all the discussion and talk about Clark and his sudden factory closure I miss one aspect that I believe is of enormous importance. social responsibility. does that not exist in the US? I remember a case in France, where the Schlumpf brothers closed their factory over night and 2000 employees were locked out. for decades those guys pulled hundreds of millions of dollars out of their business for their hobby, a car collection (by far the biggest in the world). but they did not get away with it … the french government confiscated the whole museum on grounds of “social responsibility” and the poor guys had to spend the rest of their lives without their toys.
the closure of Clark left the US with a vacuum that will be filled very, very fast. blanks will be produced in the US, blanks will be imported from other countries. alternative materials like EPS can show their worth and in 6 month America will have a choice of blanks like never before. the quality of PU blanks will improve as the competition will increase (like here in Australia) and the clever, the smart and the innovative will be pulling new strings. who knows where it ends…
who cares anyway, the journey is the fun…
Just so all you boardmakers can share a little optimism about the future…
I have bought more new boards in the last two years (8) than I did in the previous 40. I always had the desire to ride more boards and experiment, I just never had the $$$.
Two of the boards were custom-made by a local shaper, the rest were "made in America" foam boards, some by "big" names, some by smaller "boutique" names. What I, as an amateur, want in a board, is something produced in the US, by hand, by real surfers. I support my local shops and shapers 'cause if I don't there won't be any and I know what that's like up here in New England where there's not a lot of either.
If you stay small and create a quality product the world will eventually beat a path to your door. If you want to grow into a major business presence and employ a lot of people then you will continually be subject to the economic forces of the global marketplace and competition from companies that have a lot more money behind them than you do. Word of mouth among surfers is what will make the difference in the long run. People who consider themselves "real" surfers are the biggest snobs in the world when it comes to equipment and it has pretty much always been that way. I include myself in this group. Remember when Sears was selling "popouts"? Did you know anyone who considered themselves a "real" surfer that would be seen with one?
Having a quiver of 8 or 10 boards with a Surftech thrown in for travel is one thing. Having a quiver of 8 or 10 boards ALL made by Surftech is unlikely for any of us equipment snobs.
Make good stuff.
I’ll buy it.
There are many thousands of surfers out there like me.
26Dec05. Wailua river mouth. Epoxy boards just a blip on the ol screen!!Aloha CMP
A blip is not an insult. It is a reality. There are many boards made by many shapers out of many materials. I know the dream for the styropoxy guys is to win the contest and finally be validated. But that is based on the idea that there is a contest and a race to see who wins. Problem is, the only ones aware of the contest and trying to win the race are the styropoxy guys. The rest of the surfboard making world doen’t care one way or the other. Be content in what you do and why you do it. Who cares if the rest of the world recognizes it. You are a fine fellow CMP but this message of styropoxy winning is getting old and redundant. People don’t care about styropoxy and whether or not it wins in the end. It is just another material that they will use if necessary without any stigma attached. The message of Clark closing is not that styropoxy is winning and pu/pe is losing. The true message is that molded boards, regardless of the materials used, are looming big on the horizon and handmade boards are in extreme jeapordy
The future of surfboards will not look like before only with all the boards being stropoxy. Those who think so or even hope so are living in a reality distortion. If I am wrong here you can badger the hell out of me in a couple of years for my ignorance and faulty predictions.
As an Ewa Beach self trained eps/epoxy composited board maker with an epoxy PHD(past having doubt), Clark foam closing has only caused more business for me. The closing for clark foam only will severly affect those working with those materials. The word at all the shops and from the shapers is “the container is on the way” , as of last week. I think with pu boards you are exactly correct. Game is over. Can’t find a glasser or sander? Try more pay. Bug exterminators make $10.00 more per hour than a sander and service offered to the community…no comparison. And when the container is on the way that means the check is in the mail…bug killing is looking real good now.
Good sanders can make about $50.00 per hour. But I only know a couple that will show up faultlessly everyday and sand at least 10 boards per day. A sanders income is much more regulated by the amount of boards they do, not the rate of pay. And very few have the discipline to take advantage of the economic power of piece work pay
If the backyard shaper has a coolness edge in the industry, it is kind of hard to get that cool product out if one of the raw materials is not readily or cheaply available. But the word is the container is on the way???
For a Hawaii known and popular shaper, converting to eps/epoxy will allow them to survive. The cool factor of that shapers board, no matter what the material it is made of, still exists. Saving the industry? No, but personal survival is the goal. A custom epoxy sailboard goes for a large chunk of change. Oahu isn’t a mecca of windsurfing so there is no market here. Go to Maui or the Gorge, $1,500 gets you a custom epoxy.
True but how many are produced compared to the heydays of the late 80s or early 90s? Molded boards have devestated the custom sailboard market. And while $1,500 sounds like a windfall of profit, these things are so labor intensive that they are only marginally profitable. You do realize that very shop in the Gorge is stocked full of Molded Boards…not custom hand made boards.
The mecca of surfing…Oahu. People equate Hawaii built boards as quality products, they are exported from here everyday by many local board companies to places all over the world. 90% of the surfers on Oahu would do fine buying a molded board? Technically speaking you are probably right, but reality would show this fickeled young consumer would not tolerate such a bland uncool board.
Not true. Reality says that Surftech has sold tens of thousands of those uncool molded boards. Who to? Probably hard to say but a fair share of them has to be young hip surfer dudes.
And you do know that many boards are now imported to Hawaii because they are considered more cool than locally made boards. This was unheard of a few years ago.
The most hip, cool shaper of the season still will rule in the mecca of the surf scene. When they sell out and get a surftech model named after them a new cool shaper will surface and the cycle will continue. Thier following will remain true if satisfied with a quality product. Sounds like you have a well deserved following of customers also. They haven’t succumbed to costco have they?
Maybe not yet but when those molded boards are for sale for under $300.00 the custom board market is going to be sweating bullets
The foodland promax $150 surfbaord you predict? That’s cheaper than asparagus, orange juice and milk at foodland!!
Ha! Good point!
Bill, you still haven’t really commented on the clark effect.
I haven’t commented because I don’t think it is a big deal. Production will ramp up from other suppliers and if 60% of Clarks production went to backyarders, they will be cut out of the supply chain for awhile and there will be enough production to supply legit mfgs.
The real issue of Clark closing is the implication that he was seeing what I am predicting and he didn’t want to be there for the take over by the molded boards like what happened in windsurfing.
That is the straw that broke the camel’s back. MAny have shown interest in buying EPS blanks from me in the past 3 weeks but no firm deals as of yet cuz they are all sitting on the dock of the bay waiting for the container to arrive. And the selection will be in the 6’ to the 6’6" range.HAAAAA!!! If U.S. shapers don’t have pu blanks, its hard to compete. Shaper of the year???hmmmm an epoxy builder and his status as king over rules anything imported. The current emperor is fully clothed in EPS and the peasants are naked unable to even find a clark shipping box to cover up with.
And for all those communist haters smoking your cuban cigars…
My eps foam made in Hawaii…the products to make the eps imported from korea and china
fiberglass/carbon fiber cloth…korea and Texas
sand paper…Mexico and Canada
Ancillary supplies…China
Epoxy…Arizona, ingredianets from who knows where.
Power tools…Japan
Made in Hawaii??? with the help of the rest of the world.
[=Blue]Clearly a world economy making a few boards in Hawaii. Kind of cool really. Among the old and new players. Old and new technologies and materials. Who has the greatest chance of winning?
Can't find a glasser or sander? Try more pay. Bug exterminators make $10.00 more per hour than a sander and service offered to the community...no comparison.
(awesome pic!)
Aloha Meecrafty
I was hoping someone would say that…can one pay the mortgage or rent off a sander’s wage? Just about any other trade pays more - even mowing lawns.
Maybe wages for sanding are low in Florida. We need some manufacturers here to log in and tell us what they pay or get paid and how long it takes them to do a board. Real production sanders please tell us so we can get an idea of average pay for sanding.
The problem is not the industry. The problem is consumers. 16-25 yeard old juveniles who simply dont want to pay too much for their toys. Its a terrible market. Im sure that’s not really Bill’s market anyway.
My market is anyone that wants a board. The loss of any sale hurts
A lot of mass market talk here. Bill, arent you a niche player?
Yes, but what is your point? My being a niche player doesn’t effect my prediction that molded boards are going to dominate the surfboard industry. Especially once they drop down in price.
And; isn’t a Clark blank a molded product?
Yes…but again what is your point. Are you thinking that I was saying that molded things are bad? I wasn’t saying that. I have no problem with molded boards. They are entering the market at a very oportune time and will be highly successful.
Bill, for every 16 year old kid who cant fix a flat bike tire, there are three 16 year old kids who can fix your buggy computer, or write computer code, or design software etc etc. Kids priorities have changed - many would rather stay indoors playing video games. I dont like it but thats just the way it is nowadays - less dirt, more 1’s and 0’s.
Agreed, but where does one then go to get their flat tire fixed? Or their dings repaired properly, etc. I am not taking sides or arguing one way or the other. I was just relating the circumstances that I experience, good bad or otherwise. If you want to open a bike shop this could be a problem. If you want to open a surfboard factory this could be a problem. If you want to open a computer repair shop it could be a godsend. I happen to have a bike shop and a surfboard factory and it is slim pickings trying to find good help and I don’t see many young men equiped to change that. Consequently there are some kinds of business that may not be wise to be going into. And there are other places like China where opening a surfboard factory might be a brilliant idea.
I actually agree more than disagree wrt Bill’s analysis, and its an interesting read. But there’s one key thing missing - QUALITY!
Okay, a show of hands: when considering a quality purchase, how many of you run to Wal-mart to buy Chinese?
That is not a fair question Meecrafty. By average standards we are elite enthusiasts. If we were bicyclists we would buy our bikes in cool bike shops or via mail order. Not at WalMart. But bike shops only sell only 5 million bikes a year. Mass Merchants like WalMart sell 15 million!
If we want to grow our customer base it will be among the non elite that the new customers come. And they will be quite content with molded boards from China, just like those 15 million bicycle customers are. Later they may advance to elite customers and buy a custom hand made surfboard. But if the Bicycle model qualifies the amount that advance to elite will be only a third of those at the entry level.
When the entry level surfer can buy a $300 molded board that will exceed his abilities for the first year or more he will consider it more than a fair deal. And so will thousands of moms and dads,
Those bikes at WalMart are serious pieces of crap but that doesn’t stop people from buying them by the millions. So what does that tell us. It clearly says that from a Quality, Performance, Price ratio the customer finds them to be quite adequate. And the surfboards sold at Costco are 100 times better then those bikes are. Once molded board that are more durable, lighter, good designs and more than cheap enough get in the market. Either the industry will have to find new customers to buy them or we will scavenge existing customers from the handcrafted segment of the industry. Time will tell, but I don’t think we will have long to wait.
The American consumer that does so in volumes does not rate quality high on their value scale. Niche consumers do but they are a very small segment of the market and there are many businesses praying on them.
The ignorant 16-25 masses can have it. The 25+ crew would think twice. OTOH, no one ever went broke under-estimating the ignorance of the American consumer.
Strange. When Im surfing the last thing on my mind is the surfboard industry. At any rate, good thread gents.
A swell and prosperous '06 to all.
cheers
Mahalo Bill.
I guess my point of all this, and Les’ post supports the point, the market is made up of slices, some big and some small. As you know, a small custom mfg cannot compete on the price slice and any attempt to do so right now is obsurd. I didnt even know your brand existed until you came to sways so I just assumed your brand as niche. Niche is the way to ultimitely survive as a small mfg. There isnt an issue of Fast Company mag that doesnt cover niches.
Somehow I think you’ll be alright.
My other point, wrt China is of Perception - the popular perception is Chinese made goods are not of high quality. This is an open door to niche players. Of course, this could change over time.
But I can tell you from first hand knowledge from several business trips to China and its manufacturers, that from their perspective it all about VOLUME. Anytime the dicussion turned to quality, they’d quickly turn it into a volume discussion. It was very hard to persuade them to put more effort into Q control. Those issues were built into the contracts and their solution was to simply make a few percent more units for free to cover warranty returns (talk about a back-ended solution). If a recall occured they’re supposed to pay for it. Trouble is they found ways to blame someone else (very good at this) to the point where shipping containers full of product were sitting at Long beach with each side saying “its not mine”. At times these relationships were in deep doo doo. Eventually, compromises were reached.
Chinese are smart and they knew how to play their hand very well - basically it was like this: “who else is going to make this for you at this price huh?”, “go ahead and find another supplier we got other American companies just waiting to get in with us”. I eventually became fed up and quit a high paying product development, project management job with the company. It was a management position with no authority - and everyone wanted all the latest bells and whistles but no one wanted to pay for it. GOOD RIDDENCE!!!
So it may be a while before Quality gets the attention it deserves. Only time will tell.
PS - I remember a colleage who was getting really squeezed on price by marketing/Walmart, so there he was trying to reduce the product’s cost - partly by replacing a $0.01 resistor with cheaper one!
Its absolutely true…you get what you pay for.
well top marks to miki …
i couldnt fault any of mikis logic …
and the next best job going for ex surfboard builders will be killing bugs while mowing at the same time …
ive had enough opinions in the past and seen them all happen over the last few years , i agree with quite a few of bills sentiments …
right now im busy , busier than ever , and for the last 6 years havnt even got within 6 months of making a dent in the backlog …
meanwhile surfboard factories are closing all over the place , a small confession here ,in the last 10 years i have still made a few p/u p/e boards here and there …
but they didnt come cheap , but they were quality …
regardless of the materials you use , quality sells …
quality assures you get your price …
when an imported board is better quality than a domestic board ?? then what ??
moulded boards are there , yes they are stealing valuable work from the domestic industry …
but they will put surfers in the water , those surfers ,90% of whom will never progress past there first board , that first board still being pulled out on the occasional family gathering here and there …
but 10% will move onto a custom board …
right now customisation and timely turn around are keeping the industry alive …
surfers are willing to except a lower quality in exchange for having it quick and custom , but consider what the bulk of todays board buyers started on and what there accustomed to buying …
but what about the 10% who change from there moulded learner boards to the status quo custom today???
tommorows market for custom boards is changing …
thanks to mass produced entry level boards that 10% is now so much bigger , as the customer base broadens, those at the top of the triangle only have there posistions solidified , i cant believe there is only a handful here ??
surftech is the best thing that ever happened in my life …
its a bummer i had to wait 15 years for the world to catch up before i could commercialise what i do without having to re-educate every customer to the benifits of sandwich (now everyone selling surftechs has done the hardwork for me )…
but it works both ways , i slogged alot of pavement and stocked plenty of shops and when i couldnt service the demand anymore because of being to busy , surftechs took that rack space i couldnt fill …
that rack space didnt go back to a p/u p/e …
give the market the tech they want , make it custom and timely and you have a good business …
mass produced p/u p/e built for the entry level surfer spawned a demand for custom p/u p/e by the 10% who stuck with it …
10 to 15 years back i couldnt sell enough 7 to 7’-6" mini mals , every summer i would kick myself for not making more during the winter , every summer the entry level market would flood in and buy what was there , next summer a handful from the previous year would come back for another different board to help with there progression ,thats the 10% …
every board builder i know or at least the ones who did well all year , paid there bills making entry level mini mals , it was common practice to use second blanks and make them as cheap as possible to get them out there …
second blanks were always in high demand , you could always make a learner board and sticker or spray the defect …
i had surfblanks ring me up 6 months back , cant give away factory seconds , why not ???
because the market for entry level boards has shifted …
the board you learn on establishes your preferences for life , no matter what style of board you learnt on , curves materials etc , you become accustomed to it , because it establishes your style …
how many surfers who learnt in the late 70s and early 80s on flatter tailed boards ever felt at home on a rockered 90s board that needed to be worked off the front foot ??
you think a guy who learnt on a board moulded from materials that behave differently and perform differently will ever feel at home on a custom board made of completly different materials that doesnt even last 1/10th as long as his first moulded board ??..
custom boards will always have a market , entry level boards will always be the cheapest on the market , satisfy the 10% and your in business …
satisfy the 90% and your in business …
right now the 90% is being converted rapidly to eps/ epoxy …
so what will tommorows 10% want ???
tommorows 10% will still want a custom board …
china , thailand , ethiopia , can make all the surfboards they want …
not core ,not custom , not designed for the individual by a guy who understands design and the needs of the surfer …
but perfect for the guy who knows no better …
many have fallen victim to the surftech hype ,some have gone back to the feeling of what they have always favoured , what they learnt on , but many are also now wishing they could get that surftech custom , but cant …
Earth to the surfboard industry !!! IS ANYBODY HOME ???
things certainly have changed , in fact they have been changing for the last 20 years , most just ignored what was happening around them without a second thought …
its got nothing to do with winning or losing , its about reality …
for to long the surfboard industry has tried to exist in an artificial bubble and use every excuse possible why its not practical to move into the 20th century …
there is room for an industry in every location where there is waves , but it wont be making boards that are worse than todays lowest common form of a pop out …
people will only pay top dollar for a custom in the latest tech , if your custom is based on 50 year old tech that can be easily reproduced in china and isnt even up to the standard of a modern entry level moulded board , then yes your future does look bleak …
p/u p/e wont die as long as people are prepared to make them and people are prepared to buy them …
ive had staff in the last 10 years who never even saw a p/u made before , then when they did , and they saw how it was done , the techniques , methods , the SMELL , the itch and then compared that to the finished product and the difference between the 2 …
they were repulsed , i would say yep thats the way we did it , day in and day out …
i would get comments like , why would you even bother making a board like that when it just falls appart , is heavy and goes like crap , "because thats what some people still want " i would say …
convince the next generation of board builders , let them choose what to build , we already know what the market wants , why do you think the industry is dying ???
its not because nobody is buying surfboards , its because the surfboards being built arent meeting the expectations of the consumer …
we all know clark didnt really have to close if he didnt want to , he cited many reasons …
it seems all those other reasons are being somewhat overlooked …
he was an astute business man and was very observant of trends and industry changes …
he milked it to the last blank…
no slow choking death for clark…
would you like fries with your mimi mal ?? yea and chuck in a side salad and a block of wax …
yep bill you got that part right …
imagine if you went into a fine resturant for a freshly cooked meal from the best chefs and they slapped a big mac on your plate ???
i would say you could hardly call yourself a fine resturant …
is there a market for fine dining ??
yes as long as the best possible menu is available …
Earth to ANYBODY !!!
opportunity waiting …
regards
BERT