First board: 6' x 21" Quad fish Glassing HELP!

Hi Swaylocks, been lurking for a while admiring some of the amazing boards that get posted up here and finally decided to make my own. I guess this will eventually be a build thread but I’m a long way off yet!

So I’ve drawn a template for the board at 1:10 scale on graph paper and taken measurements at every 8 inches for drawing out the full size template. (I’ll probably take more frequent measurements when it comes down to it for accuracies sake.) I’d love to scan it on but currently don’t have access to a scanner and my Uni’s library won’t be open until Monday so I’ll get the scans posted up then.

My measurements are: (from nose to tail)
1: 12in
2. 18in
3. 21in
4. 21in (so the wide point of the board comes about 4in after the halfway mark and stays wide until 24in from the nose where it starts to narrow)
5. 20in
6. 18in
7. 16in
8. 14in
9. 12in (distance between the fishtail tips) Fishtail is 7.5in deep
Hope this is enough for you guys to visualise the shape and tell me if it’s going drastically wrong anywhere or if it looks ok, but as I say I’ll get the scan posted up ASAP.

One thing I’ve noticed is a lot of people seem to post dims like 6’2" x 19" x 21 1/2" x 16" (just off the top of my head, probably ridiculous) I guess the measurements are length, nose width, widest point and tail width right? If so at what point along the board do you take the nose and tail width? Is there some kind of accepted standard?

Anyway, I’ve not drawn a rocker template but I plan on it being fairly low rocker all the way through so I figure I can judge it when I have the blank itself. Is this ok?
My plan for the rails roughly is; hard/sharp from tail to front of fins, tucked in at the middle 70/30, soft from the front 1/3 to nose 50/50. Does this sound alright? Pretty worried about doing the rails on the board, have no idea where to start with rail bands. I read surfersteve’s guide and he suggests just going for 50/50 all the way along for your first board. Would this be too loose on the quad? I figure the harder rails on the tail will give the board a bit more bite and hold?
As for thickness I’m planning on roughly 2 5/8" at the thickest point. Planning on keeping the bottom flat for simplicities sake unless there is any pressing reason why I should attempt a vee/concave?

I’m planning on making my own fins and glassing them on and have a couple questions about this. I have a cheap set of FCS quads I could trace for a template but I don’t know if this is the best thing to do. I’ve seen quads with 2 fins that look like keels and then 2 normal fins, I figure this will give the board a more retro skatey feel? If so I’d like to try that, but I have absolutely no clue about fin placement, angles, or where to start with the templates. This is the part I need some serious help with currently.

Finally, planning on attempting a glass leash loop but will cross that bridge when it comes. I’d like to tint the board red and have the fins natural wood. For a beginner are there any serious problems with a tint on the first board? Would it be better just to glass it clear?

Sorry for the essay, hopefully I’ll be able to get this board done in the next couple of months and I’ll have you guys to thank!

Adam

EDIT:
Browsing about fins and placement and the canard quad setup looks to be ideal. Got the templates from here and trying to pencil in some placement on my board template just now. Problems I’m facing: Is my template too pulled in at the tail? Could it use another inch or so? Also I think the “butt crack” is possibly too deep at 7.5" but not sure. What actual effect will this have on the board aside from aesthetics :S
Just drew another template with a 13in width from tail tip to tip and 14.5" 8 inches from the tail. Reduced the tail depth to 6". Looks a bit better.

I guess the real good guys can perhaps visualize your numbers, but a picture would be very useful :wink: You can also download “AKUshaper” if you want to play around with outline and rockerline.

 

Nose and tail width are taken 1’ away from nose and tail.

 

For Quad placement you can also use the McKee formula: http://greenlightsurfsupply.com/images/PDFS/Mckee_Quattro_Formula_Shortboards_Guns_2009_February_Update.pdf

 

 

Hi Just read all your dims very carefully twice. Your outline (template/plan) shape sounds reasonably good to me. As parick says we always work in 12" (1 foot) increments so if your nose width is 12" at 8" down from the tip & 18" at 16" from the tip I guess its going to be about 15" at the 12" mark which might be a little narrow & pointy for a fish. I'd try & get it out to about 16" or 16.5"  at the 12" from the tip mark. Yes the 'butt crack' (in my opinion) 6" or 6.5" max. I'd also take the tail tips out to 13" (only an inch I know but you'll see & feel a great difference when its in the water) As parick says again the greenlight dimensions for quad fin placement is excellent for your first board (you can always get more technical with fin placement as you become more experienced - like on your 2nd board) And lastly... my humble advice re: rocker is to buy a blank which is designed especially for fishes. USBlanks & most others do a wider, low rocker blank specifically for fishes in a variety of lengths. Not trying to promote USBlanks but I purchased their 610A last week to do a 6'8" x 22" x 3" fish which has; nose - 4.5" rocker & tail - 1.5" rocker which I think is about perfect (any lower & you'll be pearling regularly) 

Have fun mate!   

Meant to post pics of the fish I was refering to in my previous comment. They are posted elsewhere but to save you going looking for them here they are. Finished shaping last week. Lammed the bottom this morning. Deck lamming happens tomorrow.




Thanks very much for the replies. Been tweaking and tweaking all day, found a useful post about fin placement and have cautiously sketched them out accordingly. Just had a look at the Mckee formula and it seems very different though, not sure what to go with. I'm attaching a photo I've taken of the drawing, how do the fins look? (and the whole thing in general)

That board looks awesome apauly, if mine turns out as good as that I'll be ecstatic! I added a bit more volume in the nose to the sketch as suggested, looks better I think. I've been changing the width between the tail points all day, think I'm going to settle with the 12". Would it be more stable at 13" or..?
About the blank, I take it you got it from seabase? I've been looking on their site today but can't find any fish blanks :S

I traced the outlines of the fins I have for my other board. I think they are a FCS M5 and a GX. I think the best option would be to try and replicate these myself to keep it simple? I do want to make my own fins though. I'd love to say I made the whole board and there is something about the natural wood fins that looks great. (attached the fin outlines)

EDIT: feeling stupid now that I go on seabase and actually search 'fish blank' :L Do you think I should go for the 602A as it seems to be enough foam or should I get the 605A to be safe? Also, what stringer?


Adelmelgo, that fish is entirely attractive.

Would probably go good with a liquid taco and some hot sauce.

 

Hi again. Yeah I get all my stuff from Seabase. When you go on their site click on 'online shop' then 'blanks' & it gives you the option of a PDF download of all their USBlanks with large scale drawings with all dims (lengths, widths, rockers etc.) I use basswood stringers as plys are special orders & the basswoods are strong enough. The 602A will be long enough for your 6' if its got enough volume & width for you. The difference in cost between the 602A & the 605A is probably nothing so if you need the extra width or volume go for that one. Cut it down by 3" at the nose & 2" at the tail & you lowered your rocker fractionally, which helps as you wanted a low rocker. Template drawing looks good. Just need to smooth the lines in a bit more when you cut your full size templates. I cut templates from 3mm mdf with a handsaw or jigsaw about 1/8" from the line then take down carefully to the line with a small handplane then finish with sandpaper wrapped round a cork block.  Also the fins are looking great. I'm in process of some FCS G5 quad fins at the moment from Finnish Birch. I'll post some pics for you this afternoon. Thinking about it 12" between tail points is ok as the board is only 6' long. I just have a personal preference for wider tails especially on longer boards.

Have fun mate!

the board dims look good and the fin placement looks good, stick with the split keel set up, mckee may be better for big or bigger wave boards imho. Now “Quit yo Jibber-jabber!” and do it! haha

Thanks again for the replies, have made a list of tools and materials needed to buy. One of my friends is picking me up some scrap wood for making the shaping/glassing stand. :D All set to go, will be shaping from home so it will be a weekend thing but should be getting started in the next couple of weeks. Cheers for the MDF tip, was going to go with card but MDF will be more robust and frankly, easier to find than the size of card that I need!

Last question before I make a start on the board I think: with regards to cloth weight. I was going to do 4oz on the bottom, 6oz on the top, with a 4oz deck pad. Is this enough and will it durable enough? And I take it the deck pad goes under the cloth that goes over the whole board?

Hi again. I do all 4oz on fish boards. 1 layer on the bottom & 2 full layers on the deck rather than a deck pad. Makes them a bit stronger & less likely to get the shit kicked out of the deck when duck diving but keeps the weight down.  Laminate the bottom first then when dry flip it over lay out the 2 deck layers dry one on top of the other then lam the 2 layers at the same time. But thats just my technique.

Been reading about and I want my first board to last forever so was thinking of going a bit heavier than that for this. Having no experience with this though I don't really know how it will affect the boards performance. If I glass 6oz on bottom and 6oz and 4oz on top, will there be a noticeable detrimental effect to performance?

Also, for finishing the board. Every guide I read seems to say you need some kind of high speed power tool for polishing. I'm doing this all with hand tools so is there any technique I can use to polish the board that doesn't require power tools? Or can I do the normal technique with hand tools for a longer time? Seems that the suggestion is that there is something about the speed of the tool that helps for polishing in which case I couldn't replicate it with hand tools.

[IMG]http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/1746/blankjs.jpg[/IMG]
Roughed out a little sketch, not anywhere near accurate but gives me a rough idea. Think I'm going with the 6'5" blank to give me a bit more space to work with. Also worried about the crust on the foam and strength. Will be phoning up seabase to ask them what they think on this one.

[IMG]http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/7042/rails.jpg[/IMG]
Found this on greenlight surf supply, which is a ridiculously helpful resource. Did a rough measure of the template on this page and it's roughly 5'11" x 21" x 2.75" Pretty similar outline to mine, so this should be extremely helpful for the railbands.

[IMG]http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/9879/fint.jpg[/IMG]
Mucking about with fin template, found another quad one on greenlight surf supply so going to print it out and compare to what I have.

[IMG]http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/6355/cant2.jpg[/IMG]
Came across a great idea on oldy's amazing thread 'Journey of a Quad', for measuring out fin cant. I think it's a genious way of doing it, in my boredom I made a crappy cardboard model of it. When I get my hands on some wood definitely going to use this technique.

As you can tell I like to plan, can't wait to get my hands on the materials and actually get started though.

 

Hi again.

My opinion is 6oz on the bottom & 4oz & 6oz on top will be fine. No detriment to performance at all. I just like to keep my boards as light as possible. But all mine are 6'8" or longer. Yours is smaller therefore lighter. With regard to power tools (planers, sanders, polishers etc.) a very presentable board can be built without them. It just takes more time & lots of effort to keep/get everything nice & smooth so a nice hand finish can be attained. A polisher is great to get a high gloss finish using either automotive T cut & polish or the specialist ones made for surfboards. BUT, why not go for a sanded gloss finish? Not high gloss but looks good. Just keep rubbing back with fine wet & dry paper. Say 240 grade first then 400, then 600 with plenty of water & some washing up detergent to make it all nice & slippery. Gives a great finish which many surfers say makes the board slicker & quicker than a high gloss finish. I'm one of them. Just in my humble opinion tho.

Have fun Mate!   

Great advice mate, I'll try the washing up detergent trick. Thanks a lot for all your help.

Went to B&Q today and picked up a small block planer amongst other things. Having had no experience with planers, I can't seem to put the parts together. It seems like I'm missing a part? The parts that I have and the description on the packet don't make sense together:
[IMG]http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/9072/packet.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/5286/partsaa.jpg[/IMG]
:S

Couldn't get MDF for the template in the right size, but got some hardwood instead. Only just long enough but should work. Drew out my template at full scale (which took a long time!), and then roughly cut it out with a stanley knife. Planning on planing and then sanding it down smooth to the actual shape. Going to need to find someplace with a table saw to cut it to my centre line I think.
I anticipate that cutting out the fins with a handsaw is going to be hellish :L
[IMG]http://img863.imageshack.us/img863/6550/templatew.jpg[/IMG]

Smallest sheet of exterior ply I could get for the fins was 2x4, I really only need 2x1 but I guess this is motivation to make more boards and a bit of breathing room if I muck up one of the fins!

I spent 20$ on a crappy jig saw and its been alive and kicking for 2 years with a lot of use. A worthwhile investment for tons of home projects. 

[quote="$1"]

Meant to post pics of the fish I was refering to in my previous comment. They are posted elsewhere but to save you going looking for them here they are. Finished shaping last week. Lammed the bottom this morning. Deck lamming happens tomorrow.

[/quote]

sorry for the hijack, but is the colour on the bottom of that board paint or tint. if tint, how did you get it like that without the colours smudging at all? 

Yeah I was thinking about picking up a cheap jigsaw for the fins, and I guess it will help in future with cutting out templates. Homebase and B&Q in the UK have some properly cheap ones which should do the job. I'm sure a circular saw's usefulness would long outlive the time it takes for me to make this board as well.

No problem at all pirate agenda, this is what the forum is for! apauly has been extremely helpful to me so far, I'm sure he'd be happy to answer your question :)

Hi again adam,

I'm a certified carpenter/joiner so if I had you here with me I could show you exactly how a block plane goes together, how to adjust it for depth of cut etc. etc. but as I can't do that, might I suggest that you pop back to B&Q with the plane & get one of the guys there to show you. Most of their older male staff are retired tradesmen.

Hi pirate, the colours on the bottom of the fish are artists quality acrylic paint, cadmium red, cadmium yellow & ultramarine blue (available from any art supplies shop) mixed with about 60% tap water & flicked at the blank with a soft bristle brush (straight on the shaped blank before laminating) total time about 10 mins & I did it all at the same time so the colours did run into each other a bit. You can see where the red & yellow became orange & the blue & yellow became green.

sweet. thought that may be the case - acrylic on foam, and not resin tint in the lam-.

A quick update: Got all my materials apart from gloss resin sitting in the garage. Seabase was out so going to have to try and pick some up in a couple weeks. Got the fins cut out and will be attempting to foil them later tonight, stupidly didnt leave a tab on the end to clamp, so I guess foiling is going to be even more fun than I already expected… Had a fair bit of spare plywood, so picked up some linseed oil and I’m going to make myself a little handplane with it.
Decided to use the idea for shaping stands that was posted in a video on korduroy, couldn’t get a length of 4x4 so just glued a couple 2x4s together. Waiting for gorilla glue to dry is tedious, the stuff is amazing though. Got one half done and waiting for the other to dry now before I finish it off and cement them into buckets. My buckets aren’t that big, so hoping there’s going to be enough stability.

I have definitely discovered that you can never have enough clamps! I’ve only got a couple of g clamps and it really limits what I can do at one time. I have an old steel vice lying around, so will pick up some bolts and get it firmly on a workbench. I’m lucky with all the tools my grandad has lying around like!

Will get some photos posted up as soon as some real progress is made :slight_smile:

OK, cut my outline out, got it smooth. Turned it over on the bottom to start getting the thickness down. Was having trouble with it but then realised it was because of the crust. The only way I found I could remove the crust was with a block plane, this has created problems -

How badly is this messed up? What should I be doing at this point?