Check out the article at Swell.com. Interesting… Later-ryan
Check out the article at Swell.com. Interesting… Later-ryan…Funny… I developed and built a finless,but very functional board over 4 years ago,and all people did was laugh or get mad about it.It’s good to see that there are others out there that are willing to step up to the plate and give it a swing!I intro-ed it on Bruce Jones web site and got all kinds of flack for it.I haven’t given up on the design though,i’m making some refinements and it will out perform any finned board in any aspect.My design is different than the one I saw in the article.I do believe it is the next big step in surfboard design.Herb. p.s. A special thanks to Brad Basham for the inspiration and incouragement… when everyone else just laughed it off.
That would be great to not have to set fins into a board.
I bet between Herb and Dale S. we could get some interesting input on what a logical starting point for someone interested in shaping a finless craft. C’mon guys, where do we start? TS > Check out the article at Swell.com. Interesting… Later-ryan
I bet between Herb and Dale S. we could get some interesting input on what > a logical starting point for someone interested in shaping a finless > craft. C’mon guys, where do we start?>>> TS The finless craft had an extensive R&D period from 1968-mid ‘70s by a good friend of mine and several co-harts. Steve Barger from Manhattan Beach started working on the finless craft right at the beginning of the shortboard revolution using reject blanks from and with some input from Bing Copland. The board was christened the Auga and used channels and edges in place of fins with lengths around 5’. Barger stayed with this design thread for the rest of his surfing life, enlisting other zealots along the way. Steve moved to Maui in 1968 and lives there still. He and Craig Forrest and Tom Warren totally ripped the Lahaina Breakwall for years. Backwards, forwards, side slipping in and out of the tube. Barger rode Honolua Bay on these boards to the amazement of all. His surfing is documented in several films including “Pacific Vibrations” by John Severson, “Sunshine Sea” by Macgillvary-Freeman and a long lost film by Steve Bingham, who used to work with Scott Dittrich, about a trip to mainland Mexico. There was also a couple of small articles in Surfer, including an article on Barker and Forrest riding the Breakwall at night with lights on their heads and battery packs on their backs. This is a classic long forgotten chapter of surfboard design and of surfers who truly had the nerve and commitment to “think outside the box.”
I think Herb is right in saying that it will be the next step for surfboards. We saw it happen in the world of wakeboarding, guys are going nuts over the way it holds in the water the exact same way as fins would, yet making the board more versatile in now being able to hit pvc launch ramps and reducing the overall weight. Keep it up Herb, can’t wait to see one in the board archive! -brandon
For visual inspiration and a possible design starting point check out Dale S’s triplane in board archive > experimental. S
I bet between Herb and Dale S. we could get some interesting input on what > a logical starting point for someone interested in shaping a finless > craft. C’mon guys, where do we start?>>> TS…I will post 2 diagrams on the board page very soon (thanks Tim ,forgot about Pac.Vib.s one of my all time favorites)these are not literal scriptures,but ideas to spawn more ideas,I would be intrested in anyones inventiveness.As I said in the past my design(s)are completely different than the one posted on Swell,which goes to show ME that there’s alot of room for this new wave design.SURFING STARTED ON FINLESS BOARDS.A REVOLUTION ALWAYS…COMES BACK TO IT’S ORIGIN.Herb.
Herb, Not having seen a computer in many days, I was delightfully shocked when I saw this “finless” thread developing…finless design does have the weight of history behind it, and is not limited to just the heavy, crude, square-railed planks from earlier in this century. I have personally made and tested many very successful finless designs (hard and soft, rigid and flexible, low/high flotation) over the past 30 years, primarily prone and kneeboard. I also have learned much about this subject through the use of a custom Merv Larson surfski (via sitting). Depending on what performance and design elements that you and your waves require, finless surfcraft can definitely be a functional addition to anyones quiver. The best exhibit a fine sensitivity, are extremely fast, have unique, wide-range manueverablity characteristics and offer the shaper/surfer an opportunity to experience the freedom of concentrating on a delicate balance of design factors, minus the dependance on fin(s). Riding a finless design is frequently very unlike conventional surfing and if this concept is embraced and explored long enough, the student of design (we are all no more than that) will likely change his/her present opinions about how moving water reacts to objects that slide down waves, as well as ones overall ability level and style. At some point, you may come to realize a growing awareness and empathy to the historic lineage of finless surfers and the lines they and their craft shared so long before. In fact, all this talk about designing, creating and actually testing different stuff is really healthy and sort of like what traveling does for most of us: the seeking, discovering, learning and experiencing of new people, places and things often teaches one to view life from a broader, humbler and perhaps wiser, perspective. It`s been said that if you live long enough (you can cheat and study history, too), you will observe that much of that which the tapestry of our lives is composed of, simply travels in circles, coming back around in slightly different forms. I believe part of the solution to our questions (and asking them implies responsibility) lies in giving this merry-go-round we call life… a really hard push.
Dale,glad you looked in and found something that stoked you!!!Yes,I agree that finless boards surf differently.I will put a priority on this subject w/o rushing it and from time to time look to you and others for feedback and information.Thanks,Herb.
Where are the pictures? Specifically of these vehicles being ridden and other detailia.
Check out the article at Swell.com. Interesting… Later-ryan Some friends and I were discussing tow-in surfing yesterday, after seeing some of the new films. One guy said how much the huge turns they were doing looked like a carve on a snowboard, and why does the board need fins when it is up on edge at high speeds like that? A snowboard does’nt, a wakeboard does’nt, bodyboards and mats don’t. How are these guy’s riding waves without fins, and holding in? I think the truth is out there, and like Dale said, we may need to only look at the past, to what we already know. Heck, it’s been done, just maybe not to it’s fullest potential on a stand up surfboard. I love knowing that surfcraft design is a never ending process, and nothing is ever right or wrong. ryan
Some friends and I were discussing tow-in surfing yesterday, after seeing > some of the new films. One guy said how much the huge turns they were > doing looked like a carve on a snowboard, and why does the board need fins > when it is up on edge at high speeds like that? A snowboard does’nt, a > wakeboard does’nt, bodyboards and mats don’t. How are these guy’s riding > waves without fins, and holding in? I think the truth is out there, and > like Dale said, we may need to only look at the past, to what we already > know. Heck, it’s been done, just maybe not to it’s fullest potential on a > stand up surfboard. I love knowing that surfcraft design is a never ending > process, and nothing is ever right or wrong. ryan Ryan, One of the fascinating advantages about objects that travel over and through water as opposed to non-liquids such as snow, is the fact that a given design
s contact with that water can be directed (pro and con) through the use of BOTH low and high pressure contours, i.e. rails, bottom surfaces and template. Surfcraft design is essentially a closed system, but within those parameters there still lies a universe of possibilties. For just a moment, imagine working with a material that has the potential to be custom-tuned for bouyancy and flexiblity, a substance that could be used for both conventional and alternative forms of surfing and would offer in one craft the speed and range of what several ones must currently provide. Imagine a surfcraft with edge control so predictably secure and yet sensitive, that fins were only an optional condiment rather than a strict necessity. Surfcraft also have the completely unique option of utilizing not only gravity and momentum, such as in other "boardsports" like snowboarding, but also the complex interplay between these factors and across the moving wave itself, where the water, relative to the sides and bottom of a craft are often in a state of constant directional and elevational change... as surfers, our playground is CURVED, and literally filled with the force of moving energy. Interestingly, during the early stages of snowboard evolution, small fins/rudders were tested and successfully used on some designs, primarily being limited to fresh (soft) powder conditions, prior to the widespread development of balanced sidecut with steel edges, tuned flex, template, length/width... and most significantly, the advent of BINDINGS to more efficiently translate the riders control to the edges at speed over harder and sometimes irregular surfaces (not to mention control while in the AIR!). When all the design elements were in place and balanced, dramatic performance levels were finally attainable over a wide range of conditions and velocities. Due to the incredible changes happening within the world of tow-in surfing, this should all sound strangely familiar! So, perhaps we can look to snowboarding as another graphic object lesson and gain fresh insight: time and experience have taught snowboard designers what conventional snow ski makers learned long before: that manueverability and speed are not necessarily mutually exclusive, and that through sophisticated edge and template design (and also tuned flexibility), it is possible to “have your cake and eat it, too.”
What about a surf vehicle that can be used under the water? Intead of sliding down the face of the wave, a surfer could ride encased inside the wave. Most of us have probably experienced being pulled over the falls after a failed attempt to duck under a big set. Imagine being able to ride behind a wave, being pulled up and forward by the water’s orbital energy instead of falling down the other side. Watching coral heads, sea life and foaming bubbles fly by as you hold on to the rolling freight train of energy in front of you. What would a dolphin think when it sees this strange visitor surfing his secret break? What kind of surf craft would spawn from this type of wave riding? Reverse rocker to hook onto the back of the wave? Moveable fins to allow the rider to turn under water and chase the barrel from behind? Handle bars? Or maybe boards would be replaced by some form of highly streamlined scuba gear.
What about a surf vehicle that can be used under the water? Intead of > sliding down the face of the wave, a surfer could ride encased inside the > wave. Now You’re Talkin’! Hey people, let those ideas fly and keep them coming! With this recent invention of “the Bulletin Board,” I think this is a great opportunity to accellerate humanity’s progress as a tribe of designers. Like they say, communication is key, unless of course, you’re into keeping all your ideas secret for the later use of personal glory. Jason, interesting think-tank you’ve opened up here. (I assume you’re serious.) I would assume, however, that you would need some pretty darn big waves to fit inside of. This probably wouldn’t be a vehicle for little California summer days. You’re also talking about some major research in physics and hydrodynamics. Nevertheless, great idea for researching! Although the surf culture isn’t noted as one that easily accepts “new” ideas (think “F.P.”, and no, I’m not a partner), until they somehow become a trend commercially, I say anything’s worth trying. But remember: Don’t give your pearls to pigs. But I think most here on this BB are mature, open-minded individuals. Right guys???
What about a surf vehicle that can be used under the water? Intead of > sliding down the face of the wave, a surfer could ride encased inside the > wave. Most of us have probably experienced being pulled over the falls > after a failed attempt to duck under a big set. Imagine being able to ride > behind a wave, being pulled up and forward by the water’s orbital energy > instead of falling down the other side. Watching coral heads, sea life and > foaming bubbles fly by as you hold on to the rolling freight train of > energy in front of you. What would a dolphin think when it sees this > strange visitor surfing his secret break?>>> What kind of surf craft would spawn from this type of wave riding? Reverse > rocker to hook onto the back of the wave? Moveable fins to allow the rider > to turn under water and chase the barrel from behind? Handle bars? Or > maybe boards would be replaced by some form of highly streamlined scuba > gear. Jason, Your comments reminded me that George Greenough
s current (Australian) 35mm film project, "Dolphin Glide" (and "The Making Of Dolphin Glide") is primarily shot while bodysurfing underwater with actual dolphins, giving a spectator the "I am part of a pod of surfing dolphins" point of view. To my knowledge, nothing like Georges 35mm dolphin film has ever been done before. As for other types of sub-surface wave riding, Laird Hamiltons hydrofoil idea is not new by any means, but he has the necessary media notoriety and ability level to promote it if he wants to... its foiled surfaces actually do "fly" under the surface of a wave, lifting the rider up at lower planing speeds than would usually be possible on the surface. Ive also seen an internet photo of a bodyboarder and his board on the South Shore (Hawaii) who has been doing something functionally similar for years, and hes in his late 60s or 70s, with almost no media attention! Theres a lot going on out in the waves that we haven`t even begun to tap into.
Hey Guys, Thanks for letting me know I’m not crazy (not too crazy at least). I remeber reading a magazine article where the bodyboarder, Mike Stewart, talked about riding, for quite some distance, submerged behind giant waves at places like pipeline and other North Shore spots. Lacking the fin propulsion of a dolphin, I would imagine that you would need a wave of significant size to get a decent ride. I wonder how you would go about getting yourself in position to catch an underwater wave? Deliberatly throw yourself over the falls in an attempt to penetrate the roof of a wave? Wait patiently upside-down in the impact zone untill a wave sucks you into riding position? Who knows? Imagine seeing a guy take off under water, cruise along behind the wave, burst through the face as the lip pitches out and unveil a modified kite that allows him to glide above the wave face like a bird?
no doubt about it, dual direction boards, that can be ridden reg.or fakie, have got to be one of the next big steps…seems like a finless design that works might open that up…great thread, this is what this site is all about.
I had the opportunity to watch dolphins over the course of a year while renting a house on the cliff in North County. Watching the dolphins surf monster surf in all dimensions was a major stoke. My pipe dream at the time was to design a climb in dolphin suit. Something to streamline the head and shoulders with an integrated snorkel and visor. From the head to the tail the whole thing would be flexible with the feet shoved into a mono fin. Elbows would be stuck into some side fins. The whole point was to make it as dolphin like as possible. After moving to Maui the idea never went anywhere as I realized that looking like a meal was could be unhealthy.
I had the opportunity to watch dolphins over the course of a year while > renting a house on the cliff in North County. Watching the dolphins surf > monster surf in all dimensions was a major stoke. My pipe dream at the > time was to design a climb in dolphin suit. Something to streamline the > head and shoulders with an integrated snorkel and visor. From the head to > the tail the whole thing would be flexible with the feet shoved into a > mono fin. Elbows would be stuck into some side fins. The whole point was > to make it as dolphin like as possible. After moving to Maui the idea > never went anywhere as I realized that looking like a meal was could be > unhealthy. Mook, Intriquing idea!! Regarding your thoughts on “looking like a meal”: just change exterior specs to that of a Great White, rather than a dolphin… might work really well for you at your favorite spots when they`re crowded, too.