That maybe the case for CI (even tho now owned by big corp maybe not based in norcal??) but FCS is Australian owned and run by Australian bankers, don’t think the Court would have too much sympathy for them being in a suit against american citizen…who knows he may be a Santa Barbara local and get the court sympathy…so it is going somewhere before it is over.
Hey …the guy maybe even is a Sways poster!!
Rocky
Icc,
Certainly lawyers will go after the deep pockets, but it may also be the case where non profits typically serve lower income people who either can’t pay a lawyer or simply do not know how to access the system in that manner. Non profits tend to be part of the ‘safety net.’ We constantly talk about ways to reduce the cost of health care, but never talk about ways to reduce the cost of a lawyer or access to the law and justice. 3- 400 dollars an hour in many cases. I wonder why…
We’ve becoming a culture of narcissistic wimps who can’t accept responsibility for what we do. Mike
Prolly true but try telling the Judge that as a defence.
it will take more than ‘the obvious’ because a sale was made and a consumer got injured and is blaming the seller/manufacturer. So that is basic conumer rights 101 for ANY consumer, proving negligence is another thing but if a claim is made ya must have a defence…so what would you put up as a defence?
Rocky
Hey Rocky,
I’m not sure. I’m not a 3-400 dollar an hour lawyer. But, it would probably be something along the lines of inherent acceptance of risk when you choose the product and activity. The consumer CHOSE to use a hard surfboard with edges and points instead of some other product. Like a boogie board or soft board. Mike
Actually non-profits cover across the entire financial spectrum.
Most are like the Kaiser Permanente group, Stanford Medical Center, UCSF and UCLA medical centers, other university based medical systems across the country, Catholic Healthcare West, Adventist Healthcare…hundreds of premium non-profits who generate their operating revenue just like for-profits do,
through contracting with the big health insurance companies like BlueCross/Blue Shield, Aetna United Heathlcare, etc…
And conversely there are the ‘poor’ focused providers, which are almost all state/county/city operated hospitals and clinics that generate almost all of their revenue off of MediCaid and MediCare reimbursement from the Fed’s.
Biggest difference between the non-profits and the for-profits is how the for-profits skim the top by pushing for most expensive billable testing (in capitation based non-profits like Kaiser, doc’s are paid a flat rate, hospitals get a flat rate per the monthly healthcare premium, so no incentive to over test), mark-up all pass through’s at a much higher rate (aspirin, wound kits, bedpans, blah blah), and flat out run leaner staffs, especially the nurse to patient ratio (non-profits might run one RN with an aide for every 8 patients, for profits will do 10 patients), which means higher patient infection rates, more wrong drug incidents, unions busted whenever possible, etc, etc.
I’ve worked in both for-profit and non-profit systems, have always had premium insurance (wife is a nurse), and whenever my wife or I have needed an operation over the years, we’ve always had it done in a non-profit because we know the care within the hosptial will be better…and the best surgeons in the country work out of University systems because they are so into research and teaching as well…
and regarding lawyers…yea, they suck, crazy lawsuit judgments have warped reality, dumb shit drops a cup of hot coffee on her lap gets 20 million dollar award for being a dumb shit…wouldn’t get it, though, if the idiots sitting on the jury weren’t even dumber shits…
So - according Gregg & Karpel’s “logic”:
The surfing community at large should now be able to file a class action lawsuit directed at the two of them for Stress & Anxiety caused by them for putting the future of Surfing in peril.
And let’s not leave out the productivity losses sustained by various international companies while Swaylockers & other blog posters replied to this thread.
Some of the longer online reactions could problably claim carpal tunnel and eye strain…
I’m thinking that all CI or FCS has to say is “prove it was our fins that did that”.
But, the “justice” system never ceases to amaze me with it’s bassackwardness.
It sounds like ol Mr Gregg is one up based on the defences put up so far here on Sways. Besides what you think of him and his lawyers, based on what was written up on the Surfer forum back in sept 11 he has coped a severe howling down but is persisting…so like it or not looks like he has a case.
I don’t sell boards but if i did, i would be checking my insurance exposure if i did glass ins as they won’t come out and if fitting a fin system would want written confirmation from FCS or whoever that they covered you for fin liability if Mr Gregg or his cronies have another wipeout…even if it not riding one of your boards
Rocky
Icc,
Thanks for the education. I cross referenced your paragraph with the wife(the doctor). She concurs. I wonder if being a non profit gives some sort of tax incentives, thus lower cost. The wife has worked for non profits and for profits. All the non profits were part of the safety net, in general. Clinics for farm workers and their families, county clinic, etc. That’s where my perspective and lack of basic infor comes from. Thanks. mike
She did point out to me that either type, profit or non profit, can be mismanagned and bad and you may have over generalized on that part of your paragraph. Mike
You can't sue the city because you got hurt playing baseball at a local park. Same goes for surfing. Remember back in the 80's when you had to sign a legal form before you could ride in a skate park? Now the city has a free skate park for all the kids. I don't know all the legal stuff but....Surfing is dangerous...and it's like playing baseball in the park...you might get hurt...play at your own risk......Most surfers have been hurt at one point...
I tell people all the time that surf schools need to use real surfboards with solid glass jobs and sharp fins. Surfing is not soft boards and rubber fins. You can get hurt surfing.
Ray
no worries, Mike, and major props to your wife working on the safety net side. Health care has become so politically polarized, somehow the simple humanity of providing basic healthcare to the poor, something this country has always done, has become a political volleyball between both the f’d up parties.
And you’re correct about the tax incentives - as part of their charter, non-profits aren’t taxed, just have to plow any surplus revenue over operation costs back into the operation.
As iterated earlier, make all hospitals and clinics non-profit, form public (non employer) insurance pools without pre-existing condition disqualifications, and costs will drop significantly. Only for-profit healthcare and insurance companies spend 250M a year, employing 3,000 lobbyists in Washington DC and contributing to campaign funds to dirtbags on both sides of the aisle to make sure that doesn’t happen…
Hey,
I was wondering if someone could help me figure out about what year my board was made.
Thanks,
JC[img_assist|nid=1064162|title=Hansen 50-50, 9'-6"|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=75|height=100]
FIND THE NUMBER OF THE BOARD, PLUS ANY LETTERS OR SYMBOLS WITH IT. REPORT BACK, OR POST LARGE PHOTO.
[img_assist|nid=1064164|title=Hansen 50-50, 9'-6"|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=100|height=75]Hi Bill, There are no numbers on it that I can see.
Thanks,
John
reminds me of a case i was a potential juror on. a 16 year old climbed up in backyard tree to get a stuck kite and got zapped by utility lines. sdcarred his arm was all. probably taught him a good lesson too. so know he was ready to graduate high scholl and go on to college-needed some $ so they decide to sue utility company. didn't work out too good for him and i doubt it will for this gregg dude. ya goofed up -owe up to it. nobody to blame but yourself.own it and move on, learn from the mistake and try not to do it again.
hey Stingray, agree to a point that surfing can be dangerous, but way more people get serious injuries from just about any sport you can name than serious injuries suffered by surfers (yep way less people surf)…so relatively it is not really a dangerous sport for the average surfer who does not charge Mavs, Chopes or Pipe.
Most, but not all, serious surf injuries are a result of either being hit with fin or nose (equipment related) OR hitting reef/rock/sand, falling/landing badly doing knees, hips, shoulder and neck injuries (non equipment related)…throw in the odd shark, skin cancer, liquid enema etc (freaky related)
Please don’t read this as taking sides or promoting lawyers or law suits…but here is a scenario
So take your baseball example. I’m guessing getting hit by the ball would account for a high % of serious baseball injuries. pretty obvious and player knows ball is fairly hard and to aviod getting hit. But what happens if some ball maker sells “new” balls made of super hard material, a casing that splits on impact with the bat then becomes a sharp edged misile etc etc.
So your kid play Baseball and one of these “new” balls and you, your kid etc don’t know it is a ‘new’ ball. Bam, kid gets hit… looses an eye, gets brain injury or suffers a MORE serios injury than a NORMAL ball would have done…now we have a way different situation.
Fins have a foil shape that is thicker at the leading edge and thinner at the trailing edge so it is sharper. But HOW sharp does it need to be to still do the job a fin needs to do? This is where many arguable points of view butt heads, not to mention the fin outline shape that is mostly rouned at the tip…but how rounded, what radius is too ‘pointy’?
Think knife…different shaped knives are used for different cutting, stabbing, slicing, hacking motions by the user. Blunt knives are pretty useless because what a knife has to do…cut!
The trailing edge of a fin does not cut and does not need to be sharp like a knife. The tip of the fin does not stab or act as the penetrating entry piont like the tip of some knives, so it does not need to be pointy!
So why do some board makers, fin makers, sanders etc make fins that are way too sharp (who hasn’t copped a cut from a trailing fin edge which surprised you and made you think…shit that is freakin sharper than I thought). But how many would dare sand back or blunten that edge…because it came that way and the board maker, fin company are freakin experts designers and that fin is sharp for a reason , so my board won’t go any good if I screw with that blade.
There in lies the problem…too much BS, guesswork, ignorance and downright stupidity have become the status quo in board design and that is wher the industry is exposed to the likes of Mr Gregg and his smart ruthless lawyers who will use this stuff to hold CI or FCS ( as big $$$ companies) accountable for selling a product that was more dangerous than was needed or expected without specifically warning of the risk.
Maybe i am way wrong, but just calling gregg a kook or winger or ‘should have jsut copped it sweet’ will not make this case go away…and you can’t say you wouldn’t sue someone or some company (car, food, computer etc) that caused you a serious injury if you thought it was reckless design or the injury was not possibly forseen.
Rocky
Sorry the bad word but this is bullshit…A surfboard is a piece of art…surfing is an art and it can not be ruled like everything else in this fuckn caotic system.
If you buy a knife and cut yourself bad , is It the manufacturer fault?
also like my fins sharp
horsemouth, ya prolly right on all counts…but good luck try telling the judge what you have posted here.
thats what is so crazy about the whole deal, but if ya make and sell boards this is real and like it or not it could send ya broke
Rocky
If CI and FCS' insurance companies don't settle, there will be no need for the "good luck telling that to the judge." The case will be tried by a jury of their "peers" as is done in just about any trial, civil or criminal, that goes to court here in the U.S. One can only hope that the jury will understand "assumption of risk," that is, that the plaintiff went out and surfed, a sport/art known to have inherent dangers. However, all too often, insurance companies opt to settle out of court to avoid paying a big judgement
As for the fins being too sharp, I doubt that you can make a good, functional fin that wouldn't penetrate the skin if enough blunt force is put on it. Maybe those fins made by the same guys that made nose guards would be the exception. I agree that fins don't have to be super sharp, but even with the edge taken down, you're left with an edge in the one mil thickness range that will penetrate wetsuits or skin if you hit it hard enough. Even the leading edge of a fin can cause severe trauma. How many boards have you seen that have been run over with two or three fin gouges from the rail well into the foam. Now imagine if that were the surfer getting hit instead of the surfboard. The point being, there's any number of ways your surfboard can hurt you while surfing.
I think it's one thing to sue a company or person for negligence if their product causes you injury through no fault of your own, and an entirely different thing to sue someone because you used their product doing something with built in risk. Should a surfboard maker be made liable if I catch a rail in the forehead and drown because the rails are glassed strong enough to harm me if I impact one or both of them? I don't think so.
If this guy's lawsuit is successful, it's a step towards everyone riding finless boogieboard type surfboards. I'm hoping common sense prevails should this case find its way to court.