Transworld Surf Business has this article up right now from FCS.
Very interesting it is…
http://www.twsbiz.com/twbiz/industrynews/article/0,21214,1122834,00.html
The new fins from this new material are an improvement. You really can feel the memory in them, and feel them snap back during a turn. No more mushy feeling turns, just drive, crisp response, a little flex, and sometimes even a little twang release = overall faster & more drivey.
And, how about the new F.C.S. plugs [in the board] ? Has anyone here installed them yet ?
Cecil
I applaud FCS for their new “Fiber Flex” material and M Series foils. Although, they are strikingly similar to Futures Vector foils and Our Next Generation material only with less glass content. As far as their new improved plugs, they are still stuck in the easiest way to install mode. Catering to the “it’s so easy anyone can do it way of thinking.” So, they compromise strength, stability and adjustability to get the easy install. These new design features are improvements over their orignal system. But, would they have made these improvements if it weren’t for competition from systems that might be more specialized to install. But, have better performance characteristics. I just wonder.
Howzit tom, They gave me a bunch of the new plugs to try but my jigs won't fit in them, hopefully they will give us the new metal jigs I hear they are making. Mitch told me your co will be making the fins for their ProBox set up, that's great and I think it's a win/win situation for both companies. Can't wait to see them since the ProBox systems are really coming on over here,just did 3 boards with them and one of my shapers is switching over to them and my other shaper recommends them to his customers. I just might have to sell off some of my FCS sets if most of the boards I do get ProBoxes. Mitch and Robin are great guys and I'm glad you got the work.Aloha,Kokua
I’ve installed about a dozen sets. Didn’t have any problems with using old jigs. They look good, are lighter, and fill with resin a little easier but nothing to get real excited about. Looks like fcs has a new stick on jig that helps with marking the holes and creats a resin dam.
Forgive me for sounding cynical BUT where in that document does it say how much glass content is in the new material? How much is supposedly in your far superior material?
The local rep here showed me a demonstration with the base flex in the new plug as you mention and to be honest the old and new plug were vastly different. In fact very very close to a glass on. Big call but founded. The ease of installation also equals the ease of repair, at home and away (on boats in Indo etc) and for what it’s worth and from any other system I have tried it’s either glass on or FCS only. I am sick of having holidays in remote places ruined by some system that was the latest thing a year ago and now doesnt even exist.
Sorry to dump on you but this is reality from where I am sitting.
I have surfed vectors and they hummed and made me surf differently, these feel to me as good as any glass fin I have used.
yea im gonna step up and say they have some great new stuff ,both the new fins and plugs are a vast improvement , and they readily acknowledge that other fin companies have put pressure on them to step up and refine the product …
when you look at the areas theve refined , it was all the areas that people historically complained were the failings of the system …
fins to flexy …
not enough base stability , both due to flexing material and a loose fit in the plugs …
hair line cracks around the plugs due to resin shrinkage …
the bond of resin to the plugs …
all of these issues have been solved …
unfortunatly , i personally still dont get to try them as all the fins are built for midgets…
a few things ive noticed in working with the new plugs …
they sand a lot easier and dont generate as much heat if you rip them down hard …
2 negatives …
because more resin is used and the volume of resin is more concentrated because of the ribs , more heat gets generated , so its something to watch out for …
ive seen some brown outs and expanded foam on the decks with exactly the same brew as the old plugs which didnt do it …
the other one is a few more open bubbles in the resin surrounding the plug , because there is more of a chance of air getting trapped between the ribs , as the bubble rises out the resin sets at the same time …
this issue has been resolved by doing the pour from one side …
i think they are doing well by responding to the market …
i asked about the foil range , but as my requests arent mainstream and would only apply to a small percentage of the market , its not a viable option for them to develop yet , as they are more market driven than development driven (based on the products that never made it to market )
im claiming that they will do well , as the board builders favour the easy installs , and most guys in the industry were getting torn between complaints from customers about the old fcs and the ease of installation of fcs in comparison to other more solid systems …
i think the improvements will be enough for most board builders to get back on the program , mainly by talking there customers out of harder to install systems …
even tho im not a fan of the foil range , im still going to give them the thumbs up for moving in the right direction and improving the system on a number of levels …
regards
BERT
a red board with blue plugs …
a yellow board with red plugs …
a red board with red plugs …
a blue board with blue plugs …
my next fish will get ONE of these
ben
I don’t make Vector fins. I just said the foiling on the M-series is similar to what Future fins is doing with their Vector Fins. I agree Vectors are only efficient in relatively low to medium flow applications.
I make fins for Red X, LokBox and 4-Way fins. Each give you options you’ll never get from FCS. And, since my occupation is designing and making injection molded fins, I believe I can state with reasonable authority that when I see and feel a plasic part, I can tell the glass content. The material I’m currently making Next Generations Foils with is 60% glass filled. The content I saw in the fins at ASR was some around 40% or lower in the Fiber Flex fins. Maybe you took it as sarcasm, but, I did say that I thought the move to this new material was a good thing. I know the material we are using, is allowing me to make foil variations that were to flexy in glass filled nylon.
And, yes Polycarbonate is vastly superior to PVC. But, Isoplast is far superior to polycarbonate in flexural modulus, impact and tensile strength. Come by any time with a set of the new FCS plugs and I’ll provide the sledge hammer and a Red X box. You can check for yourself which is stronger. A properly installed Red X box does a far better job of transfering the torque from the tip of the fins throughout the tail of your board.
There are better products available. They just aren’t being Hyped as hard.
I still don’t like the two plug design with a large gap between them. It just can’t be as solid a base as the other fin systems. Also I’ve never had a board that didn’t crack at the deck around the fin plugs. Tying into the deck doesn’t seem like a good idea when you’re a heavy footer (even with a tail pad).
Improvements…yes. Up to par with other systems - I don’t think so. They won’t get away from the two plug design for fear of admitting it was not the best design, or for not allowing backwards compatability. Although they should have designed a larger single plug and then used an adapter, as the one which fits FCS into Lokbox.
It’s more of the same wrapped up in glitter. The whole basic FCS system is flawed in design. It doesn’t take a NASA engineer to see the inherent flaw in the design. The need to get rid of the plugs and tabs. What good is fin with out a solid base? Defeats the purpose.
I’m over whole FCS BS, too many other better systems out there available.
Howzit vpravada, Is that a dozen of the new plugs or just a dozen FCS installs. I’ve probably done close to 1000 FCS installs and my jigs fit perfectly in the old plugs but with the new plugs the jigs only go in about 1/4 " and then trying to get the jigs out is a pain. FCS rep who monitors here told me they knew about the problem and to just sand my jigs til the new plugs fit but I still have way over 100 of the old plugs and am going to wait til I use them up before messing with the jigs. Even some of the old plugs are tight on my jigs. Aloha,Kokua
Quote:
I still don't like the two plug design with a large gap between them. It just can't be as solid a base as the other fin systems. Also I've never had a board that didn't crack at the deck around the fin plugs. Tying into the deck doesn't seem like a good idea when you're a heavy footer (even with a tail pad).Improvements…yes. Up to par with other systems - I don’t think so. They won’t get away from the two plug design for fear of admitting it was not the best design, or for not allowing backwards compatability. Although they should have designed a larger single plug and then used an adapter, as the one which fits FCS into Lokbox.
With a proper install FCS will not crack around the plugs. This is explained in detail in the FCS install manual. Many glass shops forego the glass patches on hull and deck necessary to make any fin system strong enough.
Tying into the deck is yet another perfectly well engineered solution that is also usually not handled properly by the glass shop. The DECK needs patches to stiffen and strengthen the glass around the plug through holes. If you forego these the deck may dent adjacent to the plugs and possibly even crack the glass.
The strength of the fin in torsion is going to depend on the distance of the base over which the plug is secured. FCS covers a reasonable distance.
But you should also understand that FCS controls 2/3rds of the market, and they will not lose many customers as long as their installation is really easy and their performance is adequate and their reps are not boneheads. Every other fin system needs to provide a reason for their potential customers to leave FCS. FCS just needs to make their current customers happy enough not to leave.
Perhaps what we should do here is list the systems available on the market and name the advantages and disadvanatges of each one so that readers hereforth can identify with the positives and negatives that suit their situation:
FCS:
A- Easy Install, Available anywhere, vast range, Easy repair, Heavily endorsed. New glassflex material does have 50-60% glass (sorry tom but it does, its the rest of the mix that has you fooled!) Easy to make glass fins to fit.
D- Bonehead installers and glassers install incorrect, Base flex in old plugs, Old materials lacking performance, other systems despise as they majority of the market share. Australian Company if you don’t like poor old skippy’s.
Future:
A- Solid Base, solid range, technoligical, Patriotic.
D- Boards snap between torsion points of boxes, delams whole tail of board with impact, bad supply of anything but composite. Available only widely in U.S
Glass on:
A- The strongest base and the ultimate feeling (if right template), no brain necessary to remember tools, fins or what worked last time. Power transfer
D- Hard to travel, Hard to manufacture, Hard to repair, innacurate sanding, unreplicatable feeling.
Red-X:
A- very strong through board, adjustibility, good foils
D- Cutting feet in boxes on deck, cracking on deck, whole rail comes off with impact, Hard to buy replacements or repairers with replacement parts (AUS?)
Lokbox:
A- (You guys fill this one out, no experience in OZ)
D-
Speed:
A- No tools required to put fins in and out, free tail edge,
D- Hard to install, no availability, business owners on crash course for destruction.
There are more I know I am simply getting it started but lets put it in one forum for those interested to check out.
There’s way more systems and great to add them to this as well. Many people I am sure would love to get a definitive what’s what of all systems to choose from as you can get lost in it all. Hope this doesnt start a riot!
Here is one of my boards with the new system and the M-series fins. Everything looks good. I like how the inside of the side fins are concave/foiled. The new Glass Flex material feels stiffer and quite good and definitely an improvement
Chip I went with black plugs… those candy color ones are cool in the right board though.
The glass content is not such a huge issue. Although, it sure appears less. It’s really how resiliant the flex is and the binding materials of the Fiber Flex and the new material we’re using appears very similar. But, if you say they have 60% then it must not be the same material. Because at 60% our fins are insanely stiff.
Then about your perception of the pros and cons. The cons you mention about Red X can just as easily be attributed to “Bone Head Installers” as well.
Red-X:
A- very strong through board, adjustibility, good foils
D- Cutting feet in boxes on deck(it’s a bone head move not to debur the inner edge), cracking on deck(it’s a bone head move not add sufficient deck patches or scarf around the perimeter), whole rail comes off with impact(you got hit it really, really hard if properly installed), Hard to buy replacements or repairers with replacement parts (AUS?) Well it’s not like we can’t make enough. You just have to demand it.
Lokbox:
A- (You guys fill this one out, no experience in OZ) Don’t worry you will
good on you ben …
…nice to see at least one american who doesn’t hate fcs , just because [like ‘surftech’] they weren’t invented by an american / made in america.
Newsflash !
…700 or whatever miles of california coastline does not make it the centre of the [surfing, or surf industry] universe.
cheers !
ben
I HEAR the midget comment. Is it just me or does molecularly exact fin design become slightly less important with bigger boards? Or maybe the fin designers just aren’t as concerned with that corner of the market?
-doug
need bigger fins ? make 'em , dougy !
…good for the ‘soul’ [?]
ben