I am building another two piece board and need to machine the recievers for the buckles. I used some blonde colored ABS last time. Holding up well but heavy. And on the face plates, I used a black ABS. Seems to be holding up, but I am suspicious of the epoxy bond to it.
Is there more than one kind of ABS (other than color)? Is the blonde different from the black? Is there another material like ABS that could be used with a good epoxy bond?
thanks for any input
all the best
what is veil mat? Thx
Greg, I’ve found that all resins seem to stick better to any black plastics better than white or lighter colors. Seems like that with fin boxes, I have less trouble with glass or resin bonding to it. I was told that lighter colors require more pigment hence making them harder and less bondable with resin. Black seems softer. I know I have less problems that way with black longboxes & Future boxes. Also. I think epoxy bonds better than poly. More pics plcs please.
Barry
Hi Greg -
Have you considered laminating about 100-150(?) sheets of fiberglass or carbon fiber and milling the resulting block? You could orient the fibers to approximate vertical or horizontal 'grain' in the block to best fit the application. I'd think the bond to poly or epoxy would be better than ABS plastic.
When bonding plastics such as ABS or PVC using epoxy the glue joint is much stronger if the plastic is first sanded with 80 grit (to add keying grooves) then flame treated with a common propane torch which oxidizes the surface of the plastic increasing the bond strength considerably.
Scroll down to the bottom of the page on this West system bonding plastics link. It explains how to flame treat as well as prep with sandcloth.
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/gluing-plastic-with-g-flex-epoxy/
Notice how wiping down with denatured alcohol before flame treating increases the strength even further.
VH.
PS. You can even try the G-flex glue if you want, but the flaming method works fine with normal epoxy. Try it, you’ll likey.
Oh yeah, I also like the carbon fiber bulk head idea John suggests above. It might be lighter, thinner and no question of bonding.
You’d probably only need 1/8" thickness of carbon and glass
Acrylic Butyl Styrene, not the best choice for bonding to dissimilar materials. Roughed up glass-reinforced PVC is a better choice, but you need to flame or plasma treat it first as previously mentioned. This is about surface tension and wettablility. Put some water on the plastic and see if it beads up. Flame it and then check it. The easier the water will spread the better it will wet and bond. There are some plastic “primers” also, but these are really etching solutions. Check out http://www.loctiteproducts.com/product_advisor/materials/
Here is a useful table in the West website (thx, VH). And I am going to assume that you wipe with alchohol first since that is the order mentioned. Pete, I know you mess around with a lot of materials and bond plastics all the time. The table could be a help.
But laying up my own blocks could be a winner. Thx, John. I need to think through the molding and machining before deciding.
Thx, guys, this has really helped.
Barry, more pictures are here: http://www2.swaylocks.com/forums/another-two-part-travel-board?page=5
It says page 5 but it is really on page 6 about half way down.
**ffectiveness of different surface preparation techniques on the adhesion of G/flex 655 Epoxy to various plastics** |
||
| **Plastic** | **Surface Prep** | **Tensile Adhesion (psi) ** |
| ABS | Sand w/ 80-grit | 1,854 |
| Sand w/ 80-grit + Flame treat | 1,813 | |
| Alcohol wipe + Flame treat | 3,288 | |
| PVC | Sand w/ 80-grit | 1,780 |
| Sand w/ 80-grit + Flame treat | 1,813 | |
| Alcohol wipe + Flame treat | 2,081 | |
| Polyethylene | Sand w/ 80-grit | 400 |
| Sand w/ 80-grit + Flame treat | 1,890 | |
| Alcohol wipe + Flame treat | 2,312 | |
| Polycarbonate | Sand w/ 80-grit | 1,870 |
Here’s a nice option to the big plastic end plates, buy them or make your own.
You’d have to pick out a little of the HD foam around the perimeter and lay in some carbon tow or a mixture of milled carbon and epoxy.
This would eliminate any chance of the carbon skins from delaminating off the foam by bonding both sides together a the cut perimeter.
This place sells all carbon plate but it’s expensive. Approx $135 for 11" x 23" plate in the thickness you’d need.
http://www.cstsales.com/carbon_sandwich_panel.html
You could lay up your own too.
You can also find lighter forms of ABS and PVC. They use it for sign making and it’s less dense than normal,
VH.
Hey Greg, what about G10?
You could probably get away with some 1/8" or so…
Have you tried 2 wood veneers vacced either side of carbon Greg ?..no bonding problem I can see, and should be light…butterfly joins deck and bottom?
Thx Crisp. G10 would have bonding problems since I only use epoxy. And still heavy. Kayu got me thinking about wood. I have really hard oak left from a stair retread project. If I can come up with a way to water proof them on the inside with the bolt goes, I might go with that.
thx for all the ideas guys.
this is a great place to brain storm.
Sand, alcohol wipe, heat treat and the bond using veil mat and epoxy. Mat sticks way better than anything else.
Light (0.5 to 1.5 oz) non woven, use for great finish in molded parts when you don’t want to see weave of woven reinforcement through gelcoat. Increase finish strengh by allowing a thicker coat. You can find carbon veil, glass veil or cheaper polyester veil (cerex or lantor finishmat for exemple).
Sorry for my frenglish
What if you did the plates in a sandwich like Kayu suggested. For the holes, you could drill them oversize, fill them with epoxy / chopped glass, then drill correct size.
Kinda like doing a through the deck leash loop but thinner.
Wood rots. Not the right choice here. If you want a sandwich I would suggest Spherecore or Coremat. Be quite a bit lighter than G10. You could also use cotton flock to secure the hardware. I would prefer that over milled fiber.
Using veil mat in a glue joint or for any bonding increases the bond strength dramatically. I’ve used it to bond to polyethylene with success and nothing sticks to that.
How about a divinycell composite panel,you can do a resin/glass bead around the perimiter of the plate similar to a wood longboard fin. I gave all of my h80 off cuts away when I moved shop otherwise I would mail you some to toy with.
OK, decision. ABS with veil mat for the receivers. Flame treated. I am afraid any foam composite in the reciever will be crushed as I tightent the bolts. For the face plates, I will layup some carbon and veil mat on a sheet of window glass.
Many thanks for all the ideas. This is good place.
…?..personally Greg , I would use wood veneer…and no, it wouldnt rot if used correctly., although choice of timber would be important…just sayin…