Bill
I am so glad that you have stayed with this forum. It seems sometimes you and a few other level minded people are the only ones keeping this place grounded in a bit of reality.
The politics, assumptions, hearsay and yes sometimes lies were not part of the Swaylocks I knew and loved.
Thanks again
Christian
So Bill - Shifting a little here... Why did you deside to sell Firewires in Hawaii? Also wondering if you know there point of origin, maker. Or, if that matters to you?with respect,
==ep
Aloha EP
Great question. Thanks for giving me a chance to explain.
I have a fairly singular and simple sort of primary business philosophy.
Basically it is, serving customers and making them happy to the best of my ability within the staffing, financial and time constraints that all businesses must function within. I am not perfect at it. It is the most challenging and difficult task I have ever embarked upon. But customers being happy is the basic goal.
Because of this I must constantly read consumer temperment, their desires, fads and directions. Sometimes it is exhausting often it is fun. Being in touch with consumers and their ever changing desires is a huge challenge. It is my job to provide them with the products and services they desire and remain adequetly profitable while do so, such that I can pay my bills, retain my staff and … well… basically have a life and not be a burden to anyone else. And in fact, be a giver not a taker.
If I serve the customers well the rest generally falls into place. And if my suppliers and other associates in the delivering of products and services also do their part well, customers will continue to be well seved over the long haul.
We all know the story of Bert and Firewires start. Firewire is clearly a sought after brand. This wasn’t particularily hard to see or anticipate, as the players involved were significant and the marketing was substantial and effective. Plus new things have a certain magic all on their own.
So the simple answer to your question of why I sell Firwires is that customers want them and I am in the business of delivering to customers what they want. Which is the case, with pretty much everything we sell in the store or services we provide. Of course, I don’t have every product or service that I would like to deliver to customers. For example, I would love to have a talented and responsible ding repair guy. Customers need and want it. I can’t deliver it because the “human” factor hasn’t materialized. Everything else is in place… but nobody is standing in the gap to fill it.
Looking forward in the supply chain, the customer is my primary focus. Looking backwards down the supply chain there are many other players and associates needed to bring satisfaction to the customer. In the case of Firewire, the local rep is a very good friend and great guy who also reps Dakine which we sell. Mark Price is the President and was a team rider of mine way back when. Nev is an old friend, and while I have never met Bert face to face, he seems like a fine fellow that I hope to count among my good friends someday. So, I had no reservations about carrying Firewire in my shop and while the recent developments regarding Bert are dissapointing, I am still comfortable with Firewire, as long as customers are.
Now as to where Firewires are made. Who really knows and could I really find out if I even wanted to know? Currently they are made in Australia and San Diego CA. I have heard rumors, as maybe some of you have. But I don’t bother with them until they effect me or I can verify them. As long as the product is good and customers want it, the rumors true or false are really not significant. Of course, I wisely watch and listen so as to be one jump ahead of both any positive or negative changes that might effect my ability to serve my customers well. But I don’t panic at every change or shift in the status of things or where the manufacturing of the items might be done. To be honest, we sell zillions of things in my store from zillions of suppliers. Fact is we get gobs of boxes of stuff delivered every day to us and… rarely do those boxes have anything other than “made in China” marked on them. It is quite amazing really to have watch this change happen so fast.
Frankly, I have always been amazed at how bad our Hawaiian surf industry has managed itself. It is tragic really, that many people come to Hawaii seeking to buy brands of surfboards and clothes made elsewhere. In an era now gone, the world looked toward Hawaii as the pinnacle of surfboard design and construction. No one would ever buy a California board here on their Hawaiian vacation and take it home with pride. And no shops here would stock anything but local boards popularized by local riders and board builders. AHHHH how times have changed!
Where, geographically speaking, products are made matters very little to me. I would prefer everything I sell to be made as local as possible. But that train left the station long ago and doesn’t look like it is coming back anytime soon. In the meantime, customers still want their needs met and their perception of the appropriate quality & price ratio is now set by world wide forces and I cannot stray too far from those accepted norms or my customers will not feel or be well served by my business.
I, of course, still build my boards by hand, locally and where I can I try to help or support others in their endeavors. But it isn’t a religion. It is my craft. And I try not to connect too much drama or quasi morality to it, so that I can stay well focused on filling my customers needs.
That was one of the most clear-headed posts I’ve seen on swaylocks.
Quote:So Bill - Shifting a little here… Why did you deside to sell Firewires in Hawaii? Also wondering if you know there point of origin, maker. Or, if that matters to you?
with respect,
==ep
Hi Bill…Great to see you posting again. Nice post. Aloha EP
Great question. Thanks for giving me a chance to explain.
I have a fairly singular and simple sort of primary business philosophy.
Basically it is, serving customers and making them happy to the best of my ability within the staffing, financial and time constraints that all businesses must function within. I am not perfect at it. It is the most challenging and difficult task I have ever embarked upon. But customers being happy is the basic goal.
The only thing that matters if you want to stay in Business. Of course there are many ways to do this. Good philosophy BTW
Because of this I must constantly read consumer temperment, their desires, fads and directions. Sometimes it is exhausting often it is fun. Being in touch with consumers and their ever changing desires is a huge challenge. It is my job to provide them with the products and services they desire and remain adequetly profitable while do so, such that I can pay my bills, retain my staff and … well… basically have a life and not be a burden to anyone else. And in fact, be a giver not a taker. Nothing wrong with this at all, but it’s one way. I used to be part of this way myself. The other way is not to attempt to sell customers what they desire through ads which puts you at the mercy of your suppliers, but to create or find something new and different and convince enough of them it’s worth having to make a living that way. Neither way is right or wrong…I just found the latter to ultimately be easier. Your established…I probably would not change a thing. Not a debate…just some extra thoughts on your well written post.
If I serve the customers well the rest generally falls into place. And if my suppliers and other associates in the delivering of products and services also do their part well, customers will continue to be well seved over the long haul. There is a trick to this at times. Ha Ha
We all know the story of Bert and Firewires start. Firewire is clearly a sought after brand. This wasn’t particularily hard to see or anticipate, as the players involved were significant and the marketing was substantial and effective. Plus new things have a certain magic all on their own. True…we will see in five or six more years. This industry chews things up and spits them out quickly.
Fact is we get gobs of boxes of stuff delivered every day to us and… rarely do those boxes have anything other than “made in China” marked on them. It is quite amazing really to have watch this change happen so fast. Yes…the earth is now flat. No doubt. It is reality, but in the long run…I don’t think it’s good for our country. Reality is what it is though…not what we wish it to be. There is nothing wrong with taking advantage of opprotunities that are legal and allow you to stay in business or have a better life. We can certainly only discuss these things pros and cons in the abstract.
Frankly, I have always been amazed at how bad our Hawaiian surf industry has managed itself. It is tragic really, that many people come to Hawaii seeking to buy brands of surfboards and clothes made elsewhere. In an era now gone, the world looked toward Hawaii as the pinnacle of surfboard design and construction. No one would ever buy a California board here on their Hawaiian vacation and take it home with pride. And no shops here would stock anything but local boards popularized by local riders and board builders. AHHHH how times have changed! No doubt about this one.
Where, geographically speaking, products are made matters very little to me. I would prefer everything I sell to be made as local as possible. But that train left the station long ago and doesn’t look like it is coming back anytime soon. In the meantime, customers still want their needs met and their perception of the appropriate quality & price ratio is now set by world wide forces and I cannot stray too far from those accepted norms or my customers will not feel or be well served by my business. Actually I think our industry if it had the desire could change this quite easily since the industry itself is built mostly on hype and the cool factor. Were enough of the big guys to call crap on something or promote something else it wouldn’t take long for the movement to start. Why would they want to though with profits as high because of the availability of cheap labor that you can’t find in your own country because of labor ethics and laws. Back to that abstract thing again though.
I, of course, still build my boards by hand, locally and where I can I try to help or support others in their endeavors. But it isn’t a religion. It is my craft. And I try not to connect too much drama or quasi morality to it, so that I can stay well focused on filling my customers needs. Good post Bill…I enjoyed reading it. Like Kendell said…well thought out. Catch one for me…I have been shore bound sick for almost a month.
so… Bill, after seeing them and riding them do you feel you could build a better mouse trap? and if so what are your ideas? and i guess the same question to Greg L with all due respect to both of you and your skills as master craftsman,if anything makes for great reading.Have either of you tried a surf tech tl2 ? Or are all these new boards just the same answer to and old question different but not necessarily better.the boards of the future will look nothing like we currently ride than again? aloha…
Hi Bill – Thanks for articulating your points so well and in such depth, as I know it takes a lot of time. The way you make your points is also not arguable because you put it in such a personal context. You’re very generous, and thanks a lot.
Aloha,
ep
so.... Bill, after seeing them and riding them do you feel you could build a better mouse trap?Aloha privateer
Ahhh, the age old question! How can I address this. Maybe 2 parts.
- Is there a new design feature or construction change that will be so significant that it will, across the board, improve all boards for all surfers by just adding the feature, materials or construction technique to existing boards?
OR…
- Are all magic boards just the right combination of random components melded together for just the right guy at just the right stage of his progress.
and if so what are your ideas?
Hmmmm… That may not be possible to share without compromising future patents and IP protection rights. But yes, there are still things available that could significantly improve surfboard constuction and performance.
and i guess the same question to Greg L with all due respect to both of you and your skills as master craftsman,if anything makes for great reading.Have either of you tried a surf tech tl2 ?
I haven’t yet
Or are all these new boards just the same answer to and old question different but not necessarily better.
Depending on how you define better. Definately a bit different, not necessarily new, an ongoing evolution, a different mix of known tech. Potentially better. It all depends on how they fit #1 or #2 above.
the boards of the future will look nothing like we currently ride than again? aloha…
Quite possibly very different… It all depends on the willingness of surfers of stature to try new stuff. And maybe even stuff that is way out of the box. And not just try it and brush it off but give it a serious go. Totally new tech would be really cool. Not as hard to create as it would be to introduce. And super hard to gain acceptance.
Sadly, because of this… what is possible is rarely explored, let alone created, perfected and introduced.
Hey Bert,
Bummer to hear you got shafted.
Did they have a taxi waiting for you too?
SNIP
Nothing wrong with this at all, but it’s one way. I used to be part of this way myself. The other way is not to attempt to sell customers what they desire through ads which puts you at the mercy of your suppliers, but to create or find something new and different and convince enough of them it’s worth having to make a living that way.
Neither way is right or wrong…I just found the latter to ultimately be easier. Your established…I probably would not change a thing. Not a debate…just some extra thoughts on your well written post.
I don’t understand your example Solo. Don’t you sell stuff that other people make and promote? How is what you do so different now then before? Or different than any other retailing channel?
SNIP
[=Red]True…we will see in five or six more years. This industry chews things up and spits them out quickly.
Come on Solo, anything is possible over extended time but why be so smug and negative. What’s it matter to you anyway? What do you gain from a Firewire failure such that you are so hopeful of their demise? Success is a rare thing that should, in even in its smallest form, be treasured, honored and encouraged at every opportunity.
There is a ladder and we are all on some rung of it. Some are on rungs above us and some are on rungs below us. If those above us are successful and then are able to move up the ladder further, they allow and encourage our own movement up the ladder as they open up space, opportunity and hope for us. If they fail and are stuck where they are, they prevent us from moving up the ladder… and even worse, all those less fortunate on the rungs below us.
Because of this principle of life, it is imperative that we all do what we can to encourage the success of others on the ladder, as in that, lies our only hope of equal or better success when our time rolls around.
Some might say that certain people or businesses don’t have a right to succeed and move up the ladder, because they aren’t going about it in ways that these people approve of.
It is important to realize that in all our endeavors we won’t be perfect and because of that, there will always be some who vote for our success and many who will wish for our demise. Just like the way we might pass similar judgment on other peoples endeavors.
Consequently, if we allow our desires and predictions of failures for others, to be granted and validated, then we have to allow the same desires, wishes and predictions of our failure, to be granted to our detractors as well.
Life is hard enough when your just kicking back and getting by. But it will dish out heaps and heaps of negative crap upon anyone who truly tries to succeed and break out of the mediocre norm. Why make it any worse for those who try?
Rarely can I directly improve the status of anyone on any particular rung of the ladder. But if I can move the whole ladder higher we all win. So making sure success is revered, welcomed and sought after by everyone on the ladder is the best way to also guarantee my own success. And of course, all those dear to me who are also on the ladder.
Fact is we get gobs of boxes of stuff delivered every day to us and… rarely do those boxes have anything other than “made in China” marked on them. It is quite amazing really to have watch this change happen so fast. Yes…the earth is now flat. No doubt. It is reality, but in the long run…I don’t think it’s good for our country. Reality is what it is though…not what we wish it to be. There is nothing wrong with taking advantage of opprotunities that are legal and allow you to stay in business or have a better life. We can certainly only discuss these things pros and cons in the abstract.
I gotta hassle you a bit Solo. It isn’t personal and I mean no offense, but your position that you often express and have again here, needs to be challenged.
There is nothing abstract about this at all. It is only abstract to you because while you know it is reality, you don’t want to accept the reality. But it is happening all around us, and always has. Remember Japan… they were the cheap place to get goods at one time. I am sure there were plenty of abuses and perceived abuses during those years as Japan came on line as an equal partner in successful living, instead of the whacked out imperialistic nation hell bent on taking over the world. (apologies to any Japanese Swaylockers)
Seems to me that things have worked out pretty good in the long run for us and them. When the little guy has a few bucks in his pocket the world around them changes and adapts for the better. The process is not prefect nor is it, clean, safe, predictable or fast enough. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t the right process. Hopefully a similar kind of political and cultural change will take place in China as well. Maybe even faster and sooner then it did in Japan.
SNIP
Actually I think our industry if it had the desire could change this quite easily since the industry itself is built mostly on hype and the cool factor. Were enough of the big guys to call crap on something or promote something else it wouldn’t take long for the movement to start.
Change what? What is the big problem that needs fixing? Solo, you want the industry to change because you feel the course it is on is incorrect or wrong. This consumes you and many others. Give it a rest, it is a waste of time. The train left the station so long ago. Just like it did 40+ years ago with cheap prices from Japan. It is not a disaster and the sky is not falling.
The surf industry isn’t failing to take the right actions. And concocting solutions to fix these imaginary incorrect industry decisions is an exercise in futility. There is no turning back, there never really was and there is nothing to be fixed. Cause nothing is going all wrong. Change happens. Everyone just has to learn to deal with it!
Why would they want to though with profits as high because of the availability of cheap labor that you can’t find in your own country because of labor ethics and laws. Back to that abstract thing again though.
Ooooh, the “evil profit” card is played once again, as the tragic motive behind all perceived despicable and immoral actions. Since when did it become immoral or wrong to pursue efficiency in business, such that you deliver equal or better quality at lower prices for your customers and low and behold, possibly put some money in the bank for your efforts.
You sell retail on Internet. Surely you are aware of the Brick and Mortar retailers that despise your form of retailing. They have all the same arguments. The loss of sales taxes. The loss of brick and mortar tenants leading to the destruction of downtown main streets. The loss of sales floor jobs and lowering of wages. The loss of face to face, personal customer service. The list like yours for offshore mfg. is endless.
Don’t get me wrong. These aren’t my personal arguments against you or Internet retailing. I am just using it to make a point. That change happens. Adapt, improvise and overcome! Time is a wasting. Stop the whining and get busy.
And lastly Solo, give me a break about this overseas labor laws stuff. We all know that very few surfboard makers are making boards in truly legal facilities. Are recycling their acetone. Recording their true incomes and paying proper taxes. Plenty operate under the table or pay their workers (illegally) as subcontractors exactly to escape all the same employee benefits and laws and costs that you find so foul when your “big guys” do their mfg. overseas. Who are you kidding Solo, the whole surfboard industry prides itself in beating the system and skirting around all the socially accepted laws. And it has a tradition of doing so. Yet your “big guys” that go over seas don’t do so illegally and probably run cleaner businesses then 90% of the supposedly soulful small guys.
Now don’t anyone get me wrong here. My comments above are only there to make the point about the moralities of going offshore. I have no beef with backyard board makers and could care less what anyone else is doing in their business
SNIP
Good post Bill…I enjoyed reading it. Like Kendell said…well thought out. Catch one for me…I have been shore bound sick for almost a month.
Get well
SNIP
Nothing wrong with this at all, but it’s one way. I used to be part of this way myself. The other way is not to attempt to sell customers what they desire through ads which puts you at the mercy of your suppliers, but to create or find something new and different and convince enough of them it’s worth having to make a living that way.
Neither way is right or wrong…I just found the latter to ultimately be easier. Your established…I probably would not change a thing. Not a debate…just some extra thoughts on your well written post.
I don’t understand your example Solo. Don’t you sell stuff that other people make and promote? How is what you do so different now then before? Or different than any other retailing channel?
If your in business selling products, then there is no way around selling somethings made in china or manufactured by someone else. I personally try and sell and carry only the best. Not the most hyped. To answer you question I mostly sell things I own and promote myself. Things I personally believe in, not the status quo nor whats popular the moment. I moved online so I don't have to sell the coolest pair of Volcon boardshorts or have the latest Company come out and not sell me because the big shop up the street also carries it and has made a deal. I don't building someone else's future. Why not simply put the same effort into something you control more instead of being at the mercy of hype?SNIP
True…we will see in five or six more years. This industry chews things up and spits them out quickly.
Come on Solo, anything is possible over extended time but why be so smug and negative. You think it’s smug and negative. I simply see it as looking at the industry realistically. Remember OP and tie front walk shorts above the knee? How about Kelly Slaver 17’’ wide boards that only some really young light kid could ride? Remember those popouts like Surftech back in the eighties? Chewed up, hyped, spit out. Thats just the way of this industry and many other industries. Might as well be realistic about it. If thats negative… What’s it matter to you anyway? What do you gain from a Firewire failure such that you are so hopeful of their demise? Success is a rare thing that should, in even in its smallest form, be treasured, honored and encouraged at every opportunity.
Where do you get out of my post that I am hopeful of their demise. I enjoy writing about things. Let me state for the record that I am not hopeful for the demise of Surftech or Firewire. However, when or if they go out of business I will not lose much sleep over it as you may. To me, they are simply the thing of the moment, just like there will be a next thing of the moment. Out of some of it comes lasting products that change the industry for years to come. I think Surftech has done that to some degree with regards to percetion of mass produced surfboards. As for sucess…I guess it depends on your definition of sucess when you say it needs to be treasured. I see a single mom raising four kids decently a sucess or some business owner that simply pays his bills to be every much a sucess as some over hyped industry guy that makes a million bucks because he is able to market well. My point on Firewire is this…is it a sucess yet? I don’t think we can make that determination for a few years Bill and no, I don’t have to treasure them because they make a lot of money and claims that your averge surfer can’t tell the difference about anyway. Most of us don’t surf in Hawaii or live in a real surf driven culture.
There is a ladder and we are all on some rung of it. Some are on rungs above us and some are on rungs below us. If those above us are successful and then are able to move up the ladder further, they allow and encourage our own movement up the ladder as they open up space, opportunity and hope for us. If they fail and are stuck where they are, they prevent us from moving up the ladder… and even worse, all those less fortunate on the rungs below us.
Because of this principle of life, it is imperative that we all do what we can to encourage the success of others on the ladder, as in that, lies our only hope of equal or better success when our time rolls around. Well I don’t 100% accept your premise, but I agree with some of it. Your telling me that if Firewire stays stuck in place on some mythical ladder that it’s going to keep me from eventually becoming sucessful. Come on Bill, we make our own sucess. Big money can for a time buy a certain amount of percieved sucess, you can’t tell for about a decade if they will stick around. I absolutely do encourage others to sucess. However, my advice is don’t believe hype, live in reality, don’t lie, try and make things right when you screw up and forgive yourself and others for mistakes made. What I don’t like about big business is thats it that chews up and spits out anything in it’s path towards the bottom line with little care of who it hurts.
Some might say that certain people or businesses don’t have a right to succeed and move up the ladder, because they aren’t going about it in ways that these people approve of.
I certainly think they have the right, but I also as do we all have the right to observe and decide if the methods fit within our personal guidlines for life. I would never want government to step in to force things by my own personal view of life or morality, but I have the right to have that personal view, express it and try and influence others to think about it. I enjoy writing, because when people read ideas written, they can begin to see things from different perspetives...even if they don't agree with all or any of what is written. Our industry has a herd mentality Bill, I usually write about that from the Devil's advocate point of view.It is important to realize that in all our endeavors we won’t be perfect and because of that, there will always be some who vote for our success and many who will wish for our demise. Just like the way we might pass similar judgment on other peoples endeavors. A tad bit of preaching don’t you think? I don’t think any judgments have been passed on this thread, I think some people think they smelled B.S. and expressed it. Isn’t that what forums are for? An exchange of ideas.
Consequently, if we allow our desires and predictions of failures for others, to be granted and validated, then we have to allow the same desires, wishes and predictions of our failure, to be granted to our detractors as well. No one is predicting failure. Some of us are simply saying, I don’t believe your hype, come back and talk to us in a few years after the newness has worn off. As for the rest of the preaching…most of us know life isn’t fair and we will all face hardship. I don’t know anyone here that wishes hardships on others.
Life is hard enough when your just kicking back and getting by. But it will dish out heaps and heaps of negative crap upon anyone who truly tries to succeed and break out of the mediocre norm. Why make it any worse for those who try? I agree with breaking from the herd and from what you call the mediocre norm. I just don’t personally buy every sinlge bit of hype that comes out of the industry market place. I sold Surftechs, I personally owned three surftechs and I watched them carefully for a few years before I came to any conclusions about them. Just because something is popular does not mean it’s the best or as adverstised thing in the market. I still kind of like the tech of that stuff, but I simply at this point don’t like the way they ride nor the way they do business, which is much the same as all the rest of the clothing companies. I have nothing personal against R.F. at all nor do I wish him or Surftech ill will. I am using that as an example of your above comments, not trying to hijack the thread back onto the Surftech discussion.
Rarely can I directly improve the status of anyone on any particular rung of the ladder. But if I can move the whole ladder higher we all win. So making sure success is revered, welcomed and sought after by everyone on the ladder is the best way to also guarantee my own success. And of course, all those dear to me who are also on the ladder. Again…I don’t buy this fiction of a ladder. We are not all in this together Bill. We are alone and will make it or break it on our “own” sucess or failure. I don’t dislike my competitors, but I can assure you they are not dear to me. Thats not reality. Like one shaper once told me, "Whoever invented the term…“Being copied is the best form of flattery, must have been the one doing the copying” I am not concerned about everyone’s place in the way of life. I enjoy writing about things. Ideas which I believe in or want to express. It has nothing what so ever to do with wishing ill of someone. However, I think it’s fine to call B.S. on B.S.
Fact is we get gobs of boxes of stuff delivered every day to us and… rarely do those boxes have anything other than “made in China” marked on them. It is quite amazing really to have watch this change happen so fast. Yes…the earth is now flat. No doubt. It is reality, but in the long run…I don’t think it’s good for our country. Reality is what it is though…not what we wish it to be. There is nothing wrong with taking advantage of opprotunities that are legal and allow you to stay in business or have a better life. We can certainly only discuss these things pros and cons in the abstract.
I gotta hassle you a bit Solo. It isn’t personal and I mean no offense, but your position that you often express and have again here, needs to be challenged.
There is nothing abstract about this at all. ab·stract adj [áb strakt, ab strákt]
not concrete: not relating to concrete objects but expressing something that can only be appreciated intellectually
theoretical: based on general principles or theories rather than on specific instances
abstract arguments
- arts nonrepresentational: not aiming to depict an object but composed with the focus on internal structure and form Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
Yes…actually…I think there is. Look at the above definitions. It is only abstract to you because while you know it is reality, you don’t want to accept the reality. Accepting reality and liking reality are two different things. Reality can be changed by writing, and other forms of protest. Offshoring for cheap labor is pretty much the same thing that slavery and child labor was in this country exept it’s illegal here so we go where it’s legal. That is also reality Bill. But it is happening all around us, and always has. Remember Japan… they were the cheap place to get goods at one time. I am sure there were plenty of abuses and perceived abuses during those years as Japan came on line as an equal partner in successful living, instead of the whacked out imperialistic nation hell bent on taking over the world. (apologies to any Japanese Swaylockers)
So a little child labor abuse, slavery, sweatshop labor is ok as long as they eventually come into line with the rest of
so called civilized nations? What happens when all the nations finally come online and there is no more cheap labor?
History is a pretty good teacher.
Seems to me that things have worked out pretty good in the long run for us and them. When the little guy has a few bucks in his pocket the world around them changes and adapts for the better. The process is not prefect nor is it, clean, safe, predictable or fast enough. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t the right process. Hopefully a similar kind of political and cultural change will take place in China as well. Maybe even faster and sooner then it did in Japan. So you believe that our own child labor, women lacking rights, slavery and etc. was still the right process to get us to where we are today. Is sucess only measured by the end result? I know a few million Native Americans that may debate you on that and some kids chained to a sewing machine on some south pacific island. It is reality, and some of our best times as humans have been when we tried to change reality for the better. I am all for semi regulated lazie fare capitalism…but…I think we should strive to better things, not simply take whats available and turn a blind eye to how we are getting our sucess. You are challenging me in general…so…I am responding in a general sense.
SNIP
Actually I think our industry if it had the desire could change this quite easily since the industry itself is built mostly on hype and the cool factor. Were enough of the big guys to call crap on something or promote something else it wouldn’t take long for the movement to start.
Change what? What is the big problem that needs fixing? Solo, you want the industry to change because you feel the course it is on is incorrect or wrong. This consumes you and many others. Give it a rest, it is a waste of time. The train left the station so long ago. Just like it did 40+ years ago with cheap prices from Japan. It is not a disaster and the sky is not falling.
Who said I wanted to change it. I was responding to you saying that it was the way it was and thats that. I
simply said it “could” be changed and how. I really could care less if the stupid surf industry changes because
there really is no surf industry Bill. I will continue to write about things I have ideas about and see the herd mentality for what it is. If I at some point think I can make a buck from it without hurting anyone, sometimes the markets dictates to you what you have to do to stay in business. Your right about this....it will become the norm and some will either join or get left behind.<span style="color:Blue">The surf industry isn’t failing to take the right actions. And concocting solutions to fix these imaginary incorrect industry decisions is an exercise in futility. There is no turning back, there never really was and there is nothing to be fixed. Cause nothing is going all wrong. Change happens. Everyone just has to learn to deal with it! Hey…your speaking my language now. Don’t join stupid Surf institutions, don’t give them your hard earned money, Don’t believe organizations such as Surfrider or Christians Surfers that claim to have some higher purpose. Simply live your life, do what it takes to get by, and the bottom line is always the bottom line.
Why would they want to though with profits as high because of the availability of cheap labor that you can’t find in your own country because of labor ethics and laws. Back to that abstract thing again though.
Ooooh, the “evil profit” card is played once again, as the tragic motive behind all perceived despicable and immoral actions. Since when did it become immoral or wrong to pursue efficiency in business, such that you deliver equal or better quality at lower prices for your customers and low and behold, possibly put some money in the bank for your efforts. I don’t think you can find where I have ever said profit was evil. I think being willing to do anything or accept anything for a profit is evil, but thats simply a personal view. I love to see business effieciency when done honestly. So…no profit is not evil…but “some” actions to obtain profits certainly can be.
You sell retail on Internet. Surely you are aware of the Brick and Mortar retailers that despise your form of retailing. They have all the same arguments. The loss of sales taxes. The loss of brick and mortar tenants leading to the destruction of downtown main streets. The loss of sales floor jobs and lowering of wages. The loss of face to face, personal customer service. The list like yours for offshore mfg. is endless. Boo Hoo…I don’t have any kids chained in my gargage working for a dime a day and living in a tennant housing I own. Also…brick and mortor retailers cut deals with surf companies to keep folks from selling online. Ask Randy French. He will not sell to anyone without a store. I have had both, my customers get the same service either way. There are some here…ask them.
Don’t get me wrong. These aren’t my personal arguments against you or Internet retailing. I am just using it to make a point. That change happens. Adapt, improvise and overcome! Time is a wasting. Stop the whining and get busy. You have as much right to your view as I do. I appreciate that. However…I am not whinning. I am writing. You can read it or not. It only effects you as much as you allow.
And lastly Solo, give me a break about this overseas labor laws stuff. We all know that very few surfboard makers are making boards in truly legal facilities. Are recycling their acetone. Recording their true incomes and paying proper taxes. Plenty operate under the table or pay their workers (illegally) as subcontractors exactly to escape all the same employee benefits and laws and costs that you find so foul when your “big guys” do their mfg. overseas. I am not talking about beating the system Bill. I am speaking of dealing with countries that sell human labor because they either enslave (such as in China) or have conditions of such desperation people with do anything to get food to survive such as many of the South pacific islands and places like Thailand. Yes…I do think taking advantage of these people’s plight if foul when we pick and choose our political battles. Remember when surfers were all up in arms about dealing with South Africa? Whats the difference in dealing with South Africa and dealing with communist red china the killer of over 30 million of it’s own people and government with as bad a human rights record as you will find? Thats the just of my writing on that subject…no whinning about profits. Who are you kidding Solo, the whole surfboard industry prides itself in beating the system and skirting around all the socially accepted laws. And it has a tradition of doing so. Yet your “big guys” that go over seas don’t do so illegally and probably run cleaner businesses then 90% of the supposedly soulful small guys. Bill, your making the mistake of assuming I am buying into some surfing or boardbuilding is soulful crap. I love surfing, there is nothing bad about surfing…but I don’t apply terms like soulful (again created by magzine hype) to it very often. I do enjoy trying to discribe the feeling of it and if soulful fits for some…great. I agree with you, many of the small guys are not short on ego either and do things like call the city inspector on each other or make pacts with large shops at the expense of their competitor boardbuilders. I have never said anything different. So…I am not trying to fool anyone because it has little to do with what I write about often.
Now don’t anyone get me wrong here. My comments above are only there to make the point about the moralities of going offshore. I have no beef with backyard board makers and could care less what anyone else is doing in their business I think I made my points…I also enjoyed reading yours as well.
SNIP
Good post Bill…I enjoyed reading it. Like Kendell said…well thought out. Catch one for me…I have been shore bound sick for almost a month.
Get well
Take care Bill…catch one for me over there.
I haven’t ridden a TL2 but I’ve made some boards using the same ingredients.
One of the best points made here was by Bill, “top surfers willingness to try new things.” This is what it’s about today. We are in a new world where brand rules. To buck the modern system of branding is to beat your head against a wall. It didn’t start in surfing but it sure is reality today. Why does Bill carry FW. He sure wouldn’t have in 1975 but todays reality is that marketing creates demand.
It used to be much simpler where you made a nice product and people would buy it on those merits alone. Unfortunately making good surfboards isn’t really enough, partly because so many can and do. So label recognision comes into play.
So much of the advancment of the sport comes down to what the pro is willing to try. The last great leap in surfboards was the concave three which was popularized by KS. That was 1992 and since that time not a single revolutionary product has come online until FW, thanks to Bert.
Ever sit and watch the credits at the end of a movie. Sometime sit through a truely epic movie like Gone with the Wind and watch the credits at the end. A few dozen people were employed in making that movie. Compare that with a movie today where sitting through the credits takes almost as long as the movie. Thousands are employed. The days of one man changing the sport are probably done. Certainly Bert has a revolutionary tech, but it would have never been what it’s become without those other players. This is the reality of today’s world.
So can we make better, revolutionary equipment? You bet. I see stuff all the time that has potential. Will any of it see the light of day? In today’s world this will only happen with the assistance of a marketing team, a pro surf team and a lot of luck. And none of that comes cheap.
Thanks Bill. great posts
hey mal , how you been ??
you looking for a job ??
got a new machine on order already …
your gonna freak when you see some of the new stuff in the works …
youll be saying, “why didnt we think of that before”?
i wasnt around for your exit , but i can only try to picture the scenario…
pretty much from the office to the front door … you for real about the taxi??
RSL- Scotty , T.B and K.S over in west oz or are you somehwere else ??
interesting feedback there , hope the right people get that info before everyone else does …
wonder if teebs will get fired to ?
i would like to think i would be missed , but theres plenty of other capable crew , GL and Nev are pretty much the design and contruction gurus now , guess all those years of building high performance sandwich composite boards are about to get put to the test …
so we will see where it goes under there direction …
i got plenty to keep me busy , also been hearing some good reports about your stuff scotty … light , white , and turns tight , heard you been doing some crazy stuff to …
nice to hear …glad you been looking after some of my old customers to…
G.L. drops in for a guest appearance …
we got newbs close to the action …
and P.R. guys disguised as joe blows …
then Bill and Solo brightening things up …
reckon there is more than few corporate lurkers tuning in everyday …
big brother must be waiting for this one to die …
theres the winners , the grinners , a bunch of sinners and a whole lot of people on the edge of there seats …
i cant believe the cameras are still rolling …
i think i will take some good advice and hit the road for a few days and go surfing till the whole thing cools down …
regards
BERT
I haven’t ridden a TL2 but I’ve made some boards using the same ingredients.
One of the best points made here was by Bill, “top surfers willingness to try new things.” This is what it’s about today. We are in a new world where brand rules. To buck the modern system of branding is to beat your head against a wall. It didn’t start in surfing but it sure is reality today. Why does Bill carry FW. He sure wouldn’t have in 1975 but todays reality is that marketing creates demand.
It used to be much simpler where you made a nice product and people would buy it on those merits alone. Unfortunately making good surfboards isn’t really enough, partly because so many can and do. So label recognision comes into play.
So much of the advancment of the sport comes down to what the pro is willing to try. The last great leap in surfboards was the concave three which was popularized by KS. That was 1992 and since that time not a single revolutionary product has come online until FW, thanks to Bert.
Ever sit and watch the credits at the end of a movie. Sometime sit through a truely epic movie like Gone with the Wind and watch the credits at the end. A few dozen people were employed in making that movie. Compare that with a movie today where sitting through the credits takes almost as long as the movie. Thousands are employed. The days of one man changing the sport are probably done. Certainly Bert has a revolutionary tech, but it would have never been what it’s become without those other players. This is the reality of today’s world.
So can we make better, revolutionary equipment? You bet. I see stuff all the time that has potential. Will any of it see the light of day? In today’s world this will only happen with the assistance of a marketing team, a pro surf team and a lot of luck. And none of that comes cheap.
Thanks Bill. great posts
Now see…this has been my favorite post so far. Hi Greg…I think that system can be bucked and probably will one day…but it sure aint going away any time soon.
who’s been played here?
and who are the players who’ve been manipulating us all here?
eyes opened may sicken you
those smarter than the average bear
figured some of it out many moons ago
the rest of us were just pawns used to further the cause
where and when did this all come from?
go back 3-4 years and read the archives
it’s been a carefully planned program
that lead to the crafting of a private new cash machine
this was it’s birthpace
and serves as it’s current nanny
some tried to call it on it true merits a couple years ago
but the zombies ate them to death
I too became a zombie
I’m glad I’ve been cured…
this is like Castro or Mao leading a “Peoples Revolution”
but the end result proved to be something else
think about that one…
and spend some time on the archives… 2003 on
Hey Bert
Yeah… the waves were pretty sick down here the other day… Rabbit hill (yallingup/margaret river), It was an amazing show. I had a close look at one of KS’s boards… not the one with the crazy stringers … it had a lot of rocker. are most of his boards like this?
Had a better look at tb’s board… mainly looking at the construction as best i could …corecell deck, wood rail … had the wood? springer showing. One thing that does interest me if anyone knows is how do they do that white tint … and keep it off the rails… is it urethane spray job?.. pigment in resin? … or acrilic under gloss(seems like that would add a bit of weight?)… it does look kinda cool.
I’d like the general public know as much about boards and construction as they can, So they can make an informed decision… to surf better … and ultimatly enjoy themselves. Often i see situations where the pro surfer gets one set of equipment and the punter on the street gets a cheaper mass produced copy… (possibly with inferior/cheaper materials)… ie… Pro surfer gets corecell and uninformed punter gets urethane…I’ll admit it shits me when i see smart people getting rich doing this. Though its great to see some other equally gifted people sharing their knowledge
Its fantastic to see the surfboard evolve at the moment,…( bert well deserved shaper of the year… ) wouldn’t it be amazing if everone could benefit from this. If the public is informed perhaps this will happen.
Scott Laurenson
Aloha Solo
Great discussion. Wish I had more time to continue but I can’t much more, plus I hate to water down the primary point of the thread.
I have been through this whole “offshore” drama a few times already, so maybe I am kind of burned out on hearing how devastating it is or is eventually going to be. I apologize to those who like to preach this gospel but it is sooooo, so much old news.
I went through it with sailboards, we used to build hundreds in my factory. I went through it with bicycles as I watched production go from the USA, to Japan, then Taiwan and now China. There is nothing at all new in these current surfboard changes. Same ole, same ole.
You asked…“What happens when all the nations finally come online and there is no more cheap labor?” A dramatic question for sure, but meaningless really. Who cares is the answer! If we ever even get there it will be a long way off. And when it does happen we will hopefully strike balanced relationships like we have with Japan and Germany even though we were once in a fight to the death with them.
I understand your passion for your cause Solo and I don’t disparage the sincerity of your quest. But the changes you desire are happening and life is improving for people in China and elsewhere. I have friends with factories in China and their employees are way better off today then they were before. Would it be nice if it were even better and sooner. Of course. But life style improvements are driven by economic excess and it takes time to create the cultures that have the desire and ability to create excess. When people have more than they need, they become more willing to share and improve their world around them. As long as they earn their excess it works. If it is simply handed to them it doesn’t. Western civilization has been at this for a long time. It will take awhile for the common people in these other countries who have been subjugated for generations by their foul leaders to experience the power of excess.
Hype or marketing is what it is Solo. Don’t stress so much over it. Sometimes it boarders on the “snake oil salesmen” side and sometimes the hype is a fair description of the products performance. I understand your dislike for what strikes you as unreasonable Hype and your desire to save everyone from being taken in by it.
But let me fill you in on a little secret Solo. People love the Hype! That is why it works. People like being told what is good, what is cool, what is happening. They like knowing what is faster, bigger, stronger, lighter, cleaner, and superior. Don’t presume these people are stupid sheep being led to slaughter by snake oil salesmen. They are not. Hype is highly subjective and judging its impact or fairness is a very presumptuous quest for anyone to take on. For example, even your website Solo, uses plenty of strong, persuasive language and images to tout the superiority of the products you sell, just like Volcom or Firewire does. So I am not sure you are being fair in your ranting against the use of hype by others.
I respect your passion for your cause but I doubt you are saving anyone from this evil hype that you perceive to exist. This is really just about you fighting against what bugs you, not what is really bugging others. People are a lot smarter than you give them credit for Solo. They like it when something is widely accepted as being good, cool and happening. And they like owning that item and joining the club. That is what the whole world of fashion is all about! Or how about collectables, they are just what everyone agrees is valuable other wise it would just be called junk. Now that is effective Hype!! Let everyone have their fun Solo. I know it bothers the heck out of you to see them taken in as naive sheep, but they are having fun and aren’t really in need of a savior. They love this stuff so why make them feel uncomfortable about it.
You might say…how do I know they love it… Well, cause not only are all these people customers of mine but I am also a customer just like them myself! I also like owning the best (in my own mind) stuff. And I am really glad that companies make cool stuff and do great artistic marketing to convince me that the stuff is good. I rarely find it to be offensive hype even when over the top a bit. And I can usually find my way through it. In fact, this is the part that is often most fun. Dreaming about it, buying it, owning it and maybe even basking in the excess of it a bit. Often it doesn’t really matter how well the thing actually works! It is all good fun. Don’t take it so seriously Solo. Lighten up a bit. Its just stuff!
Aloha Solo
Great discussion. Wish I had more time to continue but I can’t much more, plus I hate to water down the primary point of the thread.
I have been through this whole “offshore” drama a few times already, so maybe I am kind of burned out on hearing how devastating it is or is eventually going to be. I apologize to those who like to preach this gospel but it is sooooo, so much old news.
I went through it with sailboards, we used to build hundreds in my factory. I went through it with bicycles as I watched production go from the USA, to Japan, then Taiwan and now China. There is nothing at all new in these current surfboard changes. Same ole, same ole.
I understand your passion for your cause Solo and I don’t disparage the sincerity of your quest. But the changes you desire are happening and life is improving for people in China and elsewhere. I have friends with factories in China and their employees are way better off today then they were before. Would it be nice if it were even better and sooner. Of course. But life style improvements are driven by economic excess and it takes time to create the cultures that have the desire and ability to create excess. When people have more than they need, they become more willing to share and improve their world around them. As long as they earn their excess it works. If it is simply handed to them it doesn’t. Western civilization has been at this for a long time. It will take awhile for the common people in these other countries who have been subjugated for generations by their foul leaders to experience the power of excess.
China is way older than the west Bill. Show me any time in their history where they have shared because they
have more than they need. Nope what happens with industrialism is the large corporations gobble up everything
in sight and start passing laws to lower minimum wages and allow for more workers of younger ages to enter the labor force. You probably need to look at how long we have had improved labor in our own country. You did read "The jungle" in high school I presume.<span style="color:Blue">Hype or marketing is what it is Solo. Don’t stress so much over it. Sometimes it boarders on the “snake oil salesmen” side and sometimes the hype is a fair description of the products performance. I understand your dislike for what strikes you as unreasonable Hype and your desire to save everyone from being taken in by it. I don’t stress on it at all. I like to write. If it influences someone, inspires someone, or simply makes them think then I have accomplished my task.
But let me fill you in on a little secret Solo. People love the Hype! That is why it works. People like being told what is good, what is cool, what is happening. I agree…most normal mature adults outgrow it by the time they leave their teens or early twenties. I too appreciate good advertisment (Yo Quiero Taco Bell, Gieco Cave man etc) I just don’t like B.S. I have no issue at all with people making claims about performance, just as those making the claims should have no issue being challenged. They like knowing what is faster, bigger, stronger, lighter, cleaner, and superior. Don’t presume these people are stupid sheep being led to slaughter by snake oil salesmen. Why not? I don’t know about being led to slaughter, but sheep, absolutely. A herd instict at it’s very best. Like Rotten said of his band the Sex Pistols. He said he showed up to concerts and folks had begun wearing his look and that by doing that, they missed the entire point of being individual. They can push the snake oil and I will continue to write about that. They enjoy it so do I. The world continues. We all have fun. They are not. Hype is highly subjective and judging its impact or fairness is a very presumptuous quest for anyone to take on. For example, even your website Solo, uses plenty of strong, persuasive language and images to tout the superiority of the products you sell, just like Volcom or Firewire does. So I am not sure you are being fair in your ranting against the use of hype by others. Thats possible, my site is a few years old. Here is a sample so folks can decide: I don’t find much hype in my site though I am sure some may make the claim. I promote what I think works and ask that folks keep an open mind. Ask anyone that has delt with me on a board purchase and they will tell you that I go over all the possibilities both negative and posite and to give it six months before they decide if they like it. As for the rest of it…bags, pads, leashes. I sell pretty much the same thing as always and only do that as a benefit to my customers.
I respect your passion for your cause but I doubt you are saving anyone from this evil hype that you perceive to exist. Not my intention to save anyone. Wow…that would be going a bit far. I think people should buy what they wish with their hard earned money, but why do you have review sites and the like? Cause people want information. Thats why I write about it. Like when Doc and I did a thread on opening a surf shop. If someone read that and took that advice to heart, I will bet you a dollar they saved money and heartache. I am all for people following their dreams. This is really just about you fighting against what bugs you, not what is really bugging others. Really? I see my share of it right here on Swaylocks and almost every other forum as well. I don’t know about being bugged. I think some folks simply see things more clearly than others or have an opinion. People are a lot smarter than you give them credit for Solo. They like it when something is widely accepted as being good, cool and happening. Rigth…you said this before. Like I said, most outgrow it by adulthood. I don’t mind something widely being accepted. Not at all. Not if they live up to the label. I will use Jim Philips as an example: His boards are widely accepted as quality functional and beautiful. I completely agree and you get the added bonus of having a really great guy build them. Cool and happening? Have not heard that one associated with anything but mass produces surfboard companies. And they like owning that item and joining the club. That is what the whole world of fashion is all about! Or how about collectables, they are just what everyone agrees is valuable other wise it would just be called junk. Now that is effective Hype!! Let everyone have their fun Solo. I know it bothers the heck out of you to see them taken in as naive sheep, but they are having fun and aren’t really in need of a savior. They love this stuff so why make them feel uncomfortable about it. I am all for folks having their fun. Again…I like to write. Maybe you should take everything I write so seriously. It obviously made you think about it long enough to respond with a couple of well thought out post. It does not bother me to see sheep. It only confirms my personal view of the industry. Good points on fashion. Do you wear the latest in fashion and keep up with the trends? I think that junk is whats wrong with surfing and one of the reasons you see attitude in the water and surfers portrayed as burn out drug addicts.
You might say…how do I know they love it… Well, cause not only are all these people customers of mine but I am also a customer just like them myself! I also like owning the best (in my own mind) stuff. And I am really glad that companies make cool stuff and do great artistic marketing to convince me that the stuff is good. I rarely find it to be offensive hype even when over the top a bit. And I can usually find my way through it. In fact, this is the part that is often most fun. Dreaming about it, buying it, owning it and maybe even basking in the excess of it a bit. Often it doesn’t really matter how well the thing actually works! It is all good fun. Don’t take it so seriously Solo. Lighten up a bit. Its just stuff! Good post Bill, though I think you read more into it than is there. Sorry I don’t dream about labels, I do dream about designs. The fact that you use the word “cool” probably shows the gulley between our thinking. As you say, your in that side of the industry…I would embrace it as well if they are your customers. You would have to. I used to be, but I am more focused on a few designs now. Hey…maybe I will cave in and have boards made in Thailand and figure out a way to get them close to cost of the $150.00 they pay for them. Then they can all say, I am hurting the industry by selling price. I do appreciate anything done well. Even hype. I think Surftech has done one heck of a job at marketing and also with their web site. Better than almost any other company I have seen in awhile. Firewire…we will wait and see in about five or six more years. Have a great day Bill…don’t take this stuff too awful serious…I am just writing.
"China is way older than the west Bill. Show me any time in their history where they have shared because they
have more than they need. Nope what happens with industrialism is the large corporations gobble up everything
in sight and start passing laws to lower minimum wages and allow for more workers of younger ages to enter the
labor force. You probably need to look at how long we have had improved labor in our own country. You did read
“The jungle” in high school I presume. "
You did have a history course in high school I presume? China sacrificed blood, sweat and tears in a little war they called “The Pacific War”. Thier excess of good will and concern for not only themselves but the world as we know it, served the United States well in defeating Japanese imperialism. A wonderful partner to the U.S. and the whole world in bringing peace to the Pacific Rim. Unfortunately communism ruined everything on mainland China. The newly regained territories off mainland China that have thrived under capitalism and are more wonderful examples of what excess has brought to that table of new tech, medicine and prosperity. The list could be long on what the Chinese people have shared due to “excess”. The obvious conclusion is that the free Chinese people are more likely to “share” due to excess than the commie dictators would allow. (apologies to any commies out there).
BTW, Randy French has NOT parted ways with surftech and it’s alive and well world wide.
Current score.
BB-3 Ssurf-0
"
You did have a history course in high school I presume? China sacrificed blood, sweat and tears in a little war they called “The Pacific War”. Thier excess of good will and concern for not only themselves but the world as we know it, served the United States well in defeating Japanese imperialism. Yes…I have also studied the histories between China and Japan. Certainly no one sided thing. They helped because they were invaded. Not to give back to the world because they had abundance. Also…the Nationalist Chinese killed about 11 million of their own people, like the Commuinist killed about 30 million. In modern times…I can’t think of a major contriubution by China’ governments other than cheap labor to further it’s own ends. Cheap labor that comes as a result of a totalitarian government. I agree with Bill that as capitalism takes hold it will allow for more upward mobility of certain Chinese. It will also add the need for more control…which at times means economic wars or shooting wars. A wonderful partner to the U.S. and the whole world in bringing peace to the Pacific Rim. Ha Ha…good one though. Unfortunately communism ruined everything on mainland China. As I pointed out…the nationalist were only slightly better if better at all. The newly regained territories off mainland China that have thrived under capitalism and are more wonderful examples of what excess has brought to that table of new tech, medicine and prosperity. The list could be long on what the Chinese people have shared due to “excess”. The obvious conclusion is that the free Chinese people are more likely to “share” due to excess than the commie dictators would allow. (apologies to any commies out there). I don’t think I have disagreed with your last sentence on any post. However, giant corporations want more control of profits and less competition. Rarely is their priority giving back. Individuals like Gates certain take it upon themselves from time to time, but corporations exist to wipe out competition and control market share. Thats why Capitalism has to be semi regulated or it too becomes totalitarian. Heck, they already control our government in many ways.
BTW, Randy French has NOT parted ways with surftech and it’s alive and well world wide.
I have not even heard this. Where did this rumor come from?
Current score.
BB-3 Ssurf-0 O. 0 S.S. 3
BTW, Randy French has NOT parted ways with surftech and it’s alive and well world wide.
I have not even heard this. Where did this rumor come from?
i percieved it as a comment made in jest ,alluding to the fact that Surftech still has its primary developer leading the charge and that the company is in a solid posistion …
this leads me to conclude that OTAY , is a surftech rep or very closely alligned ?
am i right there ?
regards
BERT