We just received the new Fusion box from FCS.The box will not be replacing the FCS plugs that we have all become accustom to, but will just be another choice we will have when installing fin boxes.The box seems as if it will solve the problems people were having with exotherm when installing the plugs with epoxy.Has anyone tried installing these yet?
BEEN MAKING MY OWN FCS PLUGS FOR YEARS NOW SO I HAVE NEVER HAD A EXOTHERM PROBLEM PLUS MY PLUGS ARE 20% BIGGER AND LIGHTER AND A LOT CHEAPER TO MAKE ,AND THEY DO NOT BREAK LIKE FCS DOSE, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE WHAT THEY HAVE COME UP WITH MABE THEY WILL WORK THIS TIME ???
RadRob,
Received the jig, bit and boxes Monday and had the first set in that night. Installation is a snap! They were easy to glass over and the stickers (for sealing the opening) adhered well. I will be sanding the board tomorrow so we’ll see how they finish up. I used the 9 degree boxes for the front fins on a mild single concave bottom. The exotherm problem is gone now we’ll see how they hold up.
Dave_D
RichardL, why do you never have pictures? For the claims you make, pictures would make a big difference.
hey rab rob not directed at you but
exotherm is the dumbest shit thing ive listened to on this site fir the last 3 years
there is such thing as slow hardener
and plenty of resins that wont get hot enough to melt eps
even my 5 min epoxy doesnt melt eps and that gets really hot
I’ve never had a problem with it, but I’ve seen more than one catastrophe happen before my eyes.
The worst was a guy who kept pouring more resin into the ever expanding hole under the glass!
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hey rab rob not directed at you butexotherm is the dumbest shit thing ive listened to on this site fir the last 3 years
there is such thing as slow hardener
and plenty of resins that wont get hot enough to melt eps
even my 5 min epoxy doesnt melt eps and that gets really hot
I ran into this, it is a problem for anyone who installs post-lam with a box intended for later glass-over.
The problem is the box height must be set precisely within about 1/4 mm to get a really good install. No grinding it down later.
Epoxies and polyester resin have exotherm. You can engineer the route of the hole so that it is a tight fit, which minimizes the heat. Or you can use a slow resin (low catalyst for polyester resin, or slow epoxy). If not, the heat will expand the local foam and the install will be sub-par.
At production levels, there is money involved - the faster the boxes can set, the less time it takes for the fin system install. Slow is not as good a solution.
JJR saw these issues and went for, and argued for, the tight route. I think he was right, I added a finbox positioner. Its main purpose is setting the box height precisely. We recently re-designed it to set all three boxes at once, with the height controlled on each (coming in a week or so).
A fast no-exotherm resin would be even better. But if you have a box that is not supposed to be glassed over (FCS plugs or Bahne box), or if the box is installed prior to lamination without a full resin coverage in the routed hole (Futures), these are less of an issue.
It is a price you pay to get the best strength-weight in the install.
The Fusion box goes a step further by providing the foam insert (although I have not yet seen how they control the box height after routing).
At 24 grams per unit (with screws) the Fusion is the lightest pre-glass install system available, for those obsessed with such.
One route install is nice. Very strong finished product in Coil Construction.
hey blakestah
do you have to use resin to glue th box in anyway
the eps is weak as shit anyway
one bead away from the resin and its weak as shit
maybe no point even using resin
you could use urethane for example or other adhesives
or cloth and resin thickened with microfiber
its glassed over the strength is a great deal from the glass
i believe exotherm is a non issue so no point developing product to counter it
thats fixing the symptom
the best solution is inserts
and or as you say, tight routes
inserts insures ZERO water intrusion
fcs is a already a good system
even better with inserts
now if the box was say 12 to 14 mm deep like the future box
then we would be on to something
Hey Silly-
I’m glad exotherm has not been an issue for you, but it has been a very real problem for many board builders using the traditional FCS system in EPS with Epoxy resin around the world, especially in hot and humid climates. We have tested many epoxy resins very thoroughly and in best and worse case scenario temperature and humidity and were not able to find one that completely lacked an exothermic reaction that could potentially lead to failure in the system. Here in Florida, I personally did many tests last spring and summer in extreme temperature and humidity that resemble surfboard factory conditions here. Some of the results were very alarming. Especially considering that many times it looked as though there were no failures, but when I cut the test sample open on the ban saw, there were failures inside. We even had problems when we used slow hardener as you suggested and in some cases the slow made it even worse! Have a look at a couple of my test samples:
Looks fine right?
Failure inside.
More failures.
Side walls and post melted creating weakness. I have a big box of these test samples with many similar failures I could show you.
As we’ve said on here before, our new Fusion system does solve this problem for EPS / Epoxy. We’ve been selling Fusion for a few weeks now here in the US and the feedback has been very positive so far. Fusion does have high density inserts and also a very tight route as you suggested in your previous post. FYI- The depth measurement of a Fusion plug is about 14.28mm or 9/16" measured from the top of the flange to the bottom of the plug / insert.
On a lighter note, I said in one of my previous posts that I would post pics of my board with Fusion. Here’s a couple of the board for those who haven’t seen Fusion yet installed and finished and also a couple of pics of me putting the board and Fusion to the test recently.
Take care,
Ron
Umm, why is the hole 50% deeper than the plug? One of the pictures is 100% deeper than the plug! Of course a blob of resin like that will heat up. I can make smoke in a dixie cup with that much excess resin, polyester or epoxy. I realize the proper install goes all the way to the deck glass. From my experience, that just makes a hard spot on the rail, just where my toes like to press down. Eventually, that foam collapses and the glass will crack on the deck side right around the plug. To me, this means ARGGHHH, and a leaking loose plug, basically killing the board. There are just too many failure points with six plugs, top and bottom. I still like the Fusion box idea though. What I’d really like to see is a universal box that is compatible with all the fin systems. The outer dimensions are the same, just different holes for different systems.
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hey blakestahdo you have to use resin to glue th box in anyway
the eps is weak as shit anyway
If you use resin, the load transfers much more evenly to the EPS over a broad portion of the hole. That’s the goal - any lateral box flex moves reasonably evenly with the foam.
If you don’t use resin, you will rapidly develop stress concentrations. Once the foam fails to support lateral loads, you will progressively delam next to the box.
If you don’t feel you get ANY help from the EPS, resin wouldn’t help. But I am convinced the foam support IS an integral part of most fin systems (excepting only those that mount to both decks).
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i believe exotherm is a non issue so no point developing product to counter it
thats fixing the symptom
Again, I disagree.
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the best solution is inserts
The point of the insert is transferring the load to a BROADER area of EPS foam. You are still using the weak foam, just using it with a better mechanical advantage.
And in the FCS case that is probably secondary to allowing the installer to use a 1 depth route for the install. They have figured out that they only need 1 mold and it is dirt cheap to make high density foam inserts…they probably even submitted IP on it already.
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Umm, why is the hole 50% deeper than the plug? One of the pictures is 100% deeper than the plug! Of course a blob of resin like that will heat up. I can make smoke in a dixie cup with that much excess resin, polyester or epoxy. I realize the proper install goes all the way to the deck glass. From my experience, that just makes a hard spot on the rail, just where my toes like to press down. Eventually, that foam collapses and the glass will crack on the deck side right around the plug. To me, this means ARGGHHH, and a leaking loose plug, basically killing the board. There are just too many failure points with six plugs, top and bottom. I still like the Fusion box idea though. What I’d really like to see is a universal box that is compatible with all the fin systems. The outer dimensions are the same, just different holes for different systems.
Hey Scott-
You are right, these are pretty thick test samples, thicker than a normal tail, but I / we did tests on normal tail thickness samples as well and found the same result numerous times. We also did have some that didn’t fail in those thicker samples, which just goes to show the sometimes unpredictable nature of EPS and epoxy. The bottom line for us is that we did find lots of failures in our testing and our customers were reporting failures as well in normal tails and under their normal working conditions.
Thanks,
Ron
hey ron
allthough the fusion systems is the right way to go
i do hope your not claiming a first to do this
huie
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hey ron
allthough the fusion systems is the right way to go
i do hope your not claiming a first to do this
huie
Hi Huie-
Not quite sure what you mean?
If you mean first to do a preglass system, no way, never claimed or implied that. Hope it didn’t come across that way.
Ron
great mate
i look forward to using the box
im very happy you made it thinner
i think its a good concept and having the inserts supplied with the box is great
one of my pet hates is mucking around with inserts
i had to buy a 280 dollar sheet of HD foam so i can make my own and router template
should be a quick and easy install
whats the insert depth?
is it thick enough so the plug doesnt go through the bottom
it would be great if the core was completely isolated from the plug
(one of my pet bitches on this site for years)
it would also spread the load well enough so you dont need to bond to the deck
this would also allow for better tail flex
i cant see much point in using eps unless its skinned anyway
why not use pu with epoxy resin instead
at least it wouldnt suck water
the trick with epoxy sets is to use some cloth or more milled fiber then usual
also try not to keep the resin in a deep container to long
once its mixed pour it in to a flat container
this reduces exotherm a great deal
an infusion resin is best
they are really slow to set and hardly exotherm at all
they do not reach full temp stability but are plenty strong enough after a 3 days
What does the thickness of the foam have to do with the depth of the test routes? Maybe I don’t know what I’m looking at. For instance, what are the thin vertical lines that go down? Is that from the hole cut or is it ‘resin melt’? Am I to believe that a skinny line of resin has any strength at all? Maybe the loose route is to provide adjustability at install time? Anytime you increase adjustability, you also increase slop and variability. Sounds like a pain in the butt to me, too much babysitting the plug installs. Why not route the hole perfectly in the first place? No matter what, the hole is going to be cut out. With the current system, I still have to jerk around when popping the plugs in, things like jigs and tape.
Here’s my equation: tight route = no pools of resin = no exotherm problems
yeah you only need 1mm maybe 2 at the most at the bottom of the plug
Where’s Greg Loehr in all of this? He should have some advice for all you EPS/Resin Research users.
Hi Ron, what material is the new plugs and boxes made out of? The new “natural” plug looks like UHMWPE, is it?