Fins Complaint

Excuse the double fin post. Has anyone ever come across a magic fin set up? That’s magic fin set up not magic board. Do you find it hard to differentiate between the two? I sure do. Maybe it’s because fins are an afterthought for many surfers.

For me it’s mainly because there’s so many god damn templates, foils etc but little explanation from any most fin companies about what it all means.

FCS seem to have made a lot of effort to match fins, riders and waves with their fin selector. Now if a fin manufacturer would make the same effort for positioning, toe in and cant for a variety of boards and set ups (such as singles, twins, quads etc) that would be great. I ask this because I’m assuming that certain outlines, foils etc work better in certain cants, toes etc.

No offense to any fin manufacturers, but I would appreciate less guess work when it comes to that sort of thing. Or maybe just some plain 'ole fin theory on your website(s).

Yes I know there is plenty of info on fin theory in the archives, but how about some from the manufacturers themselves?

Personal perception. Some set ups work for some people and some don’t. Even though were the same size and surfing ability and surf the same wave your perfect sin setup might not work for me. Do like chip fish and make some and surf them. Don’t forget som pictures of your work.

agreed. you’d think they’d want you to nail the fin angles, placement, etc. Since a surfer with a magic board will probably associate the magic with the fin system and fins just as much as with the shape of the board.

Shouldn’t working with the fin and system manufacturer be like working with a shaper when ordering a custom board?

Isn’t this why we love Larry?

“Shouldn’t working with the fin and system manufacturer be like working with a shaper when ordering a custom board?”

Ok boyz, think about it ~ You go to the surf shop and hook up with a shaper. He builds you a board and recommends a fin set-up for it. That’s part of what you’re paying for when have a local shaper build you a board. If you buy a stock board from Merrick, Stretch, Jacobs, or Freeline it’ll come with a set of fins or a single that will compliment it for most conditions. That’s the way the pros do it.

Now a another way to do it pick up a board that appeals to you, be new or used, and try to figure out what fins will serve it best. Well, friends there are so many options out there and board configurations that there is no way in hell any fin company can even attempt to address them all in combination. If you think you can have fin theory and the broad spectrum of set-up application dropped in your lap you’re dreamin’.

Putting the right fin set-up on a board for the conditions to be ridden and the guy that’s going to ride them doesn’t come in a box. There’s a huge amount of understanding that goes into this selection process. Ask any high level surfer that is working with a shaper directly. A small change for one him or her can have a huge effect on board performance and be the difference in making the semifinals or just surfing a heat and going home.

There is no quick rode to education. Either put in your time or stay uninformed.

Gone Fishin’, Rich

Yes.

I’ve never ridden a bonzer that didn’t work for me, to some degree or another. 3 out of the 5 I’ve had have been magic.

Conversely, I’ve never ridden a thruster that I’ve liked.

thank you for your post,

the thing is, there are solutions!

4 way fin system has them for the shaper/surfer.

The hardest decision is only left to choose a fin that suits your weight catagory.

We at www.4wfs.com are assisting surfers and shapers with the process of helping them make the right choices.

with being able to change toe-in and out, up-down and splay/cant options,

1 set of fins goes a long way for a multitude of surfers and different surf conditions.

Regards

Deano

You may find that this link helps you with the quad fin department. http://www.mckeesurf.com/brucemckee/multisystem.htm

Twin fins, I find, are best at around 7" to 7-1/4" inches forward as is also the case with single-fins. Twins work well toed-in around 1/4" with a 7 to 8 degree splay… but there must be more opinions and more exacting data.

                                     Cheers.

…I have great success putting the single fins (9" with more vertical rake, less base, semi flex so less tip area) at 9" from the tail in 9 2´´ longb

so I m very comfident to not use a box and go glass on

Already checked it and used it! Thanks for posting that info by the way. Something like this, (maybe not so specific) from fin manufacturers would be nice I think. Add in what type of board it’s suited for, (sometimes it’s reasonably obvious) and away you go.

My 7" up for single fins is definitely for short-boards under…6’9".? Always preferred a box and a lever action tab screw for quick adjustment in the line-up.

Have never done a formula position for single fins,…

…but for those willing to try out a long-board quad with a system that allows a great variety of mixes, check formula and photos at http://www.mckeesurf.com/brucemckee/longboards.htm

  Riders have been happy with front fins around M5 to M3 or YU and smaller cut-down size etc and I enjoy the flexed rake finned feel of G1000 double foils on the back. Fins don't need to be large to hang in. The aim is to get the mix with a balance of hold, looseness and redirection. I have had fantastic performance in all types of surf.

Sorry, no vids or action photos. Have neglected this area… look forward to the feedback.

While you are here, would you have any recommendations for cant and toe on a 9’1 longboard, 22.25 inches wide and 14.25 inches through the tail. Last one was one degree of cant and toe on the rears and three degrees of cant and toe on the fronts and went nicely. Now I’m not sure whether to keep it the same for next one, or whether to go for more cant or toe or less. The possibilities are many! Thanks in advance for any help.

Hi Bruce,

Been a while,

where are u in the world these days?

I must say, your quad placements inspired me from day one,

most of my shortboards are now 6 1/2" and 11 1/4" all with 4 ways,

which obviosuly allows me a huge range of options.

Good to see you posting,

best regards

Dean Geraghty

Deano

I believe that is why I wrote this article some six years ago: “Fins get no respect”

When you walk into your favorite surf shop and get all goggle eyed over the masterpieces in the racks, it’s not the fins you’re drooling over. Think about it for a minute though. What is a surfboard, but a summation of hydrodynamic surfaces. Just as an airplane generates lift from its wings and control from its tail; your board’s bottom generates lift and affects speed. But, it’s your fins working together with rail and bottom contour that most influence the feel of your board when turning. And let’s face it how many short boarders straight-line the waves they ride.

Few surfers really understand how fins affect the way their board rides and leave all the specifics to someone else. Rail and bottom contour assist fins in performing their function. But, what really influences the way your board turns is the combination of several important fin factors. No wonder so few surfers pay attention to the “Fin Affect”. It’s f’n complicated!

But, today, as the form shape of surfboards goes through finer and finer adjustments, the biggest gains you can make to your board’s performance have to do with your fins. The predominant factors that influence your “Fin Affect” are:

  1. Foil Shape- the curvature from leading edge to trailing edge as it changes from base to tip.

  2. Template shape- The combination of depth, width, and rake that make up the profile outline of the fin.

  3. Placement- which incorporates how far the fins are from the back of the board, how far apart they are from one another, toe and camber.

  4. Stability and flex.

Let’s discuss each of these and how changing them will affect the way your board performs.

Foils are surfaces that affect lift and drag. If you notice an airplane wing has a flat side on the bottom and curved side on the top. The path of least resistance is the bottom side. It takes more effort (drag) to flow around the curved top surface, so more air flows under the wing than over. This creates high pressure under the wing. The air that does flow over the wing separates from the wing at the apex of the leading edge of the wing and creates a low-pressure area above the foil and a higher pressure area below. This difference in pressure forms the force (lift) that allows the wing to go up. The more curve a foil has the more drag it induces over the curved surface; which means that a foil with greater curvature will have more lift at lower speeds. The problem is that at higher speeds that additional drag will develop turbulence and stall the flow across the foil. The exact same scenario occurs under water with side fins. The big difference is that instead of lifting your tail out under water; Side fins orient the curved surface so that they actually pull your boards fin and rail down into the water. This gives you hold when cranking a nasty slash. Consequently, thicker more curvy foils for slow waves and flatter more fine foils for high-speed waves.

Template shape has to do with how the fin looks in profile. An over simplification would be deeper, rakier & wider fins provide more control. But, the more profile you have the more fin you drag around. So, you have to optimize the combination of the three so that it is loose enough for your conditions. Yet, it is also tight enough to not get too squirrelly on you. Other factors that figure into requiring more or less of these three variables are:

  1. Type of wave: steep and heavy or slopey and fun.

  2. Surface conditions: Choppy and irregular or clean and smooth.

  3. Rider Size: Big and heavy or small and featherweight.

  4. Rider Style: Subtle and flowing or Extreme and radical.

Each of the first considerations requires more fin template area and each of the second work better with less.

Placement has traditionally been left to convention. Simon Anderson set a benchmark twenty years ago for approximate location. Each shaper has their own personal preference for each of the “models” they make. But, there are subtle differences in most boards and in all riders. Otherwise why would custom boards be in such demand?

And remarkably as little as an 1/8" movement fore or aft in either or both the center fin or the side fins can have almost as much effect as going from a rakey 4 ¾" fin to a vertical 4 5/8" fin. If you move your fins closer together they act looser and if you spread them further apart they get tighter.

Toe is the amount of angle the base of your side fins are pointed in towards the center of the board relative to the leading edge and trailing edge at the base. Camber is the amount of angle the body of your fin is set at relative to an imaginary horizontal plane perpendicular to your stringer. Both affect the angle of attack that your fin foils experience as they flow through the water. More angle forces more water flow around the outside plane at lower speeds. The net affect is that it becomes easier to initiate turns on slower waves. To much angle at higher speeds increases turbulence and drag.

Finally, stability and flex are crucial to making this all click. If you have a deeper fin you can get away with more tip-flex and not wash out. The benefit of tip flex is that it dampens or smoothes out some of the bite in direction changes. The down side of tip flex is that if you get too much tip flex it will wash out. Base stability is crucial to a good set of fins. If a fin moves around at the base it will set up turbulence. Turbulence generates drag and disturbs the lift, which keeps you fins holding. So it is slow and out of control. If you like a more pivoty board you would do well to try a stiffer set of smaller more vertical fins.

Prior to eight years ago the only options a surfer had to muck with all these variables was to grind his glass-on fins off and install a slightly different set in a slightly different location and record the differences until they found the optimum. Not very likely. So, with the exception of a few elite pros, we all lived with what we were given. Now with the advent of removable fins (i.e. FCS, Future, Lock Box, OAM and O’Fish’l) you can at least muck with the first two “Fin affect factors”. But, if you want the ability to dial in your board with all four factors you have got to try the newest competitor to the fin system market Red X.

Tom O’Keefe

Thanks for the reply. It made a lot of things clearer for me.

Quote:

I believe that is why I wrote this article some six years ago: “Fins get no respect”

“Now with the advent of removable fins (i.e. FCS, Future, Lock Box, OAM and O’Fish’l) you can at least muck with the first two “Fin affect factors”. But, if you want the ability to dial in your board with all four factors you have got to try the newest competitor to the fin system market Red X.”

Tom O’Keefe

hi Tom,

u refer to Red X to dial your board in with all 4 factors, you sure you don’t mean 4 Way Fin System / 4ways? or was that 6 years ago u were referring to?

Don’t know of any other system today that can do everything that we can do to fin adjustment, that’s why we believe we are the Leaders in Fin Adjustability.

Ps: i hope a lot more shapers read what you wrote 6 years ago!

hit the nail on the head!

Deano