Foam

Industry Talk
21

"Boy what turbulent times…also heard a certain retailer was VERY unhappy that their Biofoam based stock inventory is yellowing INSIDE the showroom.

Bummer.

…life shouldn’t be this hard. Sheeeeesh. " ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Biofoam blank that I won in the Swaylock’s raffle 2007 was yellow to start with…don’t understand how it could become more yellow. Maybe it’s the resin? Maybe I out smarted the retailer by glassing my board with a resin pigment…(smile)…

I have a one year old EPS/Epoxy board that has yellowed but it really looks like hell under flouresent lights…rides like magic!

time to go surfing…

22

The shake-out in the PU blank biz is happening right now. Lotsa factors at work, but the slow economy and glut

of import boards are speeding up the inevitable; there aren’t going to be more than 2-3 PU survivors in the US

market. Some companies that export to us but aren’t dependent on our market may still be available in addition

to these US producers (Rhyno and some Australians come to mind).

My vote for best foam has to go to Rhyno. The technical quality of the foam is unsurpassed. US Blanks has a great

product also, and Clark-like service, rocker program, and custom capability. No surprise there, as it’s ex-Clark people.

Ice-9 seems to have a lot of potential, but I personally have not seen product living up to that potential. I hear good

things from others, though, and I wish them success. I have not seen the Blair foam, so I can’t comment one way or

the other on that product. Lots of you in California may not have seen the Rhyno, they have a huge market to supply

in Brazil and it’s hard enough to get containers of it to Florida.

23

Well…two things.

There were HB Biofoam blanks that were ‘straw colored’ to begin with. And then there are ones that had white coloring HB Biofoam blanks . I shaped 3 HB Biofoam blanks last year and one of the three blew a huge bubble on the underside of the nose where the concave was shaped in. I was told just to strip it and to do a cheater coat of resin and that would solve the problem. Unfortunately it did not. In fact I tried a number of ‘barrier’ approaches (even Bondo!) and it blew thru that too…

The other 2 boards turned out nice but dented easier then expected which surprised me as I was told the foam resisted denting (compression) far better than Clark Foam. I didn’t find that to be true. The boards were sent East to a shop and I rec’d feedback that they too are yellowing.

I have no idea if this has been corrected or not, and I have no desire to try the foam again to find out IF it has been fixed or not…even if I had a money tree growing in my backyard, I would not spend my cash on something so absolutely frustrating and unprdictable.

As I said before, Clark didn’t give me sh-t like this.

You can put out 1,000 primo boards, and all it takes is one substandard blank to wreck you…

…there oughta be a law!

24

Mike…thanks for chiming in.

I used a fair amount of Ice 9 Cane now and it has been decent overall. The Walker Mowses formula shaped incredibly well…actually, the way foam should shape…this is TDI vs MDI process. There have been some voids here and there thru different shipments but they are aware of this and working hard to correct the problem. I have never rec’d any blanks with voids that weren’t a simple fix.

The West Coast buzz says good things about Scott Saunder’s Just Foam as well as Blair’s Foam (which apparently is in the same building next to Ice 9…though no affiliation).

Surfblanks (Midget Farrelly’s Foam orignally from Austrailia, with his formulas being blown south of Ensenada Mexico) are regarded as consistent quality and strong. I’ve shaped some and the foam is harder foam and shapes with more of a sawing action. Reports have been of no yellowing.

U.S. Blanks have a ready supply of blanks at Fiberglass Hawaii in Ventura and seem to be the most established distributor throughout CA…they are being talked down by their competitors. The claims are that their foam is super soft inside the blank as you remove the top layer compared to other foams out there. This is very difficult to quantify unless you have your own ram/gauge and wish to test i for yourself…everyone making the claims has their own agenda and it is difficult to trust someone vested with one company making claims against other competitors.

Ted from Fiberglass Hawaii is a partner in U.S. Foam and has been in the industry for decades even (at one time and perhaps still) supplying the resin to make Burford blanks in Austrailia…sending containers to Oz. They also have outlets all over the place…like Michigan, etc. . I just p/u a roll of their new FH 4 oz cloth for a tryout…they also have 6 oz. and the prices are excellent. I’ll see if it resembles Hexcel or JP and get back with feedback…people seem to like how it wets out and the workability of it.

It’s funny about this foam thing…I actually hope sh-t hits the fan and we see throngs of people making BS claims going down in flames…I know that sounds mean, but it’s just as mean to be promised quality then ge crap to try to build perfect surfboards with. I want the posers gone NOW!

Update: I used the FH 4 oz e glass and it performed quite well. Easy wet out, not of loose strand unraveling, boards were bright and white with cloth on. Good so far…

25

blair is in gardenia and ice-9 in orange, blair facility is a block or 2 from us blanks in gardenia. try a blair and you won’t need to worry about the rest. bruce go talk to steve brom he just got a few blair see what he has to say.

26

Thanks for the clarification…about factory locales…I was given misinformation…easy to happen in this day and age. I stand corrected.

I’ll talk to Steve…someoone knowledgeable and trustworthy to be sure. Thanks.

27

I love this discussion…and am quickly coming to realize that there must be lots of inconsistency in the marketplace from all manufacturers (otherwise, there would be a clearer favorite). With that said, lots of you are talking about US Blanks, Blair and Ice 9. I have worked with USB and Blair, as well as Surfblanks America (Midget Farrelly’s foam system being blown in Mex). I am actually a little surprised that there wasn’t more of a mention of Surfblanks…tends to be my favorite right now…hard foam, stays white, feels as light or lighter than others I’ve used, etc. My issue is that I haven’t used any in great quantities, so I can’t speak to consistency.

In any event, I am really glad all of you have taken the time to respond…I continue to learn and will continue doing my best to put out a quality surfboard.

28

Surfblanks is a good call…there are many that are not mentioned here…like Warvel. They have a ton of capacity for producing EPs and MDI blanks, sheet foam, parabolics and more…I haven’t used them. Wonder who has?

I have used mostly Ice 9 and overall the experience has been good. However, I am also being very honest in stating that I want fool proof at the best price. I don’t want a bunch of fluctuations from batch to batch, I don’t accept foam that turns yellow (unless I’m the oone doing it), I’ll nix anyblank company that can’t get their stringers glued up straight, and gassing is good reason to send them a mail bomb.

Shaping Surfblanks will make you stronger, that’s for sure…get out the 40 grit.

29

Thanks…so, I guess the only other thing I am wondering based on all the comments in the discussion is how does all this shake out? It seems clear that lots of little manufacturers can’t survive (given the economics)…so who stays and who goes? Should be based on quality (including consistency) and service, right? Is the struggle still on for the survivors, or is the market starting to settle in to a few select manufacturers? Seems like we are still all over the board, so maybe a few more years of “innovation” until we see clear leaders…

30

Leashplug…a few more years of “innovation”?

Don’t be naive…a few more years of f-ckups at our expense is more like it.

Sorry to sound calloused by it all but the truth is there are plenty of people that thought they would go into the foam blank business to make a bunch of money. Unfortunately their learning curve and subsequent mistakes impacts board builders everywhere regardless of size and stature.

I’m not saying anyone is at fault for the scenarios that happened after Clark chose to close…these are growing pains that have gone on for years now after the event…most of us would have hoped things would be fleshed out and stabilized by now…building good quality surfboards is chllenging enough without the aggravation of varying quality of foam.

So who will survive? Most likely the ones that have the most money, experience, established distribution, and quality…pretty much in that order. You notice that quality isn’t first. It should be, and some may argue the point, but the best product is not always the winner, by any means.

Will all the foam come from offshore as Mike Daniels sort of suggests? I hope not. America is already up for sale enough. The increase of foreclosures on people’s homes are resulting in home sales being scooped up by foreigners whose dollars have risen against ours.

This is a tenuous time for American business and the consumer.

Historically we have been excellent at reinventing ourselves…this needs to happen now more than ever.

31

I agree with your comments, Deadshaper. Why do you think “innovation” was in quotes?

In a perfect world, quality would prevail. There is also quite a bit to be said for buying locally (environmentally friendlier, support local economy and businesses, etc.). I guess we’ll have to wait and see what happens.

Take care. See you in the water.

32

I hadn’t noticed your innovation was in quotes…today must be my Oops day…ah well.

I wonder if genetically changed vegetables are good for you? Look at the genetically changed foam and the ‘surprises’ were having with them. I’ve got my own orchard and garden at home and feel pretty good that I won’ get sallmonella from it. Local is good. Let the Chinese learn how to surf and supply themselves.

Happy 4th of July.

33

I already see the reinvention - I know of three individual foam companies and their distributors who are sharing warehouse space and shipping resources. I would be surprised if they’re not all using the same stringer people. I can see some mergers down the line, with a few individuals either going under or barely hanging on. Anyway you slice it, we still have a bunch of PU foamers, how cool is that? The economy will make it tight for awhile, but it’s just another cycle … we all have to sit tight and ride it out …

ps - picked up some Blair’s … nice!

pss - because of the economy there’s some deals on foam happening too … seek and ye shall find!

Quote:

34
Quote:

Will all the foam come from offshore as Mike Daniels sort of suggests? I hope not.

Just to clarify, I didn’t mean to suggest that all the foam would or should come from offshore. My intent was

to say that companies like Rhyno that are established and have a large market of their own to service are going

to be there no matter what happens to US based (and dependent) manufacturers.

35
Quote:

Historically we have been excellent at reinventing ourselves…this needs to happen now more than ever.

Reinvention has not happened in this industry in a long time. Several decades of the same materials. The longer you leave it, the more likely you are to fold when the change does hit. But necessity is the mother of innovation, but this industry is sure going to be very different five years from now.

36

the reinvention has happened over the last 20 years…

from PCB’s to surftech and sandwich and EPS. it just isnt as good(read cost effective, performing or simple) its like the better mousetrap! the whole thing is about customers and customer service… people keep buying PU because they can meet and greet the people who make it… and as little johnny sheep grows up from his mass produce or popped out board he is going to want to meet someone who knows thier stuff about how to make him the right shape from whatever the right materials are to suit him. the whole swaylocks movement is made up of people who want to get hands on with the craft of making themselves and others a right or correct board…

37

I’m with Feral on this…a life w/out passion is a dead life…believe me, I know.

Necessity is the Mother of Invention…no doubt, but necessity doesn’t demand someone ride a popout (or a hand shape for that matter). The personal interaction is what my custom-ers enjoy. They feel like someone truly cares in hearing what their needs and asipartions are.

I love making Ferrari’s…but not all my customers want one of those. Some just want a cool aircraft carier to go tool around in knee high waves.

Different strokes for different folks, and I am honored to help realize their mind’s eye…

38
Quote:
Quote:

Historically we have been excellent at reinventing ourselves…this needs to happen now more than ever.

Reinvention has not happened in this industry in a long time. Several decades of the same materials. The longer you leave it, the more likely you are to fold when the change does hit. But necessity is the mother of innovation, but this industry is sure going to be very different five years from now.

The reinvention part of it I was talking about was in a much larger sense…the domestic economy and are current challenges within the United States.

Help me Mr Wizard!!!

39

Hmm, maybe I should say innoavtion? It’s like the petrol engine. A more refined version of the same thing. The problem I see with PU/PE is it gets more and more expensive but doens’t really offer any substantial improvements in durability. Compare surfboard foam to something like say computers, and it’s all a bit backwards really. A nice desktop PC ten years ago cost about $3,000. Now it’s more like $2,000. And they’re much better in performance. So value for money for computers has really improved in my eyes over the years. Now take polyurethane foam and lamimate with polyester. Better performance than ten years ago? Sure. More durable and cheaper as well? Well umm…

40

The problem I see with PU/PE is it gets more and more expensive but doens’t really offer any substantial improvements in durability

Real surfers do not care about durability.

Durablity vs. Performance

Average Joe vs. Ripper

PU/PE is not going away. EPS/Epoxy is cool and has a place, however most good surfers are back on PU after trying the EPS/ Epoxy.

What is wrong with built in obsolesence? Make a 13 year old kid a board in January = 5’6" x 17 x 1.90" June = 5’7" x 17.25 x 2.0" minmium 2 per year.

Why make a board that last forever? Durablity vs. Performance vs. Cost!

Other example: Make a 25 year old a board = 6’2" x 18.25" x 2.25" He gets married has kids and now only surfs the week-end and is 30 = 6’3" x 18.75" x 2.38"

During that time you have made boards each season adjusting for his body and activity levels. Maybe now he needs to just get a board at Costco every two years. But he doesn’t because when he’s hanging out on the week-end at his local break with the boyz he has to have a new board to show he’s still core.

The Surfboard is still apart of the experience. Getting a new board from time to time keeps the stoke going. A buckled board? So what, get a new one.

A nice desktop PC ten years ago cost about $3,000. Now it’s more like $2,000. And they’re much better in performance. So value for money for computers has really improved in my eyes over the years.

You can’t compare computers with surfboards. Millions of consumers world wide buy and use computers. Therefore the manufacturing cost are reduce from the effiency of mass production.

I’ve been surfing since 1970 and I believe that boards have improved and are more refine than ever. In the seventies while living on the North Shore I was riding single fin guns with heavy glass jobs with Boxy rails. The boards today are more foiled with detail to fin placement, concaves, rail transition, entry rocker, tail rocker and so on. Today and especially over the last 10 years boards are being more and more refined. It’s all about the shape. Watch some surf films from the 60’s - 70’s - 80’s - 90’s and compare to the present surfing of today. Boards are made to fit the level of surfing intented. The material’s are just there to protect the shape. Just until it’s time to make another one!

Surfboards manufacturing is still an art form. It requires design innovation and tailoring to fit ones needs.

They are more personal and always will be. Sure you will have pop outs from China for the Gremmies being

introduced to the sport. Once this new consumer gets hooked he or she will want custom.

As Dead said different strokes for different folks.