Flex Measurement

Thanks silly. When you build yours leave room to put the crosses 4’ apart,

I think we may find that a longer span producing more movement will give

us easier comparability on the mid-flex That will magnify the differences in

the measurements. My original post wasn’t clear on that, I was trying to keep

it simple. I do think that a key to testing the mid-flex is to put the load right on

the front foot spot, centered in between the supports.

Like you said earlier, we’ll settle on some standard tests, but first I think you guys should

should build the things and play with them. Then we can revisit this thread

periodically and report what flex works for each of us. And what works in different

conditions,etc. Sound like a plan?

Mike

Longboards of course would require proportioning in some manner(there’s the hard part)

if we were going to compare measurements.

But within your own program it could be useful and I’m sure lots of people here would be

interested in seeing how your flex patterns measure out. You sure as hell get to choose

the support points for measuring flex on boards over 12’, that’s unexplored territory for

most of us.

Mike

Funny all the images making it online around the same time (sorry about the permissions issue on my crappy graphic BTW).

Looks like Mike and I were thinking along similar paths.

I agree - I think we’ll find everyone will need to standardise the span between their supports and the weight they use to make measurements that can be meaningfully compared… And also that some experimentation is needed now.

Innerestin!

Why not use the rider’s weight? I mean, each board should be adjusted to the rider. If I measure some flex with a cement bag and I weight 3 times that weight, it doesn’t mean a lot for MY ride (but yes it gives numbers, meanings have then to be found).

I would start by measuring my stance, doing takeoffs on the ground and averaging the distance between my feet. Then, I would measure flex relative to that, taking my weight and stance into account.

If I suppose the board is mainly flexing as a balance between my feet, I have to put the supports where my front foot would be and in front of that point so the front doesn’t move and push on the tail with my back foot as if I was pushing to turn, while the front foot is where it should be on the board (kind of fake surfing). Than, I should aim at x mm deflection when I am pushing on my back foot for my flex to be magic (x to be defined of course).

The supports could be moved at half the stance maybe to be more relevant, this has to be tested for sure.

These may not be the right points for those measurements, but for the principle, it would be more “biometric” and adapted to each rider.

hi mike, thanks for getting the photos up (thanks pierre),

what have you found that flex helps ,surfability?, breakage? and what can you do on a poly board to increase/decrease flex ,

i understand thinner should give more flex and vice/versa but what if you wanted the tail to bend more but without breaking?

that/s what i have been trying to achieve with my balsa compsands , flex but the ability to bend more if needed without breaking,

thats what my son is doing ,bending the tail on his poly boards past a point where breaking is inevatible, so if i can replicate the same force it takes to bend to a certain point but with the ability to bend a lot further if needed,

a jig like yours is a good starting point,

btw ,why are stringers made stiffer in the vertical plane in poly boards when a flat stringer in the centre of the boardwould probabaly help flex and still retain strength for breakage, pete

Hi Pete,

what have you found that flex helps ,surfability?, breakage?

  • way better feel

  • better control

  • flatter faster rocker when waves are slow/soft

  • curvier rocker when waves are good

  • sensation of twang is pretty hard to beat (we surf cuz it feels good right?)

and what can you do on a poly board to increase/decrease flex ,

very core density & glass schedules but more flex equals faster fatigue and quickly deteriorating board

i understand thinner should give more flex and vice/versa but what if you wanted the tail to bend more but without breaking?

much thinner tail with more glass reinforcements. look at a GG Velo Spoon…the tails are solid fiberglass and bend a lot under load…without breaking.

the problem you present is difficult to properly analyze cuz you havent posted any pics of your sons boards before and after breaking.

Pierre, in regard to loading the board with the riders’ full weight; I don’t think

a static test with that amount of weight simulates any in-the-water situation

other than a very ‘‘hard’’ aerial landing. We’re supporting the structure at only

2 points while the water distributes the load of the riders’ weight in a completely

different way. I’ve thought about trying to measure the actual forces applied

to the deck of a board through the riders weight, and the technology to do so

is available, but the cost is prohibitive. Maybe someday…

I’m glad we’ve got this thing going, silly and I were wondering if anyone was

interested there for while. Thanks to all for participating. This is going to be fun.

Mike

Hi Pierre,

While the method you suggest might work well to carefully customise flex to a rider, where both rider and shaper have a very good understanding of flex, it’s still a more “touchy, feely” or subjective approach.

There may be other reasons not use that approach (at least, on it’s own), but the biggest are probably repeatability and standardisation.

I imagine experienced riders would learn what suits them best over time (“No, sorry. That isn’t enough. I need at least a 20/15/35 flex board.”), as would shapers. The latter should take care of things for less experienced riders (“Hhhmmm… A guy of this height, weight and ability, on a board of this type, typically benefits best from 10/5/20 flex”).

But without a standardised way of measuring flex people wouldn’t have something they could ask for without excessively complicating taking the measurement.

As I’ve said before - it works very well in other pastimes.

hi, just been doing some experiments, it woun/t mean much to anyone but here goes, i have a plywood rocker bed so used this as a curved jig to hold the board with 75 kgs of weight ,

i posistioned the board so the tail was overhanging the rear of the rocker bed by 2 ft ,

i made a gauge in half inch increments and used a spring balance tied to the leash cup to pull the tail of the board down and record the effort required ,

i used my sons favourite pu board as a bench mark and was quite suprised by the results,

sons pu = 20 lb of force to deflect tail 1/2 inch , 40 lb = 1 inch

all the rest of the compsand boards i have made were between 33 and 40 lb to deflect the tail by 1/2 inch so some were twice as stiff in this are ,

as i said its not much relevance to any body else but as a comparitive test for myself , it has opened up my eyes and i will use the same test for furure boards , pete

Hey,

However crude you may think you tests are they are on the right track. If you can engineer the flex patterns into your boards consistently and have the flex consistently perform over the lifetime of the board then you have achieved something very important. Whatever your test criteria is, assign a variable to that such as X = level 1 flex or Y = level 2 flex. Keep the flex pattern consistent and let the rider decide what flex level he/she likes.

I think quantifying it is that simple.

The hard part is engineering flex patterns into your boards that are consistently repeatable over the lifetime of the boards. How do you keep the board flexing in the same places? How long does the board keep it’s pop? How do you keep the flex in the boards consistent? How do you measure how many cycles of flexing a board can withstand?

I think it’s even more important to quantify how the board snaps back to it’s baseline shape. My reasoning being that people who are truly engineering flex into their boards know what end shape their boards are in when they are at there extreme. What’s the point of having boards that bend if you can’t understand how the in-between states of the boards shape benefit the rider. For example, if flexing in the tail during a cut up the face of a wave changes the tail rocker by 1" what effect does that have? Well, we all understand pretty well what a 1" change in tail rocker shaped into a board would do, but how fast can we get rid of that rocker change when we don’t need it anymore?

You guys are on the right path. Measure it and assign an abstract variable to consistently repeatable flex patterns and let the riders tell you how much flex they like!

Shine On,

Thanks for posting your measurements, pete. Those tail flex #'s are right in line with what I’ve obtained on

pu/pe shortboards, flexing the tail up in our case. It’s going to help for future comparisons if we include

the dims of the tested boards. ( in my case that’s a 6’ x 18 1/4 x 2 3/16’')

I don’t agree that your test is not relevant to anyone else. Measuring and comparing flex is what this

thread is all about.

monkeyshines, I’d love to address recovery time, but we’re taking baby steps here and just trying to

establish some simple, consistent tests that anyone can perform in their garage. Once we’ve established that,

we can move on to more detailed analysis. Glad you see the relevance and usefulness of this project.

Again I don’t have time to talk more, I have to go shape some surfboards. You guys continue w/o me.

Mike

Hi Mike

interesting

can we also define a good set up for video’ing the flex return ?

like where to put the camera

what jig and where

what video program to use

cheers!

I understand your suggested method and the benefits of some standardization with regards to ‘flex.’ The following is not an argument against anything that has so been posted. That aside, the variation suggested below is very similar to your test, differing only in its use of geometric centers, stagnation pressures, and moveable ‘foot’ posts.

First Approximation of Flex - Loading the Geometric Center

The test which I would like to suggest involves using the geometric center of the range of expected wetted surface area. Approximations of the geometric centers of various wetted areas can easily made, though not completely without some effort.

In Figure 1, I’ve used a handy close-tolerance blank outline to illustrate what is meant by geometric center – formally, it is the center of bottom wetted surface area in this case, and its calculation is analogous to that for the center of mass, or center of gravity.

I’ve indicated the wetted areas, which might interest me for instance. In as much, I’ve divided them up into variable and constant wetted areas. Using the total expected and then just the minimum (constant wetted area) you then establish a range of locations of the geometric center (as indicated in red.) The diagram is not meant to be accurate; it was created it for illustration.

The geometric center can be considered the center of loading of the force arising from the flow in a wave –i.e. the stress load on the bottom. You simply flip the board, place your weight on the bottom surface somewhere on the red line, and then use either padded posts or blocks, each of which of similar, or of slightly larger surface than that of a foot, to mimic where a surfer might place his feet on the deck. See Figure 2.

As a first approximation to loading, I would use, stagnation pressure – a quick and dirty estimate of the pressure from a ‘head-on’ flow – which can be calculated using a simple formula. If you now know the wetted area, and a stagnation pressure, you therefore know the force. You can use weighted bags mimic the load, keeping them in roughly the same region as the geometric center. (It is possible to be more precise here, but going into at this point seems unnecessary.)

I understand that this appears to be more complex than your method, at least at first, as well as lacking the degree of standardization of your test - not to mention, it evolves math. Nevertheless, aside from attempting to control the geometric variablity, here are a few reasons why I think the method may have some merit.

  1. All parameters of the test are easily communicated.

  2. The force resulting from the flow is only communicated via the wetted surface –i.e. it is only the wetted surface that is in play, but it doesn’t exclude cases involving the whole board.

  3. Using stagnation pressures is crude, but there is no restriction as to how much force can be applied, and you can work backwards if you know the force to water velocity.

  4. Thought here I’ve used a symmetric case where the wetted area is rail-to-rail symmetric, it need not be - hence you can may be able to gauge ‘flex’ for any number of circumstances e.g. when the wetted area is asymmetric.

  5. Though not apparent from the figure, the feet are moveable – back, forward, left and right.

When running the test, it obvious that measuring rail position before and after will likely go a long way.

Summary Notes

The measurement is a first approximation. The test model here is based on the assumption is that there would be a equilibrium between surfer/surfboard weight and load. That said, you could write volumes on what this kind of test isn’t going to tell you, and how it might be misleading. In particular, once you strain the structure, here the board, things change, i.e. it’s a crude first approximation.

kc


interesting stuff guys

guess i better get a spring balance this week

will get back to you guys soon

thats a really cool simple method pete

im might tighten mine down to the table with compression straps

A very interesting variation. Let’s allow the forum to digest this, and if enough

participants desire it’s inclusion, we’ll go with it. I’m trying to get to something

we can all agree on (I realize that’s a daunting task), so that comparisons of

measurements will be valid.

A couple of observations: Any padding on the supports must be standardized

or it would render comparisons useless. Also, the use of simulated ‘‘feet’’ is a

fun idea. Anybody have a line on anatomically correct fake feet? Again, we’d

all have to use the same product. You buyin’??

At Coil, we’ve used this flex measurement to aid in engineering the lam schedule

to tune the characteristics of our boards. You can also see how shape contours

affect flex, which is another interesting subject. I’ll post up some of our #'s later,

as we revisit this thread.

Can’t wait to see silly’s #'s, from his videos it looks like he has achieved a good

flex in a cored-skin board, which is not easy.

Mike

had one that turned out too flexy

it had 3mm pvc skins over 2 oz

with 3 oz over the top

only the back plugs were tied to the deck

however the last 5 boards have been amazing feeling boards

3 all balsa and two hybrids

none of these boards have been shown yet wrt flex

the softer bottom allows for more material on the deck skin

using low density eps makes things easier

i can say one thing though

it seems the nature of the board is decide before it is glassed

in other words outer glass does stiffen the board

but you have to achieve the pop/flex by careful layups,foil, rail shape and material density and longitudal stiffness

this is all before the outerglass goes on

believe it or not the light eventually turns on in your head after enough boards

sabs once said that repeatability is essential

to know what going on

so you need to stick to build system

and work on only one aspect of the construction at a time

so build a few board experimenting with thickness/width combos

but keep everything else the same

the very nature of composite boards means that anything thicker than 2 1/4 in a short boards

starts to feel very stiff and boat like

that where id be looking first

hi mike / silly, all the boards i tested , 5 in all , are 6ft 1 in x 18 1/4- 18 1/2x 2 - 2 1/4, all had the same glass schedule on the bottoms but with different glass and wood combo/s on the deck , the flexeist one of the lot and it was only marginly so also had the thinest tail ,so thickness had more influence than glass and wood layups,

non are really that thicker than each other only very slight differences ,i will measure the thickness at the 2ft mark as a point of reference,

i have some ideas of what i am going to try but will build something first and see how it goes, pete

Actually, IMO this is an excellent way of measuring flex in the tail and nose. I gave some consideration to mentioning something similar myself, because this is quite similar to how bows are measured… But people were talking about the middle of the board and this method isn’t that conducive to that.

FYI, with bows we measure how much force/weight it takes to flex the bow to a predefined deflection. The standard is 21" of total deflex for the whole thing. To “profile” the entire force/draw characteristics we simply measure force to deflect every inch (and then graph).

For measuring the nose and tail flex I think this is very valid. And measuring nose and tail flex may very well be all we need.

In fact, it seems to me that we are very close to having measurable flex. We can express the flex on the tail of Pete’s son’s board as:

"

40lb@1"

We can standardise quite easily if we agree on measuring standard deflection as weight to flex the end two feet of the the board, tail and then nose (if applicable). So if we agree that flex for one inch is all thats needed and that we’ll express it in pounds Pete’s son’s board might give us the easy stats of 40/55 (pulling the latter out of my head).

IMO deflection should be measured as bend towards the deck tho… But just my opinion, YMMV :smiley:

Anyone else want to post some measurements done the same way? All you really need is a decent spring-weight, like those used in fishing. Or your regular bathroom scales… :smiley:

There are some additional refinements and considerations I’d like to discuss/highlight once everyone has digested this lot :smiley:

hi, doug ,i measured tail deflection on a down pull , ie flattening the rocker ,to me this is the way a board will flex , a flattening and then a return to its original rocker , i can/t see how a board will increase its rocker that much, i think also bottom contours come into play depending on how you deflect the tail , a deep single will probably be easier to flatten rather than increase rocker,so a standard up or down deflection is needed to make it the same for everybody,

as an aside ,my son took out the last woody board i made ,he has got no polyboards left so he is board less for the minute, 4-5ft hollow beach break , 4 3/4 lb ,6ft 1 18 3/4 x2 , 0.8 mm wood top and bottom 4 and a patch on the deck 4 on the bottom 4 under,

he reports board is way faster than his poly boards but top to bottom his poly boards feel better , i think the lightness for him ,he can generate speed quicker but the top to bottom stuff is the result of stiffness , if i can get the best of both worlds , the speed and lightness and also the flex of the poly ,it should be an unbeatable combination,

this board had a tail deflection of 35 lb as opposed to his poly of 20 lb @1/2 inch, pete

We seem to be reaching agreement on the tail flex test. It doesn’t really matter how

you locate or fix the front part of the board, so there can be some individuality there

without affecting the comparibility of our results. Last 24’', pull up or down(do both and

see if there’s a diff?).

Doug: Your archery experience makes for good analogies to what we’re doing here.

     And it validates the need for these types of comparisons. Thanks for your input. 

Pete: You got the ball rolling on actually posting up numbers, good on you. I didn’t want

     to start the thread and put up a bunch of our stuff first, this is about reaching 

     a consensus, not me trying to tell everyone what to do.  

     Interesting point about trying to get the poly flex #'s in a stronger construction, 

     that's exactly what we do at Coil. That's why we started measuring flex. The  

     board on the jig in my photo's tests out to the same #'s as your son's poly boards. 

silly: I guess we got this going, thanks for your help. You’ve noted increased flex improved

    your boards performance, how far have you gone with that? 

regards to all,

Mike