Hey all,
I have a few questions that don’t really seem to have easy answers online…
Who is making the most environmentally friendly boards?
What materials/processes are being used?
What level of enviro-expertise exists here on Swaylocks?
What say you all on these issues?
gracias,
Randy
Who is making the most environmentally friendly boards?
Roy’s got us all beat there. Sealed wood, no glass, no resin, no foam.
What materials/processes are being used?
I’m using recyclable EPS, plantation renewable balsa, low VOCs epoxy. If I was really shooting for enviroboards, I’d probably be glassing with hemp… But a slightly more environmentally friendly board is simply the by-product of the methods and materials I’ve chosen, not the goal.
What level of enviro-expertise exists here on Swaylocks?
More than the general population, but not as much as a person would like. I think Clark’s closing pushed a lot of the surfboard-related health and environmental issues more into the surfing public’s eye.
What say you all on these issues?
Think globally, act locally. In corpus christi, there is one shop that refuses to sell the chinese pop-outs. Dockside. They still sell wetties and rashies that are quite possibly made in korea, etc… But you do what you can do. Don’t buy foreign-made boards. Don’t feed the machine that is fueling the need for all these cheap boards. I just purchased my second (EVER!) rashguard. I got a plain white one with no logos because I don’t want to send billabong or reef or whatever any more money to seduce more trendy young 'tards into the water with more boards made cheaply in china with poor pollution controls. Sometimes you can’t avoid it, you can’t make your own wettie, and you probably shouldn’t make your own wax, and you have to go buy a leash… But you can wear the 3-for$5 tees from walmart instead of the $25 Quik tee, for example. Anytime I can avoid feeding the logocracy and avoid giving free advertising to get more people into the water, I do. Besides, who wants to look like a “surfer” anyway?
Small things, but I do what I can.
hi trucker
theoretically
it would be epoxy,hemp or perhaps bamboo or some plantation timber, over styrofoam
plantation timber fins
hemp leash
in practice durability becomes the predominant isssue
so sacrafice in materials for improved longevity makes a lot of sense
ie, fibre glass cloth
i make reasonably environmentally friendly boards as a hobbie
i dont subscribe to label whore crap
Great info…
I’m having a mini-breakdown over these issues. Clark’s closure has forced me to think more about what I’m doing when it comes to building boards. Cleaning the foam dust out of my garage was disgusting, and I still haven’t found a place to “safely” dump it.
My girlfriend is ordering a balsa blank as a non-denominational ritualistic seasonal gift (I’m not too religious, but I do love presents), although if anyone knows where to get paulownia, that info would be greatly appreciated.
What is the deal with hemp cloth? Flex? Durability? Epoxy over hemp, right?
How does Roy seal his wood? Is that a viable alternative to the light glass job a balsa blank gets?
Any more info out there??? I’d love to have it! Gracias!
balsa has its issues
salt water turns it into a pulpy mess very quickly
you still need to make it water tight
a hollow wood such as paul jensen or roys stewarts wood be a good option regarding topic
if you want light weight then you need to look at styro cores and thinner skins
me and a few mates are building super durable shortboards at around 4 to 5 pounds
i cant comment on hemp as ive never used it thus far
yoshio tried it and said it wasnt very stiff
so a higher density styro core would be the deal
maybe a bamboo deck and hemp bottom would be cool
Neira is trialing cork as an option at the moment
with positive results
Hey,
By the way, the wood blank is for a traditional longboard to ride when it’s head-high and under. I’m still looking for options for shortboards…
thanks!
When you consider all factors including strength to weight and modern needs, its pretty hard to beat a eps/epoxy. Before I get jumped on, when I say all factors, I mean ALL factors.
Gary Young (the Godfather of compsands) has done a bit of work in this area…using bamboo (weaved and non weaved) skins.
The chigger in the woodpile is waterproofing…if it wasnt a requirement, surfboards would be lots more enviro-friendly.
Bottom line tho…less styrene emissions from PE resin and less TDI from pu blanks is a really good start IMO.
Hey all,I have a few questions that don’t really seem to have easy answers online…
Who is making the most environmentally friendly boards?
What materials/processes are being used?
What level of enviro-expertise exists here on Swaylocks?
What say you all on these issues?
gracias,
Randy
Danny Hess shapes professionally, and makes hollow wood boards using only renewably harvested timbers.
To get weights for his boards competitive in the market, he uses EPS ribs for the wood board. But he would do wood ribs too, it will just weigh more.
Check out his website, it has a full description of his methods. He was a “green” carpenter before shaping boards.
Hey Trucker,
Check out the fish that Wood Ogre built. He grew and harvested his balsa. Not much fuel wasted transporting the balsa.
There’s also some stuff in the archives of different experiments and discussions on enviro boards. Keith’s rice krispy blank to gourd boards, they’re all there.
Cheers,
Rio
Trucker,
Check out this site. It has some interviews/link/info geared towards more environmentally thoughful practices as far as surfboard construction is concerned:
There are so many variables, and each have their drawbacks. If you have to ship an environmentally friendly material halfway across the country, it suddenly isn’t so environmentally friendly anymore. Just being conscious of the impact our boards have on the environment and ultimately on our very playground is a huge step in the right direction though.
Durability is an easily achieved benefit with any of the current materials. Then the question is, how concerned are you with weight? In answering that question it tends to lead you down the path/materials you are looking for.
Hey Randy:
As a Marine Biologist and a surfer/shaper there is a lot of conflict in the making/using
of modern surfboards. Ecologically, the core materials, excluding 100% balsa (which
is another problem altogether) are terrible. Don’t let any EPS proponents tell you (if you
don’t know what I mean, look it up) that EPS is better. It isn’t. It has a half-life greater
than pu/pe construction. The only advantage is that they last longer and therefore you
buy less boards per year and contribute less to the problem. Epoxy has an incredible half-life
as well, and if used on balsa, creates the same problem. I see a future where the
current population of beings (not necessarily human) examines the geologic record and
sees a layer of plastics precedeing
the demise of humankind. (but I digress)
Anyway, I would think that you should look at what is most efficient in design for your
application and will last the longest in that use. I really hate the posters that complain (not on this
board, but the other one) that they break a board every couple of months and what is up with that?
I have boards that I surf regularly that are over 10 years old and many of the pep’s here
have a collection (and use)boards that are older than that.
I would propose to you this: that you consider improving the break/ocean conditions of the place
that you surf the most and don’t worry so much about what you are riding. That is were the
ecological payback is the greatest, that is where you and
your offspring will benifit the most and that is where we as a species will contribute the most
to the great place we live and surf!!
Sorry for the lecture,
BKB
Who is making the most environmentally friendly boards?
Roy’s got us all beat there. Sealed wood, no glass, no resin, no foam.
Hi Shwuz Thanks for the encouragement. I don't make any claims about being environmentally friendly, and haven't really tried to be environmentally friendly on the macro scale. If I'm doing anything right on the enviro front it's more or less by instinct and by doing it on the micro scale.. . . thinking about what's friendly for myself, my children and my neighbours . . . if it stinks and is likely to cause health problems it's out, if it doesn't last, it's out, and if it is imported wood it's too expensive, so it's also out. I'm using resin by the way, just straight 4:1 epoxy, no additives, solvents, or toxic pigments. I think that making the board last is a biggie. :)
How does Roy seal his wood? Is that a viable alternative to the light glass job a balsa blank gets?
Hi Trucker,
These days we are just epoxy sealing the boards because we use Paulownia, which is nice and hard already, and we could seal it with low tech shellacs, or varnishes, or linseed oil paint. . . even straight linseed oil as Tom Wegener is doing, the epoxy resin is a luxury it’s hard to give up though.
Regarding cloth and the glassing of softer materials like balsa, we have done lots of balsa and redwood boards ‘glassed’ with silk, cotton, or polycotton., and they are all good structural cloths ,cotton in the form of muslin or cheescloth is nice to ‘glass’ with . . even wool is a good structurally. Hemp isn’t the only alternative cloth. . . . cotton is very good structurally, WEST sytem use it in their 301 glue powder.
Wooden board guys tend to want to glass with glassfibre because it is very clear and they feel the need to display the wood , but some very attractive results can be had with patterned cotton and silk, or rayon, anywhere the cloth is white the wood shows through, slightly obscured, but nice.
One of the main reasons that board builders use glass is that it works as a fairing compound. . . enabling the board to be faired and sheathed in one go, other cloths are not so user friendly for fairing purposes so it takes more work to finish with other cloths.
BTW zinc oxide makes a good white pigment, filler, and fairing compound.
.
I’m using resin by the way, just straight 4:1 epoxy, no additives, solvents, or toxic pigments.
I am in the process of building my first wooden board. The “epoxy only” option sounds very appealing – for both environmental reasons and for simplicity. Do you apply more than one coat? Do you ever get dents in the wood since there is no fiber glass layer to protect the board from rocks?
Hi Swied,
More than one coat is necessary, as the first coat raises the grain in the wood, which then neds to be trimmed back. We just apply resin with a disposable brush, sand as soon as it is sandable (softer to sand, less dust as the dust just balls up, and there is some chemical bond with the next layer) and then go again with another brushed layer, use as many layers as needed. Use gloves when sanding freshly cured epoxy though, as it is still active.
The first layer needs to be more cured than subsequent layers as the wood grain ‘fuzz’ needs hardish resin so that it can be chopped back
Ding wise, epoxy seems to be as tough as epoxy plus cloth, but theoretically it isn’t. Anyway the epoxy coated boards are very tough, and the best part is that any dings which happen are much easier to repair (IMO) than on a fibreglassed board.
What a buzz to see so many people are thinking hard about the most environmental surfboard!
I have been going round and round experimenting and thinking about this for a long time. It’s true every board takes substantial modern energy imput from freighting raw materials to the electricity in making the board. But getting closer to the environmentally friendly board gives a feeling of satisfaction.
I have been making flat, wood Alaia boards based on the ones I saw in the bishop museum. I use paulownia and just seal the board with linseed oil. I have purchased the entire stock of paulownia from a little private plantation in NSW Australia. The nice old man planted, grew and harvested the trees himself. Then the wood comes to me and I mill it.
Finally, I have one piece that is 10 feet long, 2 1/2" thick and 15 1/2" wide. This is just big enough to make a good stand up Alaia. I am so stoked! It is like a little dream. Normally I have to glue pieces together with the petroleum based glue.
Solid planks of wood can really ride good. (If you haven’t tried a good one you don’t know.) I recommend anyone to get back to basics and glue some wood together and try an Alaia shape.
On the other hand, as several writers have mentioned above, a very big part of being an environmental surfboard is how long a surfboard lasts. If epoxy boards bring many years of surfing joy, then I think that is fine. But wood seems to be the longest lasting so far. In Dukes restaurant in Waikiki there are lots of photos of the Duke holding his 16 foot Olo. Some he is younger and some he is older. He aged but the board looked about the same. Then you can see the board hanging on the wall. That is a long lasting board!
Tom Wegener
Welcome to Swaylocks, Tom! It’s good to hear your thoughts, keep them coming! A lot of people here are very interested in your boards and building methods.
aloha,
Keith
Aloha Tom and welcome to Sway’s!
I’m intrigued by the vision that you have undertaken. I’m also stoked on your boards, lifestyle, and wave riding skill. W/O getting to pissy on the subject, I wonder how the old guy that you bought the entire stoke of wood from will go from here on out? Does he replant and set aside his crop of trees for the next generation, or is this wood a fast grower? I know in the big picture, surfboard building is nothing compared to the bigger consumers, but if we use wood from trees that take a lifetime to grow, how do the numbers add up as sustainable?
For me, I can not answer this question, but, as I think you do, take pride in the fact that my work will stand up over time and last long enough to get passed down like the Duke board that you’ve spoken of. So much wood, or timber gets used for our busy world that it’s much more of a dilemma than is on the surface of the questions asked. I’d be interested in your global outlook on the subject as I know there are many fine woodworkers in attendance here. There are a few builders here that I know live in regions that have plenty. I once lived in a region that had abundance as well. Now I go to the wood lot and buy what ever I want from what is left to economic availability.
Again, I’m wondering if you have some opinions on the subject. Good waves!
==[/url]epac
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Old growth forest, sometimes called late seral forest, ancient forest, virgin forest, primary forest or ancient woodland is an area of forest that has attained great age and exhibits unique biological features. Old growth forests typically contain large live trees, large dead trees (sometimes called “snags”), and large logs. Old growth forests usually have multiple vertical layers of vegetation representing a variety of tree species and a variety of different age classes.
Redwoods in old growth forest in Muir Woods National Monument, Marin County, California.
Forest regenerated after severe disruptions, such as clear-cut or fire is often referred to as second-growth or regeneration until a long enough period has passed that the effects of the disturbance are no longer evident. Depending on the forest, this may take anywhere from a century to several millennia. Hardwood forests of the eastern United States can develop old-growth characteristics in one or two generations of trees, or 150-500 years.
Old growth forests may be home to rare species which are dependent on this now-rare habitat making them ecologically significant. Biodiversity may be higher or lower in old growth forests than in second-growth forests depending on specific circumstances. Logging in old growth forests is a contentious issue in many parts of the world. Contents
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Many botanists specifically define old growth in terms of meeting several criteria, under which system forests with sufficient age and minimal disturbance are considered old growth. Typical characteristics of old-growth forest include presence of older trees, minimal signs of human disturbance, mixed-age stands, presence of canopy openings due to tree falls, pit-and-mound topography, down wood in various stages of decay, standing snags (dead trees), multi-layered canopies, intact soils, a healthy fungal ecosystem, and presence of indicator species. [/url][edit] Mixed age
The mixed age of the forest is an important criterion in ensuring that the forest is a relatively stable ecosystem in the long term. A climax stand that is a uniformly-aged becomes senescent and degrades within a relatively short time-period to result in a new cycle of forest succession. Thus, it is a less stable ecosystem. [/url][edit] Canopy openings
Canopy openings are essential in creating and maintaining the mixed-age stands. In addition, some herbaceous plants only become established in canopy openings although they are able to persist thereafter in the darker understory. Canopy openings created by natural disturbance events such as wind, ice, and mixed-severity fire retain significant structural enrichment from dead trees, whereas canopy opening created by logging are structurally simplified and deprived of the legacy structures that normally occur in healthy old-growth forests. [/url][edit] Topography
Pit-and-mound topography is the characteristic lay of the land after trees that have fallen due to natural causes create pits where roots have pulled out and mounds where the root mass decays (with the soil clinging to the roots). These places provide, in the pit, fresh exposure of humus-poor, mineral-rich soil, often a place where moisture may collect and in which fallen leaves soon form a thick organic layer and so able to nurture certain types of organisms, while the mound provides a place free from leaf inundation and saturation where other types of organisms may thrive. [/url][edit] Standing snags
Standing snags provide food sources and habitat for many types of organisms. Several species of woodpeckers, in particular, must have standing snags available for feeding. The spotted owl is well-known for needing standing snags for nesting habitat. [/url][edit] Decaying ground layer
Down wood directly contributes carbon-rich organic material directly to the soil, in providing a substrate for mosses and fungi and for seedlings, and in creating microhabitats by creating relief on the forest floor. Down wood, which is significant in some ecosystems such as the temperate rain forest of the Pacific coast for providing a seedling substrate, is termed nurse logs. [/url][edit] Soil
Intact soils harbor many life-forms that rely on them. Intact soils generally have very well-defined horizons, or soil profiles. Different organisms may need certain well-defined soil horizons in order to live, while many trees need well-structured soils free of disturbance in order to thrive. Some herbaceous plants in northern hardwood forests must have thick duff layers (which are part of the soil profile).
Fungal ecosystems are essential for efficient in-situ recycling of nutrients back into the entire ecosystem. [/url][edit] Importance of old growth forests
Due to the lack of severe disturbance, old growth is often associated with rich communities of plants and animals that may be dependent upon the unique environmental conditions created by these forests. The age of the oldest trees indicates that disturbance events during the long period of development were of moderate intensity at most and did not kill all vegetation. This long period of pseudostability allows the old growth forest to become occupied over time by a wide variety of species, some of them rare.
Old growth forest serves as a reservoir for species which cannot thrive or easily regenerate in younger forest, and as such can be used as a baseline for research.
Old growth forests also store large amounts of carbon, both above and below ground. These forests collectively represent a significant pool of climate gases. Continued liquidation of these forests may increase the risk of global climate change. However, because growth is roughly equal to decay within old growth forests, they do not sequester significant amounts of atmospheric carbon—this is in contrast with young forests [1]
[/url][edit] Location of Remaining Ancient Forests
Greenpeace in 2006 identified the remaining substantial ancient forest areas as being:
For more information see: http://www.intactforests.org/ [/url][edit] Logging in old growth forests
The large trees in old growth forests are economically valuable, so these forests have been subjected to aggressive logging around the world. This has led to much controversy between logging companies and environmental groups. [/url][edit] References
1. ^ Trends in bole biomass accumulation, net primary production and tree mortality in Pseudotsuga menziesii forests of contrasting age S. A. Acker, C. B. Halpern, M. E. Harmon and C. T. Dyrness Tree Physiology 22:213–217 [/url][edit] See also
[/url][edit] External links
Thanks for that information eastern. It was sad to see there is almost no old growth left in the US.
Something I’ve suggested before on this forum and I’ll throw out again is to add a section for the environment and “cyber activism” as part of the site. It’s a topic that keeps coming up and that most people consider important.
Hi Tom,
Nice to hear from you!
I’m a Paulownia convert, and was lucky enough to get a huge stack very cheaply from a neighbour who moved to Perth, enough for about 30 boards.
We are planning to plant a dozen Paulownia trees in out backyard, do you have any growing at your place? They are beautiful trees.
Regards,
Roy
