I was wanting to take a general consensus on who like what in regards to resin. please say which you like and why you think its superior. there has been alot of argument lately and I want to clear the air, and see both points of view. I am more partial to epoxy because it think is easier to wet out and handle.
This thread has potential to be huge, or for everybody to ignore it.
im going to respond before its huge and people that actually glass their own boards start replying with really long answers.
i go with poly. ive owned two epoxy boards, point blanks. Good and stronger, but it gets kind of yellow, and is impossible to work with. I ended up changing the rails from modern to 50/50 and it took me 4 or 5 times, each time thinking i mixed the hardner with the resin perfectly, and each time i didn’t. epoxy is better with quick fix, the putty is indestructable in comparison to suncure. but for real repairs, id choose fiberglass any day.
if fiberglass is used correctly, meaning thick enough to work as its supposed to, then it works well. i rarely ride a board with less then 2 6oz layers on both the deck and the bottom, so poly holds up fine for me. once you get into riding a board with 1 layer of 4 oz on the deck, you shouldn’t be using poly. im happy to say that i have no desire nor will i ever have a desire to hit the lip.
and thats all.
I got turned to epoxy because people said that the gel time for poly was too unpredictable if you screw up measurements. Epoxy as I was told was like glueing your board together. only problems I had was drip hardening making icecles. Epoxy has to be babied for 4 - 5 hours while it dries. also, it doesnt really need to be squeegeed. it soaks in itself. also, I got an EPS blank as a result of my epoxy choice. It is superlight and durable as hell. I dropped my bard on the garage floor and no dents.
I really hope this thread takes off and becomes a megathread. I would really like to see everyones opinion of resins. all the pros and cons
Mmmmm … which way shall I vote?
Well, if you’re using a styrofoam (polystyrene, EPS, XPS, etc.) blank, there seems to be no alternative to using epoxy. With all the troubles it seems to have, the only real reason to do so may be the cost.
After that, UV cure poly resin wins, hands down, in my garage. I think what I’m using is Silmar 249 as sold by Fiberglass Hawaii in Honolulu. It’s easy to apply, very little waste, $28/gallon, tint-able and pigment-able, virtually unlimited working time, far less expensive than epoxy. Downside is that the shelf life is limited to about 7 months; it’s toxic; the wife complains of the smell (I glass in the garage, it’s upwind of and attached to the house). I guess epoxy can be a little stronger. Too, I’ve been using pu/pe construction since about 1969, and have virtually no experience with epoxy other than teaspoon-sized batches to stick one or another thing together.
I have heard unconfirmed stories of hideous toxicity with epoxy. In fairness, these stories are third hand at best. I’m willing to consider Greg Loehr’s claims of low toxicity, but he will always point out that epoxy is a sensitizer.
i’ll never make another board using poly again. there is just no point… would much rather use something that could “possibly” affect my skin (if i ever got it on me) to something that could give me cancer and help burn down my house… and epoxy is stronger and boards come out with less weight…
the “its not the same” arguments are sooooooooo stupid. people pick up epoxy and expect it work the exact same way as poly. How many times did it take you to get get poly to work for you? once? i doubt it. you have to learn the voodo just like you do with poly…
don’t get all epoxys confused with surfboard spacific epoxys, RR or FGH to name two…
for strong and light (epoxy/EPS Sandwich) I don’t think there’s much of a choice.
you can go strong and heavy with (poly/urethane) but for the same weight in epoxy/urethane you can get something that at least feels stronger.
workability is a wash cause you have to take greater care with how you handle, measure and apply the epoxy but you get a longer work time. If you throw in uv-poly like honolulu did then work time is no comparison but adequate facilities now get factored in and you are back to the strength issue between poly and epoxy at the same glass to resin ratio weight again.
Toxic…
well I’m still alive after getting it all over my skin and hair for the boards I’ve done so far with no allergic reaction developed either but yeah I know I’m pushing it. Probably the same as washing up with acetone or getting catalyst in your eye doing poly.
Yellowing I don’t believe is an issue anymore although I did have that with my Point Blanks Mako but does that really matter in comparison to pressures all over the deck or bottom after 3-4 outings?
In my opinion no…
I’m like jip I don’t think I’d venture back to poly again with the exception of maybe UV. But once you get the hang of epoxy I don’t think you’d go back. I look at JC’s Glassing video and watch the buckets of resin they throw down and then look at my dixie cups of epoxy in comparison and can’t even fathom the waste and encrusted material they are sending off to the local landfill… But again it takes a little time to learn how to use it economically… the glass/epoxy weighing stuff is way beyond me…
How’s the leg JIP?
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Mmmmm ..... which way shall I vote?
Greg your killing me; which way you going?
RR epoxy for sure. None of the toxic fume issues of poly. (I don’t have to worry about my kids walking into the garage while I’m glassing)
Stronger, all the benefits of UV with/out the cancer. Work time, ability to just mix more (no need to plan to leave some in the pot)… Better flow into the glass. Work time…
B.T.W. this topic is throughout the archives… Seems like we discuss this every 2 months…
To me it is sorta a no brainer
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Current epoxies are non-toxic compared to polyester. Long-time fiberglass employees have about a 5% risk of some unusual types of cancers from a combination of styrene and acetone exposure. No cumulative risks from epoxy, and the only risks at all are allergic sensitization (no picnic either, but I don’t think it reaches the same level as death from esophageal cancer).
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Better adhesion, better strength, better glass to resin ratios, no pinholes. All favor epoxy.
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RR epoxy is CLEARER than the clearest polyester resins.
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Poly requires lots of flammable solvents, making hazardous storage an issue.
With epoxy you can have lighter at the same strength, or stronger at the same weight. Better looking.
Now, there are some advantages to poly, too.
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UV or catalyzed poly can be lammed WAY fast.
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Poly can be gloss-coated (shined) more easily
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cheaper
These last three keep many (most) glass shops in the US predominantly using polyester.
With these exceptions I agree with Blakestah.
Is epoxy clearer the poly? No way! 32 layers of Poly is way prettier and clearer tha epoxy, which always give a milky caste after more than 8 or 9 layers of fiberglass laminate.
Cure speed goes to Poly hands down. UV cure is extremely fast in direct sunlight. My epoxy panels with carbon in them will cure very quickly in direct sunlight because the black color absorbs heat, thus curing time is accelerated enourmously.
Really it’s a matter of how much temperature rise you can risk. For fin panels it’s not an issue but it on board because a quick temperature rise during kicking will cause a huge off-gasing problem from the foam unless you want to resurrect Lawrence Welk’s bubble machine when it comes to epoxy stick to working it while the temperature is dropping or very moderate and quite constant. Pin holes can be a problem with either material depending on how carefully the glass is wetted.
When it comes to the glue factor or machining epoxy works the best, but invisible feathering work and the shine prize goes to poly hands down in my book. I use both – no doubt poly is a hell of a lot more dangerous to work with.
Good Waves, Rich
I used to actually enjoy the smell of poly, it was a surfboard making smell. It meant I was having fun, being creative. Lots of guys who dropped in the workshop would say they liked the smell, though they didn’t work with it almost every day.
Now I hate it, actually hate it. It just smells toxic. Maybe I’m sensitised to the styrene.
And after working with epoxy for several years now, I have absolutely no desire to use poly again. I wish I had the understanding and experience of epoxy back when I was making boards for a living.
I’m currently making 4x4 rock crawler hoods and grills etc using epoxy. The poly ones available are heavy and brittle. If they were made lighter they would fall apart pretty quickly, just like a certain item that this forum discusses.
The guys who I make them for cannot believe the weight and flexibility of the epoxy product, and I’ve still left myself lots of leeway to make them lighter if they want.
The only poly product I reluctantly use now is body filler. It’s quick, easy, and it stinks.
Poly. Cuz I’m a cheap bastard and poly is cheaper. Hell, in my early days I used to use cheap boat resin, yeah, the brown stuff! I didn’t care what my boards looked like as long as they worked.
I also have had some bad experiences with epoxy. I must admit though, it was with the earlier crappier foam that soaked up water when dinged. I also didn’t like how they yellowed over time (that’s later, when I did start to care what my boards looked like). I also didn’t like the way they rode. Stiff (no flex) and corky.
At the time (when I was young and liked to shred) I did like the lightness factor but as I’ve gotten older I like some heft to my boards (and no, I don’t ride longboards, exclusively). I like that feeling of momentum when you come off the bottom and heave into your first turn. I like that feeling of danger of trying to hold your edge with a heavy board in heavy surf.
It’s taken me a long time to get to the point where I almost feel like I know what I’m doing and feel comfortable and understand poly and as I only make boards for myself and friends, and friends of friends, it’s just simpler to stick with what I know. I also like the whole “retro” factor of old designs, materials, and methods.
Hell, I’m a photographer too and I still shoot film with my old manual focus Nikon and a Century 650 lens. Other photographers on the beach look at me and wonder what the hell kind of lens it is and I tell 'em, hey, it was state of the art in 1979!
Howzit Halcyon, Since I’m a poly guy I guess that now I’ll have to raise my prices so I can pay myself hazardous pay wages. Aloha,Kokua
Honestly Greg, you’re killing us. so which is it and why? also, I looked through previous posts on this subject. It seems that every 2 months, someone asks a question about either poly or epoxy, followed by ranting and raving aout it. but I still havn’t found a general consensus thread on the pros and cons of the two where they are compared side by side.
Hey Kokua,
It’s been clear to me for a hell of a long time you really know the poly game inside and out. I hope you wearing full protection eyes too. The full operating room garb hat and all is the call for my buddy Ralph Hedrick of New Beginnings Glass Works here in Santa Cruz. It makes complete sense to me.
I do all my lay-up outside and if I have a day with a little breeze blowing I always stand up wind. If I’m goin’ for a poly board like I am on my new Freeline Flounder and Goin semi gun quad I’m letting the pros do it. I just can’t cut the poly lamination scene. Bottom line is I just prefer working with epoxy even though it doesn’t have that beautiful poly gloss.
Keep up the great work mate.
Oh yeah, get a buddy with a digital camera to take some close up shots of you work. I for one would love to see it.
You work merits hazard pay. At least your not working with radon.
Good Waves, Rich
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I still havn't found a general consensus thread on the pros and cons of the two where they are compared side by side.
Sure Greg is a little biased, but I also think he has stated the pros/cons pretty clearly in several different threads.
As to a consensus, you won’t find that because this is nearing one of those religous issues.
But I still enjoy reading the views.
“Testing…” Something strange w/ my poster.
Aloha! I’ve managed to glass nearly 20 boards with R.R. Pretty stoked on the stuff, for sure. I’ve done an array of clears, tints, and opaques. All the problems with doing colored glue have vanished with epoxy. The colored resin dries to a nice hard surface, without stickiness, the color won’t find it’s way onto everything in the shop. Cut laps are not a problem, the lap will actually break at the tape, without cutting. The lack of stink is a major breakthrough. I’ve never had the usual glue intoxication after a long epoxy session, unlike with p.e. I’ve done all these boards with only one and a half quarts of denatured alcohol for solvent, which seems way friendlier than acetone by far. Sanding isn’t too hard either. I’ve been doing my major sanding before I hot coat. A cap and a half of add. f per side. The last two I did was like rubbing out an ‘okay’ gloss coat, 220, 320, and 400. For me, low speed sander and light grit paper work good. I use a few coats of acrylic urethane tile sealer, sponged on, for a killer shine. Just got my friend’s new 9’6" yellow tint gun glossed with regular p.e. and polished, and it is the super pro-style finish. The only minor problems I’ve seen have been tape bleeds, occasional milky spots, and fizzing fin and leash plugs. In regular laminations on p.u. foam it is still dentable, although it is way more snackle-proof. The glue is strong! I find that the R.R. fits my meticulous glassing style perfectly. The stuff is science, and I’m stoked! Aloha…RH
…oh, yeah, and my styro projects are starting to move. Now the fun is really starting, as the horizons get bigger! Aloha…RH
not using poly anymore but if i do use it i only use UV cure.
I just recently finished a balsa composite and did about 6 or so epoxy mixes…when finished, i had a total of 5 drops on the floor…virtually no waste! I dont have to setup a glassing station…no floor coverups…no drama…just mix and apply right on the shaping stands.
For me, the worst part of epoxy is sanding it…the stuff is super hard. But its better than trying to sand a gummy pe hotcoat which always seem to happen to me over here in the heat…disaster recovery work for sure.
Epoxy wins in every other measurement.
I think opinions would be even split if poly wasnt so toxic…really…who the hell wants to purposely bring in dangerous toxic stuff in the home or workplace…