There is quite a lot of misinformation on this website about epoxy resins i.e. toxicity, durability and strength, difficulty of use, etc. I believe I have the expertise to answer some of these issues in a dialogue to inform the American surfboard industry the truth about this material. First, Toxicity. Vapor from most epoxies is much lower than it’s polyester counterparts. The resins we produce (Resin Research Epoxies) are all high solids and have 1/50th the vapor of polyester surfboard resins. In our shop (which is well ventilated) we don’t even wear masks. Epoxy is also NOT a carcinogen. That has been well proven by OSHA and many others in industry. What epoxy is, is a skin sensitizer. This varies greatly between different epoxy systems depending on different companies formulations. Most older epoxy hardeners are formulated with a chemical known as TETA or another called DETA. These base hardeners are in the aliphatic amine family, are very reactive, somewhat unstable, quite toxic and easily can cause sensitization of the skin (or dermatitis). Most of these hardeners are also modified with phenol and formaldehyde. Phenol is what dermatologists use for chemical skin peels and increases TETA and DETA’s toxicity to the skin dramatically. Many of these older hardeners are up to 50% phenol. Formaldehyde is also no picnic as it also increases risk because of it’s ability to act as a vehicle for the phenol and amines through the skin and into the blood system. By the way, the reason these epoxy hardeners are still used today is because they’re CHEAP. DETA and TETA cost 1/5 what a modern diamine based hardener costs to produce. Anyone who has worked with many of the West System epoxies are familiar with these low cost systems. Modern epoxy hardeners are nothing like their 60’s counterparts. As I mentioned above, they are formulated with modern diamines and have vastly reduced incidences of sensitization. They also have lower vapor, better color, better finish, and lower exotherm. They contain NO phenol and NO formaldehyde. Our company was one of the first in the US to formulate and market diamine based epoxy hardeners 20 years ago which gives us an edge in experience with these chemicals. As superior as they are they still must be respected as skin sensitizers. The simple way to eliminate problems related to dermatitis in the workplace is to reduce or preferably eliminate contact with the skin. This means gloves. That’s it. We wear disposable vinyl gloves. Vinyl is preferable to rubber because rubber gloves are also skin sensitizers. The other, even more harmful, ingredient is contaminated acetone. Like formaldehyde above it is a vehicle for toxins into the bloodstream. Fortunately epoxy can be cleaned up with soap and water. Not standard bar soap but with products like Go-Jo and Fast Orange. These products are water based and don’t act as a vehicle the way VOC solvents do. In 20 years of producing epoxy surfboards we have NEVER had one incidence of dermatitis in our shop. I have also NEVER seen a case of dermatitis that didn’t have something to do with the co-toxin acetone. Given the aforementioned resin parameters and if shop practice adheres to the above suggestions, epoxy resins are MUCH safer to use for producing surfboards than their polyester counterparts. Second, Strength and Durability. Resins in surfboard laminates have three functions. 1. Keep the fiber in place 2. Keep water from the core. 3. Adhere the laminate to the substraight (mostly foam in surfboards) Epoxies have better adhesive properties. That’s why the’re used in glues. Better adhesive qualities allows higher resin to fiber ratios which translates to better strength to weight ratios in the laminate. In other words it takes less epoxy in a laminate to keep the fiber in place than with polyester. In boats the resin to glass ratio in an epoxy hull is 35% resin to 65% fiber. In a polyester hull preferred ratios are 55% resin to 45% fiber. Put simply, it takes more quantity of an inferior adhesive to do the same job. As the fiber is the main physical structure in a hull skin, epoxy hull weights are significantly less. 25 to 30% lighter. More and more boats are being built of epoxies because hull weight directly effects fuel consumption. The extra cost of today’s epoxy hulls is easily made up by a lower fuel consumption. What this means in a surfboard is a drier (lighter) laminate without sacrificing strength. These better adhesion properties also improve adhesion to the substraight. This reduces delamination and improves break strength regardless of the type of foam being used. Epoxies also have higher elongation to modulus ratios. What this means is that it’s possible to have a stiffer resin without it being brittle. In comparison to polyester surfboard resins this allows that a stiffer board can be made with less denting at a given weight. Or a similar flex pattern to a standard board can be reached with vastly better impact strength. Our company provides two different resins, a high modulus resin (stiff) or a high impact resin (flexible) which can be used with one of three different hardener speeds for differing results. Epoxy resin offers better saturation into fiber bundles in the cloth. This provides better adhesion with the fabric and a more evenly filled weave. This is due to the better capillary action of epoxies due primarily to its high solids configuration. Also because of this high solids configuration epoxies DO NOT suffer from gaps left in the lamination matrix caused by the loss of non solid components (styrene) during the cure cycle as polyesters do. This is a primary cause of osmotic blistering in polyester boat hulls. Remember above that one of the purposes of the resin was to keep water from the core. Epoxies are used exclusively in osmotic blister boat repairs specifically because of their superiority over polyesters in regard to water vapor intrusion. This is an important feature in any waterborne vehicle. Epoxies resist fatigue better. Ever see a sailboard mast made of polyester? How about a bow? Or an airplane wing? The reason you don’t is that epoxy resins are vastly superior in resisting fatigue. What this means in a surfboard is this, that magic board you love will ride better longer. Fatigue is measured by flex cycles. Each time the board is flexed and released, that is one cycle. Epoxy laminates generally measure many times the cycle life of a similarly tested polyester. This combined with strength characteristics are why epoxies are used in nearly all high performance sports equipment today. Only surfboards still use inferior resins. Epoxies have lower density. This means that epoxies are simply lighter than their polyester counterparts. Mixed weight of our epoxy system is 9.2 lbs. per gallon. Polyester resins generally weigh in the 9.7 lbs per gallon range. This isn’t a huge difference in a finished surfboard but technically every ounce counts. Epoxies have a lower absorption rate into the foam. Again because of its high solids configuration and its better adhesion, epoxies don’t tend to drain into the foam like polyester. This saves weight and keeps the resin in the fabric where it belongs. Epoxies can be used with any kind of foam. I know the debate on this website concerning urethane vs. polystyrene. I’m not going to argue the subject here. This is about resins. Epoxies allow you to use any foam you choose. Epoxies make whiter boards. Our epoxy resins are water white and the clearest surfboard resins you can buy. It has been said that our clarity is at the cost of strength. Nothing could be further from the truth. The clarity denotes purity. Purity denotes superior strength. Epoxies are non flammable. Soap and water clean up. Give the local fire marshal a copy of your MSDS, tell him to kiss your ass and get out! No VOC’s (Volatile Organic Compounds) Tell your local EPA to kiss your ass and get out! Bottom line is that we can build an epoxy laminated Clark foam shortboard with equal glass schedule and the resultant product is 1/2 lb. lighter than its polyester laminated counterpart and we actually gain in strength characteristics. And it’s cosmetically whiter in color. We can also increase the amount of glass by 2 ounces per side (this would be, for instance, a 6 ounce bottom and a 6 and 4 ounce deck of epoxy verses a standard polyester 4 ounce bottom and a 4 and 4 ounce deck) which would finish at the same weight with a VERY significant strength advantage. And without fire marshal or EPA interference. Commonly held myths: 1. Epoxy must be heat cured: No. Heat curing can give any thermoset resin certain physical advantages but we don’t require or even suggest that our resins need heat curing. They were designed for room temperature cure. 2. Epoxy’s can’t be produced in production Wrong. Many shops in Florida, Texas and California do production epoxy. With Resin Research’s new fast hardener, production times will be cut in half. We are the first epoxy resin company to offer this new chemistry to the US market. 3. Epoxies yellow faster A piece of history. Our resins today are clearer to start with and yellow at a slower rate than standard surfboard polyesters. 4. Epoxy is hard to laminate New techniques and a new hardener make epoxy no harder or slower to laminate than polyester. 5. Epoxy is more toxic in the workplace Absolutely not. See above. 6. Epoxy is hard to sand A new surfacing agent, Resin Research Additive F, makes hot coats flow and sand paper glide. Simple and inexpensive solution to many former problems. 7. More expensive Expect about a $5 increase in material costs… maybe. I hope this clears up some confusion. I know that perhaps some people out there will disagree but the technology that has evolved through the last 20 years today is not nearly the same animal we started with. Their have been so many advances, many in just the last two years, that it is now far easier to build a superior product. With the threat of imports (molded epoxy) it is perhaps time for the surfing industry to at least familiarize itself with a new technology. Think about it… in the 60’s there were molded boards. Polyester/urethane molded boards. They disappeared because the polyester/urethane custom board was vastly superior. Todays molded boards are finding popularity because of a technological advantage. They’re lighter and stronger. There is nothing the molded guys can do that we can’t provided we match them technologically. In fact they can’t match us. But that means change and I know how hard that can be. But the alterative is not a pretty thought. I’ve made my life of this sport and this industry. I don’t want to see this business go overseas like so many others have. I beleive the custom board is king when technology is equal. But it’s 1975 Detriot and the Japanese have just arrived at Long Beach with freighter full of superior vehicles. And now it’s our turn to answer. Will we? Greg Loehr Resin Research Inc.
Hi Greg!
Hi Greg! Hi Paul. Write me at
It’s ok, there is plenty of miss information about polyester on this website as well (and in my e-mail). Besides, you say your epoxy isn’t this or is that, but doesn’t mean all epoxy is the same as yours. Example, some epoxies are better off heat cured (also speeds up cure) and some epoxy hardeners are more aggressive health wise and some are very safe. There are a ton of guys like you reformulating epoxies coming up with a ton of different products. Very confusing to the consumer, especially when half of the formulators come up with non standard ASTM testing, making tech data sheets hard to compare. Also, no epoxy is not the resin exclusively used for blister repair. I know they have the same backbone, but last I checked VE resins were the #1 seller for blister repair. I just wonder why if you have been re-formulating such a good product for so long, why don’t more people use it? Certainly not due to your in-ability to spin your own product. Maybe because of all the other crap out there (not saying your product is or isnt crap, never seen it here in California). One thing I have noticed on this website is the statement “Where can I find it cheaper?” With the lack of understanding by surfboard makers of epoxy, this is a dangerous statement. Unfortunately surfboard makers use the lowest strength polyester available because it’s clear and easy to use and piece workers don’t like change (personally I think piece works F’d up surfing). Not to worry Greg, you have some help coming in the future, MACT standards (Federally mandated air quality rules) are coming and the current surfboard Otho’s will become illegal to use because of the styrene levels. I think S249A is already illiegal in most of SoCal since July 1st 2002 due to the tough SCACMD rules. All the other industries that used Orthothalic resins have moved on to DCPD’s. Unfortunately (or fortunately for Greg), this won’t work for surboard builders, too brittle and not water clear. I remember Dave at Fiberglass Hawaii telling me that he has had board builders of 20 + years tell him you have to use polystyrene with epoxy, not knowing urethane and epoxy were compatable. I would think this is due to the lack of understanding of both epoxies and polyesters and the media calling polystyrene cored boards “Epoxy” boards. Personally I would rather use the correct epoxy any day over polyester, just for the smell alone. Especially if I was a small board builder. Just an after thought, why does Patagonia use a Shell base resin instead of your resin if it is the best thing for surfboards since Sex Wax. I always thought it was weird such a politically correct company would buy product from big bad Shell. Not that there is much choice on base resins. And guys, stop bathing in acetone. This is stupid!! I have rambled enough, Jono
This could be the best thread to gain some unanswered questions… #1 what is the best epoxy for boards then?? #2 cost is what has kept me away for the most part… Greg you said $5 more per board. every epoxy i have looked at using was going to cost me a lot more then 5 a board more??? #3 health issues has been number one for me… i have had skin problems from just doing a few repairs… I must agree with one thing Jono said piece work screwed up the industry… I want to know more about this… If i can build a better board with epoxy then i need the facts…>>> It’s ok, there is plenty of miss information about polyester on this > website as well (and in my e-mail).>>> Besides, you say your epoxy isn’t this or is that, but doesn’t mean all > epoxy is the same as yours. Example, some epoxies are better off heat > cured (also speeds up cure) and some epoxy hardeners are more aggressive > health wise and some are very safe. There are a ton of guys like you > reformulating epoxies coming up with a ton of different products. Very > confusing to the consumer, especially when half of the formulators come up > with non standard ASTM testing, making tech data sheets hard to compare.>>> Also, no epoxy is not the resin exclusively used for blister repair. I > know they have the same backbone, but last I checked VE resins were the #1 > seller for blister repair.>>> I just wonder why if you have been re-formulating such a good product for > so long, why don’t more people use it? Certainly not due to your > in-ability to spin your own product. Maybe because of all the other crap > out there (not saying your product is or isnt crap, never seen it here in > California). One thing I have noticed on this website is the statement > “Where can I find it cheaper?” With the lack of understanding by > surfboard makers of epoxy, this is a dangerous statement. Unfortunately > surfboard makers use the lowest strength polyester available because it’s > clear and easy to use and piece workers don’t like change (personally I > think piece works F’d up surfing). Not to worry Greg, you have some help > coming in the future, MACT standards (Federally mandated air quality > rules) are coming and the current surfboard Otho’s will become illegal to > use because of the styrene levels. I think S249A is already illiegal in > most of SoCal since July 1st 2002 due to the tough SCACMD rules. All the > other industries that used Orthothalic resins have moved on to DCPD’s. > Unfortunately (or fortunately for Greg), this won’t work for surboard > builders, too brittle and not water clear.>>> I remember Dave at Fiberglass Hawaii telling me that he has had board > builders of 20 + years tell him you have to use polystyrene with epoxy, > not knowing urethane and epoxy were compatable. I would think this is due > to the lack of understanding of both epoxies and polyesters and the media > calling polystyrene cored boards “Epoxy” boards. Personally I > would rather use the correct epoxy any day over polyester, just for the > smell alone. Especially if I was a small board builder.>>> Just an after thought, why does Patagonia use a Shell base resin instead > of your resin if it is the best thing for surfboards since Sex Wax. I > always thought it was weird such a politically correct company would buy > product from big bad Shell. Not that there is much choice on base resins.>>> And guys, stop bathing in acetone. This is stupid!!>>> I have rambled enough,>>> Jono http://surfnwsc.com
Greg Loehr Resin Research Inc. Thank you Greg, This explains it perfectly, I and a buddy of mine just got through sheathing a small (lifeguard style) dory with cloth and epoxy. I was amazed at the pot life about 15 min. when left in the mixing container. Left in the container it would speed up the gel time (generates heat). Once spread out of the pot and on to the hull, I timed it to about half an hour for the epoxy to get too tacky. 6 oz. cloth , totally clear, could not see the cloth when applied. By the way it was nice to work WITHOUT a mask, just cover the skin. The clean up seemed way easy. Sanding seems to be same as polyester. After this experience I am sold on the idea that I can try this on surfboard construction . Any info on your products would be helpfull. Website? Thanks for squelching the rumor mill. Chris
Thanks for the superior writeup, Greg. I’ve never heard of your company Resin Research, but I don’t hang out in the resin industry. Do you have a website? Where can I buy RR epoxy? There are so many epoxy resin formulations now, its hard to say anything about epoxy resin. Mome epoxy makers claiming clarity sell resin that’s only “pretty” clear, and some of the guys advertising UV inhibited epoxy just lie. It would be a mistake for builders to think that sticking to major brands will avoid epoxy pitfalls. It won’t. Combine these facts with some of the myths you mentioned, and switching to epoxy is tough. Board builder reputations depend on the performance of their products. If a brand of epoxy which performs as you say yours does could capture the surfboard market like Silmar did, surfers and builders would start associating epoxy surfboard performance with the properties of Resin Research epoxy. If you could prove the viability of your epoxy formulation by partnering with some board builders, and then advertising your association, it could go a long way toward accomplishing things for you, builders and the custom surfboard industry. I’m curious about RR resin and bicycle applications. Does RR laminate carbon cloth well? Does it adhere to differing metals well through changing temperatures and stresses? In other resin brands, surfboard epoxy is clear-ish, but doesn’t have such good adhesion properties. They sell other darkish epoxy configurations for superior adhesion. But some do adhere quite well.
Jono and Rob, You bring up some really good points. First, you haven’t seen much of our product in California in the past because we haven’t made much effort to market there. We are now opening a manufacturing center in Tucson Az. to handle the West coast. But just for your information, Clyde Beatty is probably the most experienced epoxy manufacturer in Ca. and he has used our resins for over 15 years. Patagonia has used our resins and I don’t know what they currently use, although they still order some from us. We are far and away the resin of choice for an epoxy on the East Coast. Many of our formulas have been knocked off by other companies through the years and there isn’t much we can do about this except for continuing to progress beyond them. This we have done. None has a system that offers the speed of our fast hardener. None offers a slow hardener with a 4 hour pot life either. Not with the clarity, low vapor and generally superior working characteristics ours have. In fact companies like Systems 3 do have a system similar to ours. But it’s more expensive and only comes in one resin modulus and one hardener speed. Ours is two resins and three hardeners. Also NO ONE in the epoxy industry has Additive F. And quite frankly making epoxy surfboards without it is a joke. You’ll work twice as hard and get crappy results. We also have the most experience of any company in formulating epoxies for surf and sailboards … by far. This is because we also make boards. And when you mentioned toxicity as being #1, how do you think I feel about it? I USE the stuff myself! We have the safest system I know of and the techniques to use it safely as well. WE developed the original resins 20 years ago for surfboards and WE developed most the techniques to use them. NOT Patagonia. NOT Systems 3. NOT Shell. You mentioned that there are many epoxy systems on the market and it’s confusing to the customer. Your absolutely right. There is SOOO much CRAP on the market it’s unbelievable. And most of it is toxic as hell. Terrible thing about most business in this world, bottom line means everything. Profits are king. Who cares if someone gets sick. Long as we make our money. Our system comes straight out of our experience in making boards in our shop. And prices? You mentioned how expensive epoxies are. We use 1/3 the resin most polyester shops use per board. About 36 oz. on a shortboard. Our resin, bought by the drum, runs under $30 per gallon which makes us comparable with polyesters. On heat curing, again we don’t require that at all. There are advantages but there are also advantages to heat curing polyesters. Fact is most shops aren’t set up to do this so we formulated the resin so it’s not really necessary. ASTM testing, in case you haven’t noticed is kind of a joke anyway. Like you said, no one uses the same tests and all the samples are prepared in labs under controlled conditions anyway. I use chemicals from literally all over the world. I do my own testing in house. That’s the only way I’ve gotten this far. I agree with you on the piece worker issue too. But that’s the way it is. And as far as CHEAPER, there was a time when BETTER meant more to board builders. Someone wake everyone up and tell them that the molded epoxy boards are some of the most expensive boards on the market and their getting their price. Because there giving a strength to weight ratio that the polyester board builder can’t touch. And on acetone. We don’t use it. NOT ANY! For 10 years. Soap and water clean up. In our shop VOC solvents are a dead issue. > This could be the best thread to gain some unanswered questions… #1 what > is the best epoxy for boards then?? #2 cost is what has kept me away for > the most part… Greg you said $5 more per board. every epoxy i have looked > at using was going to cost me a lot more then 5 a board more??? #3 health > issues has been number one for me… i have had skin problems from just > doing a few repairs…>>> I must agree with one thing Jono said piece work screwed up the industry…>>> I want to know more about this… If i can build a better board with epoxy > then i need the facts…
Jono and Rob and others, You bring up some really good points. First, you haven’t seen much of our product in California in the past because we haven’t made much effort to market there. We are now opening a manufacturing center in Tucson Az. to handle the West coast. But just for your information, Clyde Beatty is probably the most experienced epoxy manufacturer in Ca. and he has used our resins for over 15 years. Patagonia has used our resins and I don’t know what they currently use, although they still order some from us. We are far and away the resin of choice for an epoxy on the East Coast. Many of our formulas have been knocked off by other companies through the years and there isn’t much we can do about this except for continuing to progress beyond them. This we have done. None has a system that offers the speed of our fast hardener. None offers a slow hardener with a 4 hour pot life either. Not with the clarity, low vapor and generally superior working characteristics ours have. In fact companies like Systems 3 do have a system similar to ours. But it’s more expensive and only comes in one resin modulus and one hardener speed. Ours is two resins and three hardeners. Also NO ONE in the epoxy industry has Additive F. And quite frankly making epoxy surfboards without it is a joke. You’ll work twice as hard and get crappy results. We also have the most experience of any company in formulating epoxies for surf and sailboards … by far. This is because we also make boards. And when you mentioned toxicity as being #1, how do you think I feel about it? I USE the stuff myself! We have the safest system I know of and the techniques to use it safely as well. WE developed the original resins 20 years ago for surfboards and WE developed most the techniques to use them. NOT Patagonia. NOT Systems 3. NOT Shell. You mentioned that there are many epoxy systems on the market and it’s confusing to the customer. Your absolutely right. There is SOOO much CRAP on the market it’s unbelievable. And most of it is toxic as hell. Terrible thing about most business in this world, bottom line means everything. Profits are king. Who cares if someone gets sick. Long as we make our money. Our system comes straight out of our experience in making boards in our shop. And prices? You mentioned how expensive epoxies are. We use 1/3 the resin most polyester shops use per board. About 36 oz. on a shortboard. Our resin, bought by the drum, runs under $30 per gallon which makes us comparable with polyesters. On heat curing, again we don’t require that at all. There are advantages but there are also advantages to heat curing polyesters. Fact is most shops aren’t set up to do this so we formulated the resin so it’s not really necessary. ASTM testing, in case you haven’t noticed is kind of a joke anyway. Like you said, no one uses the same tests and all the samples are prepared in labs under controlled conditions anyway. I use chemicals from literally all over the world. I do my own testing in house. That’s the only way I’ve gotten this far. I agree with you on the piece worker issue too. But that’s the way it is. And as far as CHEAPER, there was a time when BETTER meant more to board builders. Someone wake everyone up and tell them that the molded epoxy boards are some of the most expensive boards on the market and their getting their price. Because there giving a strength to weight ratio that the polyester board builder can’t touch. And on acetone. We don’t use it. NOT ANY! For 10 years. Soap and water clean up. In our shop VOC solvents are a dead issue. And on use with carbon fiber our 200 resin is top notch for a room temp cure epoxy. For bonding to metal 2020 resin is probably going to give the best results.>>> It’s ok, there is plenty of miss information about polyester on this > website as well (and in my e-mail).>>> Besides, you say your epoxy isn’t this or is that, but doesn’t mean all > epoxy is the same as yours. Example, some epoxies are better off heat > cured (also speeds up cure) and some epoxy hardeners are more aggressive > health wise and some are very safe. There are a ton of guys like you > reformulating epoxies coming up with a ton of different products. Very > confusing to the consumer, especially when half of the formulators come up > with non standard ASTM testing, making tech data sheets hard to compare.>>> Also, no epoxy is not the resin exclusively used for blister repair. I > know they have the same backbone, but last I checked VE resins were the #1 > seller for blister repair.>>> I just wonder why if you have been re-formulating such a good product for > so long, why don’t more people use it? Certainly not due to your > in-ability to spin your own product. Maybe because of all the other crap > out there (not saying your product is or isnt crap, never seen it here in > California). One thing I have noticed on this website is the statement > “Where can I find it cheaper?” With the lack of understanding by > surfboard makers of epoxy, this is a dangerous statement. Unfortunately > surfboard makers use the lowest strength polyester available because it’s > clear and easy to use and piece workers don’t like change (personally I > think piece works F’d up surfing). Not to worry Greg, you have some help > coming in the future, MACT standards (Federally mandated air quality > rules) are coming and the current surfboard Otho’s will become illegal to > use because of the styrene levels. I think S249A is already illiegal in > most of SoCal since July 1st 2002 due to the tough SCACMD rules. All the > other industries that used Orthothalic resins have moved on to DCPD’s. > Unfortunately (or fortunately for Greg), this won’t work for surboard > builders, too brittle and not water clear.>>> I remember Dave at Fiberglass Hawaii telling me that he has had board > builders of 20 + years tell him you have to use polystyrene with epoxy, > not knowing urethane and epoxy were compatable. I would think this is due > to the lack of understanding of both epoxies and polyesters and the media > calling polystyrene cored boards “Epoxy” boards. Personally I > would rather use the correct epoxy any day over polyester, just for the > smell alone. Especially if I was a small board builder.>>> Just an after thought, why does Patagonia use a Shell base resin instead > of your resin if it is the best thing for surfboards since Sex Wax. I > always thought it was weird such a politically correct company would buy > product from big bad Shell. Not that there is much choice on base resins.>>> And guys, stop bathing in acetone. This is stupid!!>>> I have rambled enough,>>> Jono
Hey Greg, I’m using an epoxy that I get from Fiberglass Hawaii that is called Aluzine in my custom fin construction. The stuff sure is a lot stiffer than Poly. I really like the way it handles. The hardener is much less viscous and quite clear. Thus the consistency of the two-part mix wets out glass and carbon fiber beautifully and the end result isn’t so yellow as it was with the thick yellowish hardener, which was very temperature sensitive and hard to work with. Where does Aluzine fit into the big picture with all the other Epoxy products? Does it have a particular application? I notice the stuff gets pretty hot (almost smokin’) when it goes off sometimes. Your in depth discourse on epoxy is appreciated. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, on the other hand it can open many new doors. Mahalo, Rich
When more surfboard companies find out about the advances that have been made in just the past two years, concerning resins, additives and foam, there will be far more interest and far more movement on the epoxy board front. Believe it or not many surfboard manufacturers DO want to make a better product. Many American companies DO care and take incredible pride in their work. The emergence of product that eclipses the strength and weight of the standard surfboard coming from overseas has been a real shock to the American industry. A shock that many would like to answer. Noodle-Resin Research epoxies are available by calling 321-223-5276 or 321-779-2369.>>> Thanks for the superior writeup, Greg. I’ve never heard of your company > Resin Research, but I don’t hang out in the resin industry. Do you have a > website? Where can I buy RR epoxy?>>> There are so many epoxy resin formulations now, its hard to say anything > about epoxy resin. Mome epoxy makers claiming clarity sell resin that’s > only “pretty” clear, and some of the guys advertising UV > inhibited epoxy just lie. It would be a mistake for builders to think that > sticking to major brands will avoid epoxy pitfalls. It won’t.>>> Combine these facts with some of the myths you mentioned, and switching to > epoxy is tough. Board builder reputations depend on the performance of > their products. If a brand of epoxy which performs as you say yours does > could capture the surfboard market like Silmar did, surfers and builders > would start associating epoxy surfboard performance with the properties of > Resin Research epoxy. If you could prove the viability of your epoxy > formulation by partnering with some board builders, and then advertising > your association, it could go a long way toward accomplishing things for > you, builders and the custom surfboard industry.>>> I’m curious about RR resin and bicycle applications. Does RR laminate > carbon cloth well? Does it adhere to differing metals well through > changing temperatures and stresses? In other resin brands, surfboard epoxy > is clear-ish, but doesn’t have such good adhesion properties. They sell > other darkish epoxy configurations for superior adhesion. But some do > adhere quite well.
When more surfboard companies find out about the advances that have been > made in just the past two years, concerning resins, additives and foam, > there will be far more interest and far more movement on the epoxy board > front. Believe it or not many surfboard manufacturers DO want to make a > better product. Many American companies DO care and take incredible pride > in their work. The emergence of product that eclipses the strength and > weight of the standard surfboard coming from overseas has been a real > shock to the American industry. A shock that many would like to answer. > Noodle-Resin Research epoxies are available by calling 321-223-5276 or > 321-779-2369. My question is, can you glass a polyurethane blank with epoxy resin?
Hi, don’t most resins nowadays come with a bunch of hardeners? The epoxy I ended up using came with hardeners ranging from 15 to 120 minutes of working time. They also have a thinner which they call “a solvent free, reactive thinner”. It pretty runny and shows no signs of yellowing so far. Even west systems comes with atleast 3 hardeners. So what’s the big difference between your resin and a ‘generic’ resin? Bdw. I liked the explanations on epoxy. I’ve heard good things about your boards both in this forum and elsewhere. $30 pr. gallon is a really good price, but shipping to Norway is killer im afraid. regards, Håvard
Just one more thing… I’ve heard some rumours that there are only a few epoxy resin plants in the world and that most epoxies are produced in the same plants with only minor modifications to the formulas. This was said to be because setting up a plant to produce epoxy was complicated and expensive. Any comments? regards, Håvard
Greg, I’ve used your epoxy a couple of years ago but had problems with the hot coat pealing off the glass. Does your new sanding additive solve this problem? Some people have used polyester resins for a hot coat for this very reason. Also, can you use tints in epoxy? Thank you for the information.
Just one more thing…>>> I’ve heard some rumours that there are only a few epoxy resin plants in > the world and that most epoxies are produced in the same plants with only > minor modifications to the formulas. This was said to be because setting > up a plant to produce epoxy was complicated and expensive.>>> Any comments?>>> regards,>>> Håvard Resolution (Shell), Dow, Ciba and Air Products are the main sources. There are only a few sources for the base products and hardeners, however there are also a lot of additives also made and the products can be blended for different effects. Guys like Greg are like chefs buying there produce, meat, ect. from the same source. It is what you do with these ingredients that makes the difference between a crappy chef and a good chef. The way we make surfboards is actually a fairly unique in the composite world, kind of like plug making. A lot of applications, base resins and hardeners are just fine. Probably not the case for surfboards. Jono
There is quite a lot of misinformation on this website about epoxy resins > i.e. toxicity, durability and strength, difficulty of use, etc. I believe > I have the expertise to answer some of these issues in a dialogue to > inform the American surfboard industry the truth about this material. > First, Toxicity. Vapor from most epoxies is much lower than it’s polyester > counterparts. The resins we produce (Resin Research Epoxies) are all high > solids and have 1/50th the vapor of polyester surfboard resins. In our > shop (which is well ventilated) we don’t even wear masks. Epoxy is also > NOT a carcinogen. That has been well proven by OSHA and many others in > industry. What epoxy is, is a skin sensitizer. This varies greatly between > different epoxy systems depending on different companies formulations. > Most older epoxy hardeners are formulated with a chemical known as TETA or > another called DETA. These base hardeners are in the aliphatic amine > family, are very reactive, somewhat unstable, quite toxic and easily can > cause sensitization of the skin (or dermatitis). Most of these hardeners > are also modified with phenol and formaldehyde. Phenol is what > dermatologists use for chemical skin peels and increases TETA and DETA’s > toxicity to the skin dramatically. Many of these older hardeners are up to > 50% phenol. Formaldehyde is also no picnic as it also increases risk > because of it’s ability to act as a vehicle for the phenol and amines > through the skin and into the blood system. By the way, the reason these > epoxy hardeners are still used today is because they’re CHEAP. DETA and > TETA cost 1/5 what a modern diamine based hardener costs to produce. > Anyone who has worked with many of the West System epoxies are familiar > with these low cost systems. Modern epoxy hardeners are nothing like their > 60’s counterparts. As I mentioned above, they are formulated with modern > diamines and have vastly reduced incidences of sensitization. They also > have lower vapor, better color, better finish, and lower exotherm. They > contain NO phenol and NO formaldehyde. Our company was one of the first in > the US to formulate and market diamine based epoxy hardeners 20 years ago > which gives us an edge in experience with these chemicals. As superior as > they are they still must be respected as skin sensitizers. The simple way > to eliminate problems related to dermatitis in the workplace is to reduce > or preferably eliminate contact with the skin. This means gloves. That’s > it. We wear disposable vinyl gloves. Vinyl is preferable to rubber because > rubber gloves are also skin sensitizers. The other, even more harmful, > ingredient is contaminated acetone. Like formaldehyde above it is a > vehicle for toxins into the bloodstream. Fortunately epoxy can be cleaned > up with soap and water. Not standard bar soap but with products like Go-Jo > and Fast Orange. These products are water based and don’t act as a vehicle > the way VOC solvents do. In 20 years of producing epoxy surfboards we have > NEVER had one incidence of dermatitis in our shop. I have also NEVER seen > a case of dermatitis that didn’t have something to do with the co-toxin > acetone. Given the aforementioned resin parameters and if shop practice > adheres to the above suggestions, epoxy resins are MUCH safer to use for > producing surfboards than their polyester counterparts. Second, Strength > and Durability. Resins in surfboard laminates have three functions. 1. > Keep the fiber in place 2. Keep water from the core. 3. Adhere the > laminate to the substraight (mostly foam in surfboards) Epoxies have > better adhesive properties. That’s why the’re used in glues. Better > adhesive qualities allows higher resin to fiber ratios which translates to > better strength to weight ratios in the laminate. In other words it takes > less epoxy in a laminate to keep the fiber in place than with polyester. > In boats the resin to glass ratio in an epoxy hull is 35% resin to 65% > fiber. In a polyester hull preferred ratios are 55% resin to 45% fiber. > Put simply, it takes more quantity of an inferior adhesive to do the same > job. As the fiber is the main physical structure in a hull skin, epoxy > hull weights are significantly less. 25 to 30% lighter. More and more > boats are being built of epoxies because hull weight directly effects fuel > consumption. The extra cost of today’s epoxy hulls is easily made up by a > lower fuel consumption. What this means in a surfboard is a drier > (lighter) laminate without sacrificing strength. These better adhesion > properties also improve adhesion to the substraight. This reduces > delamination and improves break strength regardless of the type of foam > being used. Epoxies also have higher elongation to modulus ratios. What > this means is that it’s possible to have a stiffer resin without it being > brittle. In comparison to polyester surfboard resins this allows that a > stiffer board can be made with less denting at a given weight. Or a > similar flex pattern to a standard board can be reached with vastly better > impact strength. Our company provides two different resins, a high modulus > resin (stiff) or a high impact resin (flexible) which can be used with one > of three different hardener speeds for differing results. Epoxy resin > offers better saturation into fiber bundles in the cloth. This provides > better adhesion with the fabric and a more evenly filled weave. This is > due to the better capillary action of epoxies due primarily to its high > solids configuration. Also because of this high solids configuration > epoxies DO NOT suffer from gaps left in the lamination matrix caused by > the loss of non solid components (styrene) during the cure cycle as > polyesters do. This is a primary cause of osmotic blistering in polyester > boat hulls. Remember above that one of the purposes of the resin was to > keep water from the core. Epoxies are used exclusively in osmotic blister > boat repairs specifically because of their superiority over polyesters in > regard to water vapor intrusion. This is an important feature in any > waterborne vehicle. Epoxies resist fatigue better. Ever see a sailboard > mast made of polyester? How about a bow? Or an airplane wing? The reason > you don’t is that epoxy resins are vastly superior in resisting fatigue. > What this means in a surfboard is this, that magic board you love will > ride better longer. Fatigue is measured by flex cycles. Each time the > board is flexed and released, that is one cycle. Epoxy laminates generally > measure many times the cycle life of a similarly tested polyester. This > combined with strength characteristics are why epoxies are used in nearly > all high performance sports equipment today. Only surfboards still use > inferior resins. Epoxies have lower density. This means that epoxies are > simply lighter than their polyester counterparts. Mixed weight of our > epoxy system is 9.2 lbs. per gallon. Polyester resins generally weigh in > the 9.7 lbs per gallon range. This isn’t a huge difference in a finished > surfboard but technically every ounce counts. Epoxies have a lower > absorption rate into the foam. Again because of its high solids > configuration and its better adhesion, epoxies don’t tend to drain into > the foam like polyester. This saves weight and keeps the resin in the > fabric where it belongs. Epoxies can be used with any kind of foam. I know > the debate on this website concerning urethane vs. polystyrene. I’m not > going to argue the subject here. This is about resins. Epoxies allow you > to use any foam you choose. Epoxies make whiter boards. Our epoxy resins > are water white and the clearest surfboard resins you can buy. It has been > said that our clarity is at the cost of strength. Nothing could be further > from the truth. The clarity denotes purity. Purity denotes superior > strength. Epoxies are non flammable. Soap and water clean up. Give the > local fire marshal a copy of your MSDS, tell him to kiss your ass and get > out! No VOC’s (Volatile Organic Compounds) Tell your local EPA to kiss > your ass and get out! Bottom line is that we can build an epoxy laminated > Clark foam shortboard with equal glass schedule and the resultant product > is 1/2 lb. lighter than its polyester laminated counterpart and we > actually gain in strength characteristics. And it’s cosmetically whiter in > color. We can also increase the amount of glass by 2 ounces per side (this > would be, for instance, a 6 ounce bottom and a 6 and 4 ounce deck of epoxy > verses a standard polyester 4 ounce bottom and a 4 and 4 ounce deck) which > would finish at the same weight with a VERY significant strength > advantage. And without fire marshal or EPA interference. Commonly held > myths: 1. Epoxy must be heat cured: No. Heat curing can give any thermoset > resin certain physical advantages but we don’t require or even suggest > that our resins need heat curing. They were designed for room temperature > cure. 2. Epoxy’s can’t be produced in production Wrong. Many shops in > Florida, Texas and California do production epoxy. With Resin Research’s > new fast hardener, production times will be cut in half. We are the first > epoxy resin company to offer this new chemistry to the US market. 3. > Epoxies yellow faster A piece of history. Our resins today are clearer to > start with and yellow at a slower rate than standard surfboard polyesters. > 4. Epoxy is hard to laminate New techniques and a new hardener make epoxy > no harder or slower to laminate than polyester. 5. Epoxy is more toxic in > the workplace Absolutely not. See above. 6. Epoxy is hard to sand A new > surfacing agent, Resin Research Additive F, makes hot coats flow and sand > paper glide. Simple and inexpensive solution to many former problems. 7. > More expensive Expect about a $5 increase in material costs… maybe.>>> I hope this clears up some confusion. I know that perhaps some people out > there will disagree but the technology that has evolved through the last > 20 years today is not nearly the same animal we started with. Their have > been so many advances, many in just the last two years, that it is now far > easier to build a superior product. With the threat of imports (molded > epoxy) it is perhaps time for the surfing industry to at least familiarize > itself with a new technology. Think about it… in the 60’s there were > molded boards. Polyester/urethane molded boards. They disappeared because > the polyester/urethane custom board was vastly superior. Todays molded > boards are finding popularity because of a technological advantage. > They’re lighter and stronger. There is nothing the molded guys can do that > we can’t provided we match them technologically. In fact they can’t match > us. But that means change and I know how hard that can be. But the > alterative is not a pretty thought. I’ve made my life of this sport and > this industry. I don’t want to see this business go overseas like so many > others have. I beleive the custom board is king when technology is equal. > But it’s 1975 Detriot and the Japanese have just arrived at Long Beach > with freighter full of superior vehicles. And now it’s our turn to answer. > Will we?>>> Greg Loehr Resin Research Inc. I had Greg at the factory after the Long Beach show, I’ve know Greg for almost 30 years and he speaks the truth. Of all the epoxy builders, he has dug deeper into what it takes to use epoxy to the fullest. If you ever have an epoxy question, Greg with help you out.
Thanks for all this info. Yet one more question… Is there, or might there be in the future, a UV curing type of epoxy resin for surfboards? The extended working time and quick set-up of solarez & suncure are very helpful to me as I’m not in a production setting, and, I’ll admit, I’m not any expert in the use of MEKP. The flash it and flip it gets me out of the shed a lot faster and if this could be accomplished with a non- toxic, easier on-the-nose product, it would help keep the neighbors much happier too. Thanks again, Eric J>>> Greg Loehr Resin Research Inc.
Greg, I’ve used your epoxy a couple of years ago but had problems with the > hot coat pealing off the glass. Does your new sanding additive solve this > problem? Some people have used polyester resins for a hot coat for this > very reason. Also, can you use tints in epoxy? Thank you for the > information. In certain kinds of weather we always had problems such as this. Cold and damp. Additive F solved all these problems and gave us better hot coats that sand much easier. We now use it in laminations as well and although it is a surfacing agent it is formulated to accept further coats without sanding. We’ve had this stuff for about a year and keep finding new ways it helps. Also most standard pigment disperions work in epoxy
Hi,>>> don’t most resins nowadays come with a bunch of hardeners? The epoxy I > ended up using came with hardeners ranging from 15 to 120 minutes of > working time. They also have a thinner which they call “a solvent > free, reactive thinner”. It pretty runny and shows no signs of > yellowing so far. Even west systems comes with atleast 3 hardeners. So > what’s the big difference between your resin and a ‘generic’ resin?>>> Bdw. I liked the explanations on epoxy. I’ve heard good things about your > boards both in this forum and elsewhere. $30 pr. gallon is a really good > price, but shipping to Norway is killer im afraid.>>> regards,>>> Håvard Many resins today do come with more than one. But not UV stable, water white, low vapor ones. What I look for in epoxies to determand quality is: correct viscosity, good color, clarity, UV stability, versatility (Different hardener speeds and different resin modulus’), low exotherm, low vapor, no phenols, no formaldahydes, no ethers, good finish, low blush, good flow charateristics, correct modulus, high strength, high barcol hardness, and a few more I can’t think of now. It’s always a balance of features that make it right for the end user. Above I wrote that we have the most experience of any epoxy producer “at surfboard epoxy formulations.” I just thought of sixteen different qualities to look for in a surfboard epoxy, and that’s off the top of my head. If I didn’t make boards I wouldn’t know half of those and I wouldn’t know the real significance of the ones I was aware of. Beleive it or not there is not another test subject like surfboards on the planet. What other product made out of composite breaks down at the rate of a surfboard? Not boats. They have a cycle time of over 20 years. Not planes. They NEVER want a failure. Because of surfboards short cycle time, surfboard builders learn very fast what is breaking down in their product. As a result there are actually things we know that even the aerospace guys don’t. Beleive it or not!