By the way; Asymetricals are like noseriders; One trick ponies. I like a board that goes right OR left . You are right "water is forgiving" and it's a good thing. Otherwise some of the "experiments" that are shaped here on Sways would be afraid of going any where near the water.
I just mark a new centerline when I layout the fin placement haahh.I measure up from the tail on the centerline and place a mark,then square off the centerline both ways toward the rail.I measure in from the rail and mark it on both sides then compare the numbers to the centerline to make sure its all good.If its like 1/16" off,I trash the project in a cro-magnon rage and start over.
Oh yea,1 1/4" in from the rail seems to work for me.
Well shame on me - 'cuz I still don’t buy any of it. And worse, or so I read, I don’t care. If what you are after is a board that looks, and measures symetrical with in 1/32" then go for it. I still maintain it is about fin-rail interaction and it matters little if one rail w/fin is 1/16" off from “center” to the other.
The asymetrical boards I’ve done/do go both ways, and I wouldn’t call 'em dogs either.
But, so as not to confuse newbies - Don’t pay much attention to me and my ugly boards. I just felt like playing uber-asshole a bit.
To be sure - It’s like fine arts: visual, writing, etc. You should know how to follow the rules before you start breaking them.
So listen to those guys… yet keep an open mind.
OK - Thanks for putting up with me… Carry on.
I just wanted to add that I am with Taylor on this one.
IMHO, the rail is more important than the center line when setting up fins. At the rail, there is a drastic change in the way the flow interacts with the board, and the change in flow defined by the rail is greater than just about any bottom contour (concave, vee, double concave) which defines the center line (from the perspective of the water flow).
Of course, it you are going for a symmetric board then it shouldn’t matter, but for a backyard hack like me, if my symmetry is off, I think it is better to have the fins aligned with the rail than the center line.
As I previously said; 'Set the rail if you can't salvage a shape otherwise'. If asymetric is your intent set the fin anywhere you want and justify it as some sort of radical experimental design that guys like Al and Rusty, Pat Rawson etc haven't been enlightened to yet. But you and Taylor keep at it: I'm sure the rest of the Shaping World will catch on to your innovations and that "curly-Q" light bulb will go on in their heads sooner or later..
Ok - You got me Ding… I’m gonna burn all my boards and go out and buy a Rust Al Rawson quiver right now…
Well, as far as I know, most of the pros set the fins off of the rails. I’d be surprised if Rusty, Al, or Pat set their fins off of the center.
It is fine to double check via the center line, but it is silly to set your fins off of the center. It doesn’t make sense from a hydrodynamic standpoint, a consistency standpoint, or production standpoint.
If you’re gonna build a board and put it in a rack, you better make sure that thing’s symmetrical… rails, fins, planshape, and all. But if you’re building a board for yourself, go ahead… have at it… make your bunion wells, add some extra volume to compensate for that hammer toe, adjust toe-in to accommodate that hangnail… hell, you could even give your corn a break with the right glass bill, if you think it will help you surf better.
And checking symmetry has nothing to do with setting the fins.
You don’t decide your method of fin placement based on the idea that you are going to check your symmetry at the same time. If you are going for symmetry, it should be within your tolerance before you go to set your fin marks.
i should have posed my question differently, i seemed to have sent some responses of on a slight tangent…my apologies.
No need to appologize,swaylocks is loaded with opinions.That’s whats so great about it though,you begin to look at things from many different angles due to so many different responses to a question.We do our best here to provide the most difficult and complicated answers to some of the simplest questions some times causing indigestion of the thought process.
I think the distance from the tail depends on the tail width and also the length of the board. For a standard shortboard at say 14.25" at the tail, 1.25" is fine. For an eight footer gun at 10.25 tail, that far from the rail is most likely not a good choice, maybe go 7/8" or so to separate the fin cluster. It probably also makes a difference depending on how far up from the tail the fins are too.
I'm more interested in Bud's comment about having the tips of the fins sticking out past the rail line. I've always thought it was good to have that tip stick out a bit, especially with the v-panel bottoms.
Well some are just too dense to appreciate the concept. Maybe the two of you could let every shaper and glass shop from Santa Cruz to Ensenada and the Hawaiian Islands know what they are doing wrong. An Al, Rusty, Rawson quiver would be an improvement. . If your boards were symetrical you might be able to sell them . Burning boards is high polution. Nothing personal meant and not theory either. Just been around enough to Kow.
Please McDing - You do not know me, my boards, or my surfing.
It’s sad to me to see you going down the negative path, and using personal attacks.
The only point I’ve been going after is the original question, and my personal opinion about “the center”/symmetry.
You seem to make a lot of assumptions about me and my boards, based on what, I don’t know.
Best to you and yours -
[quote="$1"]
Please McDing - You do not know me, my boards, or my surfing.
It's sad to me to see you going down the negative path, and using personal attacks.
The only point I've been going after is the original question, and my personal opinion about "the center"/symmetry.
You seem to make a lot of assumptions about me and my boards, based on what, I don't know.
Best to you and yours -
[/quote]
Hey Taylor - I've been watching from the sidelines, and I agree, I hate to see a thread veer off in this direction. I like your posts and imput here, and I like your wild experimental stuff. Love to hear your theories on the subject too.
But it seems to me that when you use terms like "pure crap", "irrelevant" "I don't buy it" and "I don't care" in reaction to someone's posts, you are heading down that "negative path", and making it personal. People come on here and willingly share their hard-earned insights for free, which is a good thing, even if you disagree. Calling it pure crap is bound to generate some negativity. If you then describe your motive as "I just felt like playing uber-asshole a bit", I wouldn't take any reaction you get too personally. Just my 2 cents.
I think there is validity in both viewpoints, and the difference is probably who you're shaping for. If you're gonna put your stuff in a retail rack with a $500+ price tag, then symmetry and technical accuracy becomes more of an issue. If you're building for yourself or your surfing buds, its a different game. For me, surfing is just fun time. Seems like Swaylocks should fit into that category.
The original question was one I’ve wondered about and so far only Taylor O in his first response gave an answer-
Too close to rail, loss of fin action too soon
Too far from rail, loss of fin rail interaction, but it disipates slower.
Then we got into a pissing contest about how to measure the placement. But back to the original question. When you look a quads, some rears are very close to the rail , ie Griffin, others are probably over an inch and half in (the ones I see Slater riding). Now from my experience of riding a Griffin style set up I don't see/feel "the loss of fin action" that Taylor O speaks of. I also don't understand what is meant by, "...loss of fin rail interaction" and "..disspating slower." I would like to hear more about the effects of the placement (and not about measuring the placement). I remember ProboxLarry tried to explain to me once about the different applications of outboard vs inboard quads but there were too manmy resin fumes in his shop and I lost track of his explanation...
hi there,
i have been following this thread too,
as a shaper myself, i understand the relationship between toe-in/out , splay/cant, fore & aft more than most due to my involvment in 4 ways.
When we developed the "OFFSET" inter-Disc we wanted to show shapers and surfers what was possible when moving the fins closer to the rail line or deeper in towards the stringer ( so our first prototype discs were created using a 1/8" off set).
the noticeable effects of moving the SAME fins in the same position ( but closer to the rail ) were, the board reacted quicker rail-to-rail as if it is was 1" shorter which was amazing for smaller conditions .... with the same set of fins it felt like i had a shorter surfboard, supa-responsive rail to rail and snappier in the smaller weaker beach-breaks!
Converserly, moving the fins inwards towards the stringer by 1/8" made the board feel like it had more drive and control off the bottom turns, which was a benefit in bigger bowly waves with exactly the same set of fins in the same position... almost feeling like u were riding a 1" longer board...
either way u look at it, what was VERY interesting to note personally, was how each board i rode felt different when i applied the offset-discs...
i swear it was like riding a NEW surfboard, each time...
hope this helps in some way,
regards
Deano
Huck - I appreciate your view. I realize my comments may have come across as personal to those who posted. Unfortunatley, my personal, biased opinion was not seen as just that. I meant nothing personal to others who hold different opinions than me.
llilibel03 - This is what I posted as a quote Blakestah:
**Fins further outboard than 1.125" from the rail get real pivot-y/draggy (in turns). The water needs to re-attach behind the fin before it exits over the rail. If not, you lose the interactions with the bottom of the board, and a lot of re-direction capability. Moving inboard will weaken the fin but the interaction will stay basically the same, and it is much less sensitive than moving it outboard.**
**These measures are taken from the rear base of the fin to the vertical projection of the rail.**
Deano - That’s some great info, but did you mean the boards felt 1 foot longer/shorter?
What happened to the offset disks?
By the way - I’m planning of posting a thread about how stoked I’ve been on my 4way boxes, and your customer service.
Huckleberry,
Your comments are well timed and as black and white as it gets ...... must be some grey hair between those ears somewhere (lol) (lol)
What Taylor O doesn't seem to understand is the way he elected to express what he thought about the practice of keeping your shapes as true as possible, not only pissed thread contributors off, but also anyone who takes pride in their craft ...... both professional and private
I in no way am disagreeing with either of parties comments but ask myself how many " real magic boards" would eventuate if time, trouble and pride didn't go into our craft in trying to hand craft something special to complement the buzz we get out of surfing
Taylor O now repost's holding hands in air and amends his intent. With that sort of deplomacy we need him in the middle east
After my post and the comments that followed ...... "I felt special" ..... Felt no need to contribution on getting shapes spot on
I won't change my ways ...... and being on the wrong side of fifty with some grey hair I pride myself on the consistancy I achieve with more than the odd magic board under my wings ...... you can't ammend, change or improve anything if you havn't got a solid point to start from
Deano thank God you chimed in much much appreciated
McDing, I'm still with you and I appreciate that Taylor O's method and contribution would bring the worse out in anyone,(which probably causes him probs) ..... but mate, pull your head in don't inflame ..... to each his own !!!
W