Firewire and Bert Burger Part Ways

Industry Talk
101
Quote:

So you’re happy with the FW, that’s good, but what about the failure rates that have been stated here, X per 1000 boards…

I’m sure Sunovas never had that type of failure rate, do you think shortcuts are being made in FWs for the sake of production rates…

If they are then it’s not really Berts tech anymore, is it?

cheers

Hicksy

Quote:

With all due respect, how can you be sure of Sunova’s “failure rate” vs. that of the Firewires? It could be that more boards being ridden by more riders in varying conditions make it seem like there are more breakages of Firewires (I assume that’s what you mean by failure) than Sunovas.

102

hey Rod , i dont work for Firewire either and i am not in the surf industry at the moment as well …

i dont even own a sanding block at the moment , so i guess we have something in common …

Na actually we dont , im using my real name , im not an alias , stuck in as a plant to generate viral marketing…

nice try but im cutting you off there …

i was seriously impressed by how quick you were detected by a few long time lockers who can read between the lines very well …

treat this place with respect and it comes back , try and use it up to your advantage and people get suspicious …

sorry for blowing your cover , guess youll need a new name now , wonder if that blows all your surfer posts to ??

bummer , you pumped a year into that alias …

i would like to make one other point while im here …

some of the speculation is getting a little extreme which seems to be feeding more speculation …

a lot of stuff is still up in the air at the moment …

so unless i come back kicking and screaming , for now things are taking there coarse …

sorry again Rod , but dont appreciate having a serious matter abused by another shameless marketing opportunity …

would have been better off if you stayed out completly …i know your just doing your job , but i have to think of my future as well , be nice to think its a level playing field …

see you in CA sometime …

we should go have a beer again , reckon we will look back and have a laugh , when all this settles down …

who knows , when i get cranked up ,i may even be in need of a good marketing guy ?? that is if you happen to be unemployed …

have to watch that anti poaching clause …

regards

BERT

103

Whooowe! Bert drops the monkey bomb! This thread is really lighting up.

Anyway, this is off topic but since it looks like you’re listening I’d like to take this opportunity to thank you Bert for that fin making thread. I never thought I’d try to make my own wood fins but a little inspiration from Oldy and Chip and the illustrated step by step instructions from you and even I could make a passable set of fins. I’ll post some pics soon. Thanks again. Everyone here owes you a debt of gratitude for one thing or another I’m sure.

104
Quote:

sorry for blowing your cover , guess you’ll need a new name now , wonder if that blows all your surfer posts too

Holy snapping a$$h0les Bertman!!!

Did he use the same user name at SM, might be worth a look!!!

105

Bert,

Whatever you do I hope you resume posting here at Swaylocks to your “Latest Creations” thread. Looking forward to seeing some killer Sunova’s!

106
Quote:

and away it goes, but what’s behind it is just another vacuum bagged eps/balsa board, similar to what a lot of people are making…

in a lot of ways i agree with you roy

but

just because they look the same and are of the same materials

doesnt make them the same

ive built 20 odd and each one has different flex patterns and durability

it has taken my 20 odd plus the 17 other people who i correspond with who have also built similar amounts or more,

to develop build processes that maintains consistent and predictable flex patterns

using a poly board as a starting reference (flexible)and a surftech at the other end of the scale(stiff).

so collectively it has taken over 200 odd boards to get even close to producing a saleable board

in both consistency of flex and cosmetics

so there is somewhat of a mystery

that costs money and time and creative thinking to discover

but yeah i dont believe its an exclusive mystery

its easy to build a compsand

but takes a lot of research and creative thought to build a good one

107

True Silly, and here’s hoping that Bert will spend more time here, he is missed by nearly everyone I think.

:slight_smile:

108

for sure

i was thinking the other day that the main reason i was supporting firewire on the forum

just because bert and josh were there

and we all dig them

109

Hey Bert - What ever you need, I’d like to help. Could I lend you anything? Skil, $, you name it .

Swayway Fest

110
Quote:

we should go have a beer again , reckon we will look back and have a laugh ,

And in fact, wouldnt it be cool if more people behaved this way more often…money; always getting in the way of our best intentions.

111

I think it’s pretty clear that I’m not a FW marketing troll.

I have one and I really like it. It came from the first batch to hit my area. It feels like a poly board to me. I surf OK–skill level average (for someone whose life completely revolves around it) so I’m probably not as tuned in as some folks.

It doesn’t feel like a surf teck. It doesn’t have a particularly noticeable flex in average waves. I have felt the load up sensation in waves in the Head to DOH range (my last trip). It floats well. It’s light. The light weight is a little unusual in windy conditions. No pressure dings after a few months and 2 flights.

The laps are becoming more visible on the bottom for some reason–darkening. I’m not sure why.

Concerns about dings and sucking water are stressful for me when surfing rocky areas and shallow reefs.

I’ve done some of my best turns and had some of my best rides on it. I like to think this is because I’m getting better at surfing. I think it also has alot to do with expectations and confidence in the equipment. When I got it, I really expected to go out and rip, and I sort of did (for me anyway).

112
Quote:

have to watch that anti poaching clause …

regards

BERT

Anti poaching laws…monopoly laws and the like only benefit big corporations who have money to defend them. The rest of us get as much justice as we can afford and not a penny more. It’s who can outlast who. Just about all surf clothing companies break the law daily by not opening dealers because of other dealers or shutting down dealers because of other dealers. Same with Merrick, Tech, and wire etc. Sooner or later all the small shops will figure out the holy grail is not on the big companies and if they can do something different and stick around long enough to see the big shops and companies self destruct…they might have something. However…it’s hard in an industry where the most markup is from manufacture to retail…not from wholesale to retail. All in all… in my personal opinion…it was never an industry to begin with, someone had to make up a bunch of shit to sell to people so they could call it one. When you keep that thought in mind avoiding all industry types is the thing to do with anything you have created. Why let them have it?

Best of wishes Bert…glad to see you back and with the same old fighting spirit.

113

Listen,

I am not employed nor have I ever been employed or had any affiliation with any company selling surf related anything.

Again, for the record, I read swaylocks to find information on surf craft. I read all the threads on compsand, epoxy, vac bagging, fins, parabolic rails, etc. The logic in these threads, especially arguments coming from Bert Burger, lead me to believe that these types of boards are worthy of pursuing. In San Diego the only option, other than building one yourself, which I have no time for, was a FireWire. I didn’t need Surf Magazines, awards, or deep pocket corporate backers to validate the technology. It all made sense when I read about them so I bought one to find out for myself fully knowing that this was a watered down version of the Sunova boards Bert was reporting on here. I’d find out for myself.

For the record, this is where I stand regarding the 6’6 FlexFire I bought from k5 in Encintas California for $795 last October:

  1. It is a really good surfboard.

  2. It flexes and returns to shape like no other surfboard I have ever ridden.

  3. It is holding up very well relative to Pu/Pe surfboards I normally ride in this size and weight. I have only found some small dimpling on the deck. No cracks, yellowing, or regular pressure dents found on my Pu/Pe boards.

  4. I found it works best for me with M5’s on the side and M3’s in the back for most days. Not the M7’s they sold with the board.

  5. It has not delaminated after repeatedly storing it bagged in my hot car.

  6. There is nothing like it when you lay into a turn and the board loads up and springs you out. Snowboarding is the only way to describe it.

Here are my concerns:

1)My board does not like heavy water or chop after the waves pass 4 or 5 feet. It loves clean conditions. That leads me to believe that flex/return is a tough variable to tune into a mass produced, one size fits all, for every day use, surfboard.

  1. Flex/return is not as important as plain shape, foil, fin, and volume. Get these variables wrong but add perfect flex/return and the board will be a desaster. I have plenty of similarly shaped Pu/Pe short boards that ride well that do not have parabolic rails, etc. That for me puts flex/return in perspective. Flex/Return is only like 10% - 15% percent of the equation. And it really only shines on big turns.

  2. I have no idea how to fix this board if it gets damaged. It will be a pain to find or fit chunks of balsa and the other secret sauce they build with to repair such an exotic construction. I know people who weight their Firewires to keep any eye on them from drawing water.

  3. I have no idea if any professional ding repair people in Southern California really know how to fix this board if it is damaged.

  4. I have no idea if the failure rate is high or not.

  5. I don’t see any of the firewire marketing based around jumping up and down on them any more. Funny how that quickly went away. That, and Bert punching his was a selling point for me.

  6. The Firewires on the racks in the shops around here do not look like the one I bought. By my eye the shapes are not as clean and there is definitely less wood on the rails.

  7. When I saw a video of the ASR show and FireWire was touting there limited edition carbon fiber models, I realized that custom surfboards is not coming soon.

I can’t get a custom Firewire. Firewire or FutureShapes say there coming, but I’m not going to wait around. There are boards I am missing that I need today. This is were I am forced to look for other builders who can build the boards I need. Fortunately, Bert Burger, Firewire, the closure of Clark Foam, etc have stirred the pot. There are way better options than there were before all this controversey. So, I am optimistic. Locally, people have embraced epoxy. That’s huge. I buy around four boards a year. I am forced too because surfing is hard on equipment, but mostly because the glass cracks out or the deck delams. If I could get boards to last longer I could spend that money somewhere else or on other boards or wetsuits or trips.

Bert, I’ll buy a custom board built by you in a heart beat. I think your still on it. The people who’s only choice was to build there own know your on it. The builders whom you have inspired and are now discontent with the old way, know your on to something.

How many of the fan boy suck ups, lazy Pu/Pe foam scrapers, or lawn mowers, on this forum will put there money where there mouth’s are?

114

Wow I am glad we cleared up all of that. Since “Rod” is still missing or in denial can I take his place and buy you a few beers next time you are in CA.

Christian

.

115
Quote:

1)My board does not like heavy water or chop after the waves pass 4 or 5 feet. It loves clean conditions. That leads me to believe that flex/return is a tough variable to tune into a mass produced, one size fits all, for every day use, surfboard.

  1. Flex/return is not as important as plain shape, foil, fin, and volume. Get these variables wrong but add perfect flex/return and the board will be a desaster. I have plenty of similarly shaped Pu/Pe short boards that ride well that do not have parabolic rails, etc. That for me puts flex/return in perspective. Flex/Return is only like 10% - 15% percent of the equation. And it really only shines on big turns.

Functional flex is much harder to get right with a shortboard than it is with a longboard. :slight_smile:

116

re. firewire business decisions

maybe they thought that they’d take a shot at it

and if it didnt work they’d have the opportunity to discredit it

and any future attempts by competitors to get it to the show.

and continue to make tonnes of cash using mass produced pu/pe tech

and associated paraphernalia

sounds out there i know

but some of these big players can be pretty nasty

117

I didn’t realise Greg was part of FW,

Quote:

GregLoehr

Member since: Tue Mar 23 2004

Location: Tucson AZ

Status: Barnacle

Re: [KeithMelville] Firewire in Asia take Two: Bert’s boards made In AsiaPosted: Apr 21, 2006, 1:01 AM

Post # 75 of 151 ( 1745 views) [In reply to] | Quote | Reply

The set up is in San Diego and Burleigh Heads, Australia … both. The demand is in both countries and we are looking to fill that demand from factories in both countries. We also have American designers who are going to be dialing in US conditions both right and left coasts. The designer will also be working together drawing knowlege and inspiration to move surfboards forward. Firewire is a team effort.

Great words Bert.

Then I had a look around the web and found this link…

http://www.warvelsurf.com/products_wmd.html

A subsidary of http://www.warvel.com/products.htm

Greg’s also Head of RR…

Maybe this is why they don’t need Bert anymore…

Outsourcing blank production to another company…

Blank machined using APS3000, glassed using RR…

Could this be true?

118

Hicksy’s post edited by John Mellor ?

??

119
Quote:

2) Flex/return is not as important as plain shape, foil, fin, and volume. Get these variables wrong but add perfect flex/return and the board will be a desaster. I have plenty of similarly shaped Pu/Pe short boards that ride well that do not have parabolic rails, etc. That for me puts flex/return in perspective. Flex/Return is only like 10% - 15% percent of the equation. And it really only shines on big turns.

ok , i can already see your preparing the next round of adds ,for the surf mags…

need a new angle now hey ?

you can have the perfect board in all respects ,a carbon copy of your all time favouite , build the wrong flex in and you have a disaster …

ask Taj what his last board rode like ?? should i quote him ?

its the whole package that makes magic …

take any ingredient out and you got a board you have to sell …

Rod , do me a favour and lie low …

after dealing with a heavy deed of release today …

its not gonna take much to tip me over the edge …

best for all concerned if i dont have a reason to say something dumb …

unless thats part of the plan ?

if i was your boss , i would be pulling you out ,right about now …

coincidentally , all your previous posts have been associated with firewire ??

any reason you have such a fascination with firewire ??

regards

BERT

120

Sorry Roy,

I copied that from my view which has users ip address etc…

As a mod squad member, it’s a slightly different view from what you see…

I f***ed up, and John fixed it…

He also let me know that he had done it…

Apologies for the confusion…

Back to normal transmission…