Epoxy test...

After a question by Pete re: outrigger canoes, I searched the subject and found this comparison test on different epoxies. Although tested on wood strip panels, in pretty harsh conditions (for a surfboard) the results should be applicable. Thanks to “OneOceanKayaks.comhttp://oneoceankayaks.com/Epoxtest.htm

John: That is some GOOD information. Thank you for the link. Are you using epoxy in your board building? I’m lost on the EPS foam selections and looking for some guidance and notes on supply lines. Thank you. TS>>> After a question by Pete re: outrigger canoes, I searched the subject and > found this comparison test on different epoxies. Although tested on wood > strip panels, in pretty harsh conditions (for a surfboard) the results > should be applicable. Thanks to “OneOceanKayaks.com

John:>>> That is some GOOD information. Thank you for the link. Are you using epoxy > in your board building? I’m lost on the EPS foam selections and looking > for some guidance and notes on supply lines. Thank you.>>> TS John, Ditto. You just convinced me to add a polyester gloss coat to my current epoxy board’s sanding layer. If I were making epoxy sticks to sell I would include a sock with each board. I knew that some epoxies are amber, and that some epoxies come with no UV protection. I made one board with pure Raka epoxy, but melted down the foam during deck lamination. I tossed the board in the yard without coating it, while I worked on making its replacement. The discarded Raka board turned from slightly-tinted to a burnt umber color in two weeks. So now I use epoxy with UV protection. But now your link shows that coated Raka epoxy weathers better than some of the UV protected epoxies. Maybe the UV protectant weakens the cure

I’ve never used epoxy or shaped the styrene blanks. It just looked like a legit test of epoxy resins for those who might be interested. In spite of quite a few years of conventional polyester resin work, I still run into problems now and then that have led me to playing with some UV resin. It seems like a good way to go (thanks to Dave Shepard @BarnBoards!)

Noodle: Are you using blanks from Henry? Epoxy too? or mailorder? I’m going to need a 1.5 gallon kit and was going to order the S2000 kit from Surf Source. TS>>> John,>>> Ditto. You just convinced me to add a polyester gloss coat to my current > epoxy board’s sanding layer. If I were making epoxy sticks to sell I would > include a sock with each board.>>> I knew that some epoxies are amber, and that some epoxies come with no UV > protection. I made one board with pure Raka epoxy, but melted down the > foam during deck lamination. I tossed the board in the yard without > coating it, while I worked on making its replacement. The discarded Raka > board turned from slightly-tinted to a burnt umber color in two weeks.>>> So now I use epoxy with UV protection. But now your link shows that coated > Raka epoxy weathers better than some of the UV protected epoxies. Maybe > the UV protectant weakens the cure

Noodle:>>> Are you using blanks from Henry? Epoxy too? or mailorder? I’m going to > need a 1.5 gallon kit and was going to order the S2000 kit from Surf > Source.>>> TS Tom, Would you have the place at the stop light? Yeah, I buy foam from Fry. He’s gone up over the years. But his blanks are worth the price one at a time. I got busy, but here’s a link to Houston Foam Plastic. They make and sell custom EPS billets in Houston. They seem a little high for wholesale, but you could save several bucks over a few boards by hotwire cutting your own blanks. Then there’s stringer material. Tough to find it in longboard lengths. Even tougher to mill and plane it. Fry’s got a foam brand name with xl zip zap, but I suspect it’s standard 2 lb EPS. Wyman says to get billet density quotes in actual density. Apparently EPS suppliers tend to round up densities, just like glass suppliers round up fabric weights. I have a new 3 gallon kit of the Surf Source epoxy. Haven’t used it yet… We’ll see. http://www.houstonfoam.com/

Stop Light?? I think that their prices are not unreasonable but I’m always bitten by the “do it yourself”. I drove over there yesterday and and met Wayman. He was pretty open to my questions and they put out a quality product. I’m would like to followup on the billets. I’ve got the space, I have access to the stringer material and the required planers to run it through. I have furniture maker’s shop at my disposal and the owner can’t seem to own enough surfboards. I’ll do the math and get back to you on this. I can see some custom rockers on the horizon- :-} Tom>>> Tom,>>> Would you have the place at the stop light?>>> Yeah, I buy foam from Fry. He’s gone up over the years. But his blanks are > worth the price one at a time.>>> I got busy, but here’s a link to Houston Foam Plastic. They make and sell > custom EPS billets in Houston. They seem a little high for wholesale, but > you could save several bucks over a few boards by hotwire cutting your own > blanks. Then there’s stringer material. Tough to find it in longboard > lengths. Even tougher to mill and plane it.>>> Fry’s got a foam brand name with xl zip zap, but I suspect it’s standard 2 > lb EPS. Wyman says to get billet density quotes in actual density. > Apparently EPS suppliers tend to round up densities, just like glass > suppliers round up fabric weights.>>> I have a new 3 gallon kit of the Surf Source epoxy. Haven’t used it yet… > We’ll see.

Stop Light?? If you were, you would know.>>> I think that their prices are not unreasonable but I’m always bitten by > the “do it yourself”. I drove over there yesterday and and met > Wayman. He was pretty open to my questions and they put out a quality > product. I’m would like to followup on the billets. I’ve got the space, I > have access to the stringer material and the required planers to run it > through. I have furniture maker’s shop at my disposal and the owner can’t > seem to own enough surfboards. I’ll do the math and get back to you on > this. I can see some custom rockers on the horizon- :-}>>> Tom In what has become Henry and Wyman’s factory, I have seen MANY more cut blanks than they can possibly be producing boards. I know they sell blanks to board makers. You might wanna ask about volume discounts.

It was definitely a scene out of a sci-fi movie over there. A barrio with a toxic waste atmosphere. I think the corner you refer to was where I stopped to use a phone book. My eyes are still burning from the air over there. Foam billet cost in 10’ length worked out to $30. per slice with waste allowance using a 24" x 48" x 10’ billet from Houston Foam. Still have the cost of stringers and glueup. Probably easier to make the drive for a while and explore the neighborhood. Let me know how the S2000 works for you. One question that I have unanswered: do you lay up multiple layers of cloth when laminating with epoxy, sounds like the viscocity and pot life is a problem in this regard. I’m spoiled with the UV process. Tom>>> If you were, you would know.>>> In what has become Henry and Wyman’s factory, I have seen MANY more cut > blanks than they can possibly be producing boards.>>> I know they sell blanks to board makers. You might wanna ask about volume > discounts.

It was definitely a scene out of a sci-fi movie over there. A barrio with > a toxic waste atmosphere. I think the corner you refer to was where I > stopped to use a phone book. My eyes are still burning from the air over > there. Foam billet cost in 10’ length worked out to $30. per slice with > waste allowance using a 24" x 48" x 10’ billet from Houston > Foam. Still have the cost of stringers and glueup. Probably easier to make > the drive for a while and explore the neighborhood. Let me know how the > S2000 works for you. One question that I have unanswered: do you lay up > multiple layers of cloth when laminating with epoxy, sounds like the > viscocity and pot life is a problem in this regard. I’m spoiled with the > UV process.>>> Tom I too like the UV process. I’m so adamant about monolithic lam jobs that I lay up cotton fabrics under/along with the glass. As you know, epoxy has no tack-dried lam state for staged layups. You would have to sand the print. Lots of laminators add the print between glass layers, adding a slight delamination risk (in my opinion). I’m learning about epoxy lamination temperature ranges and working times. Optimally, a person needs to lam epoxy between 70 and 80 degrees with 30 minute resin. Such a lam job should sit for 24 hours before sanding the rails and lapping. I’m going to test-spray Suncure gloss using an airless sprayer. Maybe it won’t froth as much as when air-sprayed. Only UV resin can allow this process. It gives me enough gel time to evaporate the froth. I’m getting really tired of brush dimples showing up when I sand hotcoats and gloss coats.

I too like the UV process. I’m so adamant about monolithic lam jobs that I Noodle: So, you favor the all for one approach in epoxy lams. Using “S” 4oz in the 4/3 layup schedule that Fry and Co. prescribe? Is it a race to get all of the trapped air bubbles out? (my pet peave) If you are having problems with Silmar in hotcoats and glossing try adding extra Styrene. I have been getting better hotcoat and gloss results by thinning out my resin. Partly due to the infrequency of use and the evaporation of the styrene and also the weather shifts that we are so blessed with down here. I’ve been using 1% styrene in hotcoats and 2%plus in gloss coats. The flow is improved and it cuts down on those pesky brush streaks. tom>>> lay up cotton fabrics under/along with the glass. As you know, epoxy has > no tack-dried lam state for staged layups. You would have to sand the > print. Lots of laminators add the print between glass layers, adding a > slight delamination risk (in my opinion).>>> I’m learning about epoxy lamination temperature ranges and working times. > Optimally, a person needs to lam epoxy between 70 and 80 degrees with 30 > minute resin. Such a lam job should sit for 24 hours before sanding the > rails and lapping.>>> I’m going to test-spray Suncure gloss using an airless sprayer. Maybe it > won’t froth as much as when air-sprayed. Only UV resin can allow this > process. It gives me enough gel time to evaporate the froth. I’m getting > really tired of brush dimples showing up when I sand hotcoats and gloss > coats.

So, you favor the all for one approach in epoxy lams. Using “S” > 4oz in the 4/3 layup schedule that Fry and Co. prescribe? Is it a race to > get all of the trapped air bubbles out? (my pet peave) If you are having > problems with Silmar in hotcoats and glossing try adding extra Styrene. I > have been getting better hotcoat and gloss results by thinning out my > resin. Partly due to the infrequency of use and the evaporation of the > styrene and also the weather shifts that we are so blessed with down here. > I’ve been using 1% styrene in hotcoats and 2%plus in gloss coats. The flow > is improved and it cuts down on those pesky brush streaks.>>> tom I’m using 4/3 layers of 6 oz warp E cloth. I could probably cut back to a 3/2 schedule of 6 oz if I wasn’t worried about board life so much. S cloth is pricey. In my warped way of thinking S doesn’t deliver enough bang for the extra buck. Stronger, but not “that” much stronger. I’ve tried even more styrene in my polyester coats, and still have dimple problems. I’m gonna befoul our environment just for the trial. Yes, with thicker epoxies and colder weather wetout is a problem. That’s why to glass in the right temperatures, with less viscous epoxy. A backup glasser is also helpful. Epoxy pot life really isn’t quite as unpredictable as polyester pot life. If the weather’s going to heat up on lam day, chill the resin in the fridge overnight. Then glass in the morning. The epoxy will mix like molases. Spread it on the glass as the mass starts to heat. The weather will finish warming the spread epoxy, and it will soak in. After you spread the epoxy, the weather will cook it to hardness in short order. Don’t try to squeegee epoxy faster than it wants. You’ll make it froth. If you need to hurry to finish the lam job, the epoxy will be thinning out enough to speed up. Epoxy hardening isn’t as sensitive to mix ratios. It either hardens, or it doesn’t. Epoxy hardening creates heat. Heat makes epoxy go off. Epoxy relies almost entirely on heat, either from its reaction or from its surroundings, to harden. You have to plan your lamination around temperature. I’m sure there’s more that I don’t know about epoxy than what I do know. My last 60 degree lam job left me with bubbles and work. It also weighs more. Live and learn. Now I wouldn’t recommend laminating epoxy at 60 degrees.