I’ve heard rumors that one or more of the FCS patents may have expired. I’m not sure if this was supposedly in the U.S. or in Oz or what. Has anybody heard about this or could this just be something getting spread by chinese knock-off companies? I had seen a thread on here about a south bay shaper finding imitations of his boards being sold on craigslist. It said they had “fake” FCS plugs. Would the rumors be coming from companies like whoever made those plugs? Or is there actually some fact behind this?
I’m not sure FSC has ever sucessfully defended its patent, we’ve been able to get Euro plugs here for years that are basically the same as the old plugs and take the FCS fins.
…yess, like WW said
fron almost day 2 there s similar plugs around the globe
Ive read alot about this.
However, everything I read was through Google or the Swaylocks archive.
Look it up!
I know they exist. My question is whether they are legal. I could see them being legal in Europe if FCS never filed for a patent there. But would I be violating the FCS patents if I used these other plugs in boards in the US or Australia?
Patents just give you a leg to stand on in court. They do not guarantee you will not have your product ripped off. They are a deterent, but that’s about it. In some cases it could cost a company more to defend themselves than the actual loss of sales. I know of at least 3 different FCS knock-offs in brazil alone. I mentioned that to Tyler from FCS a year or two ago after a trip down there and he rolled his eyes. I would imagine that tracking all the guys down that were actually making them, and the costs of legally forcing them to stop would be monumental. That being said, in some cases (like Zippo lighters) there can be liability issues. The chinese knocked of the Zippos to a tee, but they were catching fire and burning people due to shitty construction. Of course the victims came straight after Zippo. In those cases you have no choice but to spend the dough and stop them before you go broke with law suits. It’s all about the $$$…
If you’re gonna rip off a fin system, why would you choose FCS? Am I the only one that keeps finding fins on the beach, complete with both FCS plugs and a little resin and foam still stuck on them? Glad they didn’t come out of my boards…
If there was any patent violation it would be the manufacuters of the plugs, not the guy that installs them in to a board. I think there would be a only problem if you tried to sell them as having FSC plugs when you’d actually put in one of the equivelent brands, what you would have to discribe it as is FCS style plugs or able to take FSC fins.
Any plugs that take FCS fins is only more money for FCS in the long run if you compare the price of a set of plugs to a set of fins then I wouldn’t be worried.
Years ago FSC did try to take an Hawiaan fin manufacture to court for makeing fins with FSC compatable tabs but the case failed and the judge ruled that the patent was for the plugs not the fins and as a fin is essentually 1 piece it could not be pattented, and that opened the doors for others to make FCS compatable fins. (something along those lines anyway)
The large companies have little to gain from going after a small time shaper, there is not much point in sueing some one who hasn’t got much money unless you are tryign to set a pressident and then that can back fire, so unless your making $$$$$ I wouldn’t worry too much.
AS for the knocked of shapes, we know its wrong but a shape is just interlectual propertey and there is no way to prevent someone else using your out lines. Now if they are trying to say that the board was shaped by you and it wasn’t then that is illegal, I think the artical mensions that the fake boards dont use true branded FSC fins while the boards shaped by X do purely as away to distingish between the real deal and the knocked off boards. I dont think that it impacts on the actial use of the other plugs.
Like saying you can spot a fake board by me because all the decals are straight and I only ever put then slightly off centre.
thats my take on it any way.
The big patent for FCS was grub screws on the side of the fins. Pretty sure it is expired.
They also have a patent on the H install - making a hole through to the deck, and filling the hole with a resin mixture.
Then again, the main early patent seems to be
http://www.google.com/patents?id=EcEpAAAAEBAJ&dq=5464359
which was filed in 1994 and granted in 1995. The rule is 17 years from issue date or 20 years from the filing date, either way we have a ways to go before it expires. It is the grub screw on the side of the fin patent.
You might be correct. You may be the only one that finds your afore-mentioned FCS plugs, fins, fiberglass and foam etc on the beach. I’ve been to a few beaches and have never found even one. I have though repaired a few. The damage is usually the result of running aground on a reef or someones surfboard rack in a garage collasping. The nice thing about it is that they are so easy to repair.
Just go to the US Patent and trademark official site and do a search. Then you will know the straight poop.
Gotta love FCS, as a ding repairer they make up about 40-50% of the work I do. but I gues people are less inclined to fix them them selves compared to a rail ding. I’d say of the plug repairs I do 75% have failed due to poor instalation and not the plugs failing themself. When they do go it tens to be from a side impact that splits the plug through the centre in the corners of the slot where the plug is thiness. The seperated piece will usually be pussed into the foam.
Any time a plug pulls out or cracks round the out side is 9 time out of ten due to a poor intall, often not beeing tyed to the deck correctly or having large air bubbles.
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When they do go it tens to be from a side impact that splits the plug through the centre in the corners of the slot where the plug is thiness. The seperated piece will usually be pussed into the foam.
I’ve said it before, but I still wonder why FCS doesn’t double or triple the material thickness in this area. It’s ridiculous thin. Even if they did add some thickness there it would still install with the same hole saw. But as you say, good for you. Maybe good for the sales of FCS plugs too?
regards,
Håvard
…couple days ago a board (made by other shop) came to the shop without the front plug, the fin (side) and with the other tab grabbed in the back plug
the installation was made in a proper way with the H pattern to the deck and without air bubbles
—the problem with the reinstallation is that the plug will be not an H to the deck
cause theres no way to get rid of all that resin
so when you see a repaired plugs you can see problems in the future
-but is not only with Fcs
Future boxes are prone to get out of the hole
and they re heavies
I know what you mean, I get that all the time too. sometimes I make a new ‘H’ on the inside or outside of the old resin, but normally I just make sure every other aspect of the instalations is good as possible and hope that it bonds well.
So I score the sides and base of the hole, score a fillet under the glass around the hole opening, wipe the plug with solvent, rough it up with 60 grit.
In that senario I also like to add a layer or 2 of glass to the bottom of the hole and side of the plug, I just cut a a couple of circle of glass and push it to the hole with the plug. I wet that out before I fill the hole 2/3rds with resin/filler mix as normal.
Sometime to be extra save I’ll throw some chopes strands into the mix aswell.
Some times I get boards come through that haven’t even got the ‘H’! i think some guys don’t like the marks they leave on the deck but with FCS they really are needed. Mabye they are worried about patents but I’m guessing its either ignorance or lazyness.
Still it’s easier to repair a plug thats pulled out coz it was badly installed than it is to repair one that has been like you say.
Quote:
Quote:When they do go it tens to be from a side impact that splits the plug through the centre in the corners of the slot where the plug is thiness. The seperated piece will usually be pussed into the foam.
I’ve said it before, but I still wonder why FCS doesn’t double or triple the material thickness in this area. It’s ridiculous thin. Even if they did add some thickness there it would still install with the same hole saw. But as you say, good for you. Maybe good for the sales of FCS plugs too?
regards,
Håvard
Hey Harvard,
Your point is the very same one I have been trying to get an answer for. See the "FCS Longboard Adapter ’ thread and see my question.
Ron from FCS has posted a very helpfull piece on the stripped screw head issue but remains silent so far on the adapter, plug design and patent threads which really are core issues of their product. Seems Ron has no support from the owners who remain lurkers at bank head quarters.
Latest rumor is that because the new Fusion plug is not anchored with H pattern, under impact it breaks out to easily leaving a nasty mess. If this is true, then just like the P-2, are we seeing another marketing ploy not backed by proof of performance and quality.
Silence seems to be their only answer.
Rocky
Quote:
Quote:Quote:When they do go it tens to be from a side impact that splits the plug through the centre in the corners of the slot where the plug is thiness. The seperated piece will usually be pussed into the foam.
I’ve said it before, but I still wonder why FCS doesn’t double or triple the material thickness in this area. It’s ridiculous thin. Even if they did add some thickness there it would still install with the same hole saw. But as you say, good for you. Maybe good for the sales of FCS plugs too?
regards,
Håvard
Hey Harvard,
Your point is the very same one I have been trying to get an answer for. See the "FCS Longboard Adapter ’ thread and see my question.
Ron from FCS has posted a very helpfull piece on the stripped screw head issue but remains silent so far on the adapter, plug design and patent threads which really are core issues of their product. Seems Ron has no support from the owners who remain lurkers at bank head quarters.
Latest rumor is that because the new Fusion plug is not anchored with H pattern, under impact it breaks out to easily leaving a nasty mess. If this is true, then just like the P-2, are we seeing another marketing ploy not backed by proof of performance and quality.
Silence seems to be their only answer.
Rocky
Rock-
Savor this little tid bit of a response from me, because you won’t be getting any more any time soon. Like I told you before, I’m over you and your negative, rumor spreading, innuendo filled, conspiracy laden b.s. towards FCS!!! You have an axe to grind against FCS for reasons only known to you and a clear negative agenda toward FCS to try to muddy up FCS in any way you can. Everyone on Swaylocks at this point I’m sure has figured this out, and I can only speak for myself, but it is getting pretty old.
Now for some answers.
Sorry to all, but I’m not going to comment on FCS’s patents. I’m in no position to do so. Hope you all can respect that. Like some of you have said, they can be looked up and are public knowledge for anyone who wants to have a look.
To put to rest once and for all, there is absolutely no conspiracy by FCS to purposely make faulty products and sell them to anyone. Really? Come on people, do you really think that any company in their right mind that wants to be around for a while much less has been around for well over 10 years would do something like that? Do you really think we like hearing that something we sold failed? It sucks hearing that. No one wants to hear that, from the top of our company right to the bottom. That is why you try to make things better the best you can, which is exactly what we have been striving to do. Still don’t believe me? Well I don’t really know what else to say other than Bigfoot lives and so does the Lockness Monster and I’ve got a nice piece of land to sell you about 500 miles east of Florida…
Our new X-2 material plugs are much stronger and help to resist cracking in the corners of the slot.
As for the latest RUMOR that Rocklobster is blatently trying to spread on here about our new Fusion system breaking out easily under impact, I’d love to hear who told him that. Could it be our competitors who have been known to spread things like this often in the past? Come on Rock, give some names, give some situations / conditions they failed under, give some info on where and when they were installed, show some pics with testimony from the rider who broke them out. Here are the FACTS: We have been selling them here in the US and Hawaii for 2 months now and have not heard of one complaint of any break outs from any of our customers. In fact we have been hearing overwhelmingly positive feedback!! Anyone here on Sways that has been using Fusion so far want to back me up or have info to the contrary?
Fusion is a preglass system and was never designed to use the H -pattern and touch the deck for strength. Like Futures and Lokbox, (two successful fin systems in the market place that are perceived to be strong) Fusion relies primarily on a flange system that is glassed over for it’s strength, which is an entirely different structural design and concept than traditional FCS and the H-pattern. Preglass systems work better in EPS / epoxy (as well as some other alt. technology board building techniques) than the H-pattern touching the deck design, which is primarily why we made Fusion. We believe there are two features that make Fusion stronger than the other preglass systems on the market. 1) Fusion uses a high density insert that creates a stronger density gradient between the plug and the soft foam. The competition’s slots and flange are seated in soft foam which makes them easier to roll on impact. Fusion sits in high density foam and has a larger footprint seated in the foam than just the slot on the bottom of the system sitting in the soft foam. 2) Fusion’s curved figure eight shape spreads the load better than a long or even slighly curved box. Long straight lines promote straight line shearing of fiberglass, whereas a curved figure eight shape spreads the load more evenly. Both these features translate to strength.
For the record right here and now, I’m not saying that there won’t be failures with Fusion, there most certainly will be and the repair in some cases might not be pretty. Like I said before, no fin system at this point is perfect nor fool proof and neither is Fusion. We believe Fusion is stronger than our competitor’s preglass systems that are generally perceived to be strong and successful. Fusion a marketing ploy? Seriously? Test Fusion for yourself Rocklobster. You be the judge. Seems that might be the only way to convince you at this point. I’ll personally send you a set of Fusions complete with install template and router bit and any set of FCS fins of your choice all free of charge. I’ll even throw in a set of the X-2 plugs for you to test. Now if you would just come out from your hiding place and give me an address to send the stuff to. Doubt that will happen, because really you are not interested in testing out anything from FCS, you are just interested in slinging mud at FCS and driving your agenda. Would love for you to prove me wrong here but I’m sure that’s wishful thinking.
To the rest of you, I genuinely appreciate your support and hope I can continue to help when needed.
Ron
route in high density inserts on all fin systems
80% of problems will go away
face the inserts with glass and use glass in the hole
that takes care of the other 20 percent
pretty simple
yep
Hey Ron,
Geez your on that Mt Dew again.
Certainly got your attention but once again no answers Ron. One lobster Conspiracy…you keep telling yourself that if it helps you sleep.
Blame me and accuse me all you like but but i’m not the one who should answer the questions people who buy your product are asking you and so, answer the questions! You did it re the grub screw, what about the rest?
Patents. You say “I’m not going to comment on FCS’s patents. I’m in no position to do so” Exactly Ron, then why doesn’t an FCS owner who you watches Sways, reply? You say its all public and people seem confused, so why not help them. A Sways good will gesture.
P-2/X-2. You say’ Our new X-2 material plugs are much stronger and help to resist cracking in the corners of the slot." Help to resist??? Is that the answer to Harvards question as to why you don’t fix the problem that you are aware of…that the plug design is faulty at that point. If thats your answer, fine but its not one that builds confidence. In your own marketing launch some years ago noted that the P-2 had rounded corners to make them stronger, well that did not work!
Longboard adapter…you got so worked up you must have forgot that one!
RUMOR!!! You say "As for the latest RUMOR that Rocklobster is blatently trying to spread on here about our new Fusion system breaking out easily under impact, I’d love to hear who told him that. " Well Ron I did not start this rumor and I can only say from my knowledge it was certainly not a competitor, they seem happy for you guys to hang yourselves. One thing I do know, it is solid as a rock (excuse the pun) and if you choose to ignore it, it will be at your peril.
Thanks for the offer of product, I only use tested and proven fin systems on my boards!
Rocky
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I only use tested and proven fin systems on my boards!
Please inform us exactly which fin system you use.