epoxy....

General Discussion
1

well i picked up a 2# eps blank, shaping will be different im sure but by messing around with the obivous scraps it looks like it wont be a big problem at all…

its the glassing thing that gets me, i dont want to sound negative , because believe me i want to be impresed and say “yeah i like this better” but im confused on things even after hearing things personally along with the searching the archives…

so lets get to it … it sounds like the people that are for epoxy say it can be glassed stronger and be lighter, but to me it seems like eps NEEDS to be glassed stronger to equal the strength of a p/u board that has less glass…

i hear 6 bottom 6+6 deck minimum on eps… that sounds like alot to me …

sounds like a lighter/weaker blank with lots more glass to acomplish the same thing as p/u… so if eps is so great why do i have to glass it so heavy?.. i thought the whole idea was lighter and stronger, not weaker and heavy?..

keep in mind i have not glassed with epoxy ,im just putting 2&2 together…but i want to come back and let you know im impressed…

also i hear its easier than poly resin… well, i have never really had a problem with poly being hard to use… sounds like epoxy takes longer , if that computes to being easier to someone… 10-15 min is enough if you ask me, what am i supposed to do during this 25-30 min gel time whith epoxy? work a little, go have a beer , come back and finish it up?

i have enough trouble with being lazy when theres work to be done, i dont need to be standing around babysitting boards waitng for epoxy kick.

i think i have too many questions to ask in one post, but heres another…hotcoating----so i have to wait about 30 min to pull the tape, what…? i must have missed something ,why is it people say epoxy is better? and dont say enviroment…how many millions of years does it take for these eps scraps to decompose…? at least a few million , dont forget this is 2 lb so you could probally add another million to the average strofoam cup.

man that does sound negative, i would rather like it than hate it, but im having a hard time seeing the benifits thats all…

2

shape it ,

photograph it,

glass it,

photograph it ,

surf it ,

photograph it ,

report back here .

have fun with it mate !

…I look forward to reading YOUR personal experiences with it …

cheers ,

ben

p.s. - I can’t answer any of your questions re: eps as I haven’t used it yet . But I hope you have a good time with it .

…and , you can tell I like photos , eh ?!

3

Hmmm…

Forget about searching the archives , look at the top of the discussion page…It’s all there

http://www.swaylocks.com/forum/gforum.cgi?post=242323;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

But for you Mr. Have…

Take that EPS blank back to who ever sold it to you and buy a Walker or a Bennet or a Just Foam or a Midget or…

Or maybe look in the industry section to see what’s up.

You hate EPS / Epoxy and you haven’t even started yet…

Different materials…not better not worse

I’m a backyarder currently working with three different foams and two different resin systems. Are you up for the challenge? It’s all good because surfing is the end goal!

Ray

4

no i dont hate it… thats what i keep saying here and there. i cant hate it yet i havent really tried it, but im about to and i just dont get the catch of where there is any benifit…

i guess i need to start asking the simpe question of to seal a 2 lb. eps blank or not to seal…why and why not…

5

The night owls lurk…

If there is going to be a problem it will be bonding epoxy to epoxy after:

  1. Waiting too long between coats, or…

  2. Glassing in too cold temperatures.

Either one can make for some problems down the road. The actual laminating process is a piece of cake - easier than poly 'cuz you can take your time.

After 30 plus years of glassing with polyester (and having my fair share of problems with that) I tried epoxy and the first board came out great. No problemo. I glossed with poly over sanded epoxy fill coat and it was A-OK. Stoked! Resin research Epoxy stands up to direct sun exposure better than poly IMO.

Epoxy boards number two and three gave me problems due to cold temperatures. I was stoked initially because the resin seemed to cure just fine even though I knew the temps were low. What I didn’t anticipate was the blush issue even with RR Additive F.

Bottom line was I ended up with bonding issues. Even a slight impact left a bubble between the lamination layers along the rails where it delaminated.

Bummer.

Keep temperatures within the recommended range and don’t wait too long between coats and you’ll be OK.

PS… a person “in the know” has suggested (and I obey) that the fill coat be applied as soon as the lam coat can accept a masking tape apron. Don’t flip. Wipe with denatured alcohol and brush on the fill coat. When that fully cures, flip. Grind the rails and overlap area with a coarse disc and lam the other side followed by a fill coat ASAP. When both sides are sanded smooth, gloss. Keep your grubby paw prints off! Handle with gloves on. Use denatured alcohol to wipe down between coats.

I’ve even read that you should use a wire brush attachment on your drill/grinder and scuff the epoxy between coats.

The physical properties of epoxy are better than poly, no doubt. Less VOCs and more durable overall.

There are still some reasons why some people are sticking with poly…

  1. UV cured poly goes off in a matter of minutes.

  2. Poly “laminating” resin can be built up with no time constraints. Even after several days, you can still laminate over cured laminating resin with no alcohol wipe or sanding necessary.

Go ahead and seal with “Fast and Final”, “Patch-N-Paint” spackle or epoxy/micro balloon bog. It doesn’t take much and will leave a smooth surface.

PS - I don’t give a f*** if you have a computer. This is all in the archives.

6

A lot of poly sortboards are 6x4x6. Going to 6x6x6 is not that big of a jump. With PVC, and 6oz, the board will be very strong. About the same weight as a clark with 4x6x4 but much stronger. Strength is in the stringer and in the rail lam. Foam is foam – not strong, not ment to be.

7

shine’s right… no foam is meant to be strong, but I can say that EPS tends to spring back a bit instead of dent, like PU. I think that’s why EPS/epoxy boards don’t delam…which is the biggest flaw with PU, IMO. I can’t tell you how many times I had to do open foam surgery on my decks with Clark foam and 4+4 or even 6+6 poly lams. What a pain in the neck. That’s the beginning of the end for any board. I’ve got EPS/epoxy boards I’ve been riding hard for several YEARS that haven’t shown any signs of delam.

So…yea…shaping will be slightly different, and glassing will be totally different. But in the end, you’ve got a better product.

As for sealing… it depends on the foam. If you’re using a really tight, high quality foam, you don’t really need to seal. Lousy, loose/big beaded foam? Seal it, brother. I go with the micro/epoxy slurry because I’ve experimented with it and it seems to result, for whatever reason, in a better bond between the lam and the foam. It takes longer than spackle, and dosent’ look quite as pretty if you’re doing color (unless you do 2 coats), but I’m more concerned about strength and durability than time. Definately go with spackle if you want to knock it out fast. You’ll still get an excellent bond. Spackle one side, break out the hair dryer, flip and do the other. You’re done in minutes.

8

i dont know i guess ill just have to go back to the live and learn stage…think ill skip the sealing of this first one, if it comes out weighing twice as much as my usual poly boards then maybe ill seal the next one or just skip the eps/epoxy all together…

PS- yes i realise every answer to any question in the world is in the archives. trust me i do use the archives and i think the idea is set up really well…but if you want people to stop asking questions , well that would make for a pretty boring site. i find it best to ask questions, hell people do want to have something to talk about right?

9

I’m no expert but I’d say seal it. If you’re going to do it, do it right, otherwise you’ll really have no basis for a fair comparison. Greg Loehr uses spackle. I used spackle. It’s not a big deal. I glassed my 2lb. EPS with 6-4-4 deck and 6 bottom, super strong and the board is lighter than a poly 6-4 and 4. I’ve been using it since December with no dings, no pressures, just a slight general identation where my knee goes into it when diving.

Try it, you’ll like it.

10

Hey have…another tip…you don’t have to wait to pull tape when hot coating…I sometimes wait and pull the next day(use good tape though 1")…hotcoat …and walk…sealing is a good thing, not manditory…if you lam fast/good the resin will not soak too much…have fun…

*if you have pre-determined in your mind you won’t like it…you won’t…lots of pluses with EPS/Epoxy…use it and see for yourself…

11

Hey - is a surfboard about the building of the thing, or the surfing of the thing?

Nobody gives a crap whether you think its going to be a headache to build or not. Build the best one you can for the way it will surf. Quite a few people are very happy with the surfing performance of epoxy glass over EPS. Since when is the build more important than the result?

12

Hey NJ -

Don’t take it too seriously. It was 3:00 AM and I thought I’d add a little humor. Guess I should skip the comedy circuit?

13

the glass it’s self might be heavier, have, but the resin and foam are lighter than the p/u foam and p/e resin. plus the board will be A lot stronger.

14

well to benny up there, yes to a board builder the process of building is very important…

anyway, i think i will seal the blank, sounds like i will use less resin in the long run, and i have come to the conclusion that that some peoples epoxy boards that weigh twice as much as my poly boards , is likely due to the fact they diddnt seal the blank.

i dont really like the spackle idea though, so i think i will use the epoxy w/ glass bubbles/ballons method…

is this something i can do the whole blank at once? or will i need to do one side, wait 2-3 hours…flip do the other side wait 2-3 hours…

15

the bad news… yes, you have to wait.

the good news… you can speed it up a bit by using fast hardener, and keeping things on the warm side (room, blank, resin mix…) and don’t scrape it ALL off so it’s looking dry. Leave a thin film over the whole board. Don’t be afraid to put some wax paper on your rack and flip as soon as you can handle the board…

This helps somewhat, but really… I usually plan on a good two pints in between sides.

If you’re doing color, you might want to mix in a tiny bit of white pigment (make sure it’s epoxy-compatable pigment) into the slurry.

16

when you say 2 pints in between sides, your talking laminating right? i hope… with this epoxy seal coat it shouldnt take alot right? 8 oz. maybe for a entire shortboard?

i dont know…

also what about that X-55 accelerator…not really sure what this is but i assume its meant to speed things up. speed it up by how much i have no idea… or when in the process its ok to use… i figure its meant to speed up the hotcoat mostly , but maybe it could also be usefull when sealing the blank…? or anything else to dont want to take all day.?

17

sounds like a lighter/weaker blank with lots more glass to acomplish the same thing as p/u… so if eps is so great why do i have to glass it so heavy?

Because #2 eps is lighter density so to get a durable shell you need the additional laminate. BTW, EPS is not great, just different…and cheap…and make’m at home myself…yeah on second thought, eps IS great! Pound for pound, eps has better physicals than pu foam…better strength and memory. EPS doesnt breakup into dust when dented either.

IMO, pupe is fine if youre not concerned with ultralightness or lightness combined with extended long term use. You can make an ultralight pupe but that “rides like new” feel is lost very very fast.

Its about construction balance. Ultralight pu cores dent and fatigue very quickly…combine that with a very light laminate and youre basically relying on the core for the feel…but pu fatigues so quickly the feel is lost in a matter of sessions. PE resin also fatigues fast…much faster than epoxy.

Now, take some of the weight out of the core and put it on the shell/laminate and youve got something more durable at the same or lighter weight. This is what #2 eps/epoxy offers. Also, the higher density eps (#2.5 and #3) give you a closer match to pupe but with much improved durability. Unfortunately, the higher densities are not easy to come by and are pricey.

Continuing further, Surftech takes even more weight out of the core and puts it on the shell with a HD foam cored laminate. Very dent resistant, much slower fatigue, but also yields a stiffer board.

So its safe to assume that density variation plays a major role in the end product in terms of durability, performance and feel.

Clearly define what it is you want from the boards you plan to make, and choose your materials and methods accordingly.

For my personal boards, I prefer a hybrid approach…

PS - Clark commoditized the surfboard blank and they were a major factor in pu foams popularity…

18
Quote:

when you say 2 pints in between sides, your talking laminating right? i hope… with this epoxy seal coat it shouldnt take alot right? 8 oz. maybe for a entire shortboard?

i dont know…

also what about that X-55 accelerator…not really sure what this is but i assume its meant to speed things up. speed it up by how much i have no idea… or when in the process its ok to use… i figure its meant to speed up the hotcoat mostly , but maybe it could also be usefull when sealing the blank…? or anything else to dont want to take all day.?

People use the X-55 for hotcoats but it can be used in any step including lamination.

19

2 pints of BEER, mate! Do one side, have a couple pints, do the other and call it a day!

20

haha…ok now i get it nj…that i can understand.

so what i am figuring is when using epoxy, there really is no additive that when mixed correctly will cause issues between coats, more so than just epoxy itself… which may or may not blush if left to sit too long or used in certain temps.

so, blush is something i will see? i will be able to notice it and get rid of it before moving on? by simply whiping it away with alcohol?

just as i would not laminate a poly board with hotcoat resin, i want to make sure im not going to be doing something to that effect by adding the wrong thing to the mix with epoxy.