saw some posts about fin systems and cant in concave bottoms with futures boxes
(Lokbox) "…one of the installers that works at a few of the bigger shops around here walked in. He read some of this and just laughed. He said, “yeah, the futures are a piece of cake…if you don’t care about angles. You get what you get, because you can’t really manipulate them side to side. Throw a piece of tape over it, and slam it in. Easy money! Concave boards end up with very little cant”
I posted this on another topic:
My shaper says that they have trouble with futures when a deep concave is involved - an issue regarding fin cant/box shape/concave = strength issues. It is also said that the ‘suspension system’ is not so good, an expensive band-aid and hated by glassers…
I am trying to escape the evil clutches of FCS and am happy with my futures boards but now this obstacle has come up and I don’t do glass-ons (lots of travel) and I don’t want a third fin system.
anyone have any insight into this futures vs. deep concave thing?
It’s all about the care that the installer takes putting them in. Flanged fin box systems rely upon the shallow perimeter cut and the casting of milled fibers and laminating resin that the boxes are set in. The thicker the cast the more room for adjustment. But, you end up with more weight and a more brittle scenario. Some shops go to great pains to install their fin systems well and some don’t. Cant is a factor that is often over looked. But, with Red X we went the extra mile to make angle legs at each degree to provide the installer with the most repeatable method available for setting cant.
my shaper says that with a deeper concave the futures box sits in its hole with a high side (center - sand down) and a low side (rail -fill with resin). he says if the concave is slight or the cant is less its o.k. but the change in cant is not really viable b’cuz of the performance results (don’t fix what works for wave riding for structural reasons) whereas the concave depth is more a matter of taste. he also says that futures are working on a way to address this but its not in production.
o.k. heres a new question:
who is making boards (7’0" x 18 3/8" x 2 7/8" roundpin with a 3/16’ - 1/4" concave throughout and futures fins)?
surely this is not super weird - I know I could order an almerrick like this any day of the week - are peole making these boards with structural confidence or a ‘failure is inevitable in all surfboards (fin systems)’ attitude…?
I do not want to be at g-land ever agin with some crap broken fcs garbage keeping me out of the water - break the plug, ding the bottom of your board and lose the fin in a minor impact? LAME.
I have broken so much fcs stuff - i have never broken futures and really like their range of templates and materials.
anyone out there who hates that ‘suspension system’? why?
b.t.w. my shaper is very respected and experienced, makes loads of boards ridden by known guys and his advice is always very thoughtful and good - he wouldn’t balk at this configuration if he didn’t have real concerns.
Howzit shreddoggie, Sorry to hear about you FCS problems, but I'd say it's an installation screw up. I've done a lot of FCS boards that go to G-land and the feed back has been great so far. I've looked into the problem and found that the failures are due to installers who are in a hurry since the more they do, the more money they make. The installers I've watched have a tendency to not ream out the holes a little bigger which will give a better bond to the deck or they will skip cleaning the plugs correctly which is a big no no. I even go so far as to guarantee my installations and will fix for free if it's an install screw up. If all board makers did this you would see a lot less failures since as an owner I would deduct the cost of the repair from the installers pay check, that would set them straight real fast. Dewey Weber was known for fining his workers for shoddy work which might not have made his workers happy but it did keep the the quality of his boards top notch. People who buy boards don't even know what kinds of mistakes are hidden in the factories. You've heard the old saying about buying a car that was built on Mondays or fridays, well it can also apply to the surfboard building business. I know of one company that fired their installer when they found out he was bring a 12 pack in to the factory (he worked by his self in the evening) and drinking while doing his installs which were failing quite a lot. The advantage to being a 1 man show board builder is that I make every board like it was going to be mine. In my mind there are no bad fin systems, only bad installations. Aloha,Kokua
Hello as a newcomer to this site, 4 years ago I also decided for FCS because its availability over the whole world, so all my boards have those plugs. My first I did the original way, but running over a plastic BIC ripped my fin and box out. So I now reinforce my boards where the finboxes come. When I started making concaves deeper than 1/2" this workedout even better. I make my own fins too because factory fins couldn’t satisfy me for bad profiles and flex.The fcs lumps on the fins I reenforce with kevlar, but with my system I never lost a box anymore, only broke some fins and not at a snap, but they break little by little, so nuf time to change it in time… That’s what I need in anckledeep water with head high barrels here in Holland, if it’s good it is only for two hours.I need fins and a board that work in microwaves and also when it gets more than overhead. I found out that a board and fins work together.
oh i started reading this from the begining and something about futures and reduced base area seemed to keep poping into my head, heard had i seen these finsrecently aside from sways? future no has trailer hatchet fins for their boards. oh my this thread is 2 years old roughly.i geuss they must have been afraid that bert or any other fin gurus would beat the to it?
Bump - oh excuse me, mister fin theory thread. Wasn’t watching where I was going. Well, maybe we’ll just leave you here, what with you being one of the most dominant threads of all time.
Rich, good to see you are still in the mix. I kept thinking I would burn a FF Tick and come out, but too much work. Please take some pic’s and keep us (me) up to date.
You can’t beat a 41 page thread about fin design from 2004.
I love the early polite discussion about cutaway bases from Bert, Tom, Kokua and then Daddios drawing of a reverse version of my twin blade fin.
Nothing’s really new but it can always be improved.
Thanks Newschoolblue, it’s full of great ideas and such politeness, which is why I signed up here, people sharing what they know and it goes on evolving.
I thought I might pull out some of the gems and list them for discussion.
Brett, if that’s your real name (ha?), please do pull out some gems. This was such a good thread.
There are so many good and useful threads, now hidden in cardboard boxes in the archives. I used to cut and paste them into a WORD doc, but gave up long ago.
@ GregTate , Id be interested in any other great threads you have stored ?
From the first line Bert hits us with new concepts… ( remembering that this was posted 12 years ago. )
1st. Halcyons Mental template.
2nd. Concave side fin foils.
3rd. Leading edge asymmetrical foils.
Oh boy, what a feast to begin with !
Looking. at Halcyons Mental Template, its a cutaway base.
Much like the Hockey Stick fins where they have a small base but most of the area up away from the board.
Has anyone ridden these type of fins ?
The real gem of information is this quote from Bert…
im blown away by how fast and free my board feels especially through turns…
im thinking (na that cant make that much difference ,i must have made a mistake on the setts ),i go in and change fins ,put a smaller set of standard fins in ,now my board is slower and stiffer???
now i think i know whats doing it ,so i go and make another set of something even more extreme …
a fin with both the trailing base cut away and the leading edge base cutaway…
looks weird …
WOW!!! even faster and more free feeling in the turns…
now a comment tom made to me in a previous discussion is the answer…
tom spoke about a layer of turbulent water that runs along the bottom of your board ,
that layer of turbulence is being caused by viscous drag or surface drag ,
now while its great for the bottom of your board ,its a nightmare for your fins…
if a plane flys through turbulence it can lose altitude rapidly as the wings cant function effectively in turbulence …
so if your fins have to deal with turbulence they dont function as well ,lose hold (like the plane falling)more drag ,especially at angles of attack…
the cut away in the leading and trailing edges lets the turbulent water pass under the fin ,so less of the fin has turbulent water pushed up against it in turns …
the part of a normal fin in contact with the board wont act efficiently ,have more drag ,less hold…
the cut away allows the fin to operate in a zone away from the board in cleaner greener water making it act more eficiently …
i have one more experiment that should work even better ,that is make a fin that looks like a RED X before its put in the box ,maybe even 2 super strong supports that have little area ,so the fin sits 12 to 15 mm off the board …
that should let as much of the turbulent water as possible under the fin allowing the fin the cleanest possible water to operate in …
tom i firmly know now that halycon has been onto something for years and the turbulence on the bottom of the board is the reason why…
