Foam

Industry Talk
41

It’s not realistic to compare computers to surfboard production. Do you think you can compare 80,000 Surf Techs per year to Dell, Apple, Toshiba, or HP?

Computers, esp. the cheap Notebooks and Lap tops are woefully underpowered with RAM and have the most basic systems in them. My wife had a Toshiba Satellite that worked well but ended up spilled on and she rec’d an “equal” warranty replacement thru the expensive additional warranty she opted for at Circuit City ($300+).

They sent her a Compaq Presario C552US (HP) and the thing had Windows Vista Home Basic (she had had XP) and it came with 512MB of RAM…

The thing is a piece of crap. First it couldn’t p/u the DSL signal from over 45 feet! They state inside reception should be up to 150’ & outside up to 300 ft…not even close. I went thru this with Verizon DSL and walked with the computer away from the router modem as they told me how many bars I was losing at 20, 30 and 40 feet…just pathetic. Then I was told by knowledgeable computer folks that 512mb isn’t enough to run Vista Home Basic (the cheapest they could give her). Nearly everyone I have talked to absolutely hates Vista.

This isn’t a computer site so I’ll just finish by saying I ended up spending $30 and sticking additional RAM in her computer and it is faster but still a piece of crap compared to what she had previously.

To compare that to the surfboard experience would be like me saying that I sold someone a custom high performance board with a very expensive warranty, then they had a problem and spilled acid all over it, and I made them an “equal or better” new one…except this one pearled on 88% of takeoffs if you could even catch the wave. The first board had two layer of glass on the deck but the new EQUAL board had one layer of 2 ounce…and I also saved money by using a blank with a lot less foam…sorry you can’t catch waves…oh and the logo will fade in 3 weeks…but boy, my bottom line sure is looking good from that expensive warranty you bought.

Custom hand shapes are a commitment to a craft and to be a master craftsman the rule is it takes 25 years to earn the title that evolves from Apprentice, Journeyman, and so on…to some of us the term “Master Craftsman” still means something…in fact, a great deal.

There is a term a friend of mine uses; the “BSF”…Bullshit Factor. This frequently gets applied to how big it was the day you missed it…was it really triple overhead? Or do we divide by 2 and minus 3 ft. ? Same goes for shapers…has he really shaped 15,000 boards, or do we divide by 5 and minus 1,000?

The hand shapers I know have felt the challenge of competing with machines. We used to be accurate within 1/8" …now it is more like 1/16" or even finer. To most of us that are experienced, a variance of 1/4" is a huge number…way off! I know some 'famous shapers that have never ben symmetrical. Some guys write the dims on the board per the customer’s order, but if you put a tape to them they aren’t even close!!! Symmetry has very little to do with the function of a great working design. Understanding how to work with compound curves does…for many of us, that remains the attraction.

New surfboard designs have prompted me to evolve into using different types of tools than just the planer and conventional hand tools. The planer is a great tool but it’s own physical limitations warrant use of tools that are capable of finer detail. My planer can only contour within a finite range that the design demands have surpassed.

Deck, concave and rocker sticks evovle to more sophisiticated contour scribes, Squares are the rough visual and contour calipers are the final…and so on…

…hand shapers evolve, don’t kid yourselves…at least the good ones do. If symmetry was the only criteria that made for a great surfboard, everything would have gone to CNC 40 years ago.

42

Interesting thread. Although I haven’t shaped a lot of the new stuff I have looked at a lot and shaped some. From what I’ve seen the PU out there isn’t very impressive. Most of it is heavy as hell. A Clark green was 3.05 in density and almost no one was using that weight when they closed prefering lighter weights. Most of the stuff I see is now heavier than green and no one is close to the ultralight. I’ve done some shaping in some of the stuff mentioned above and have gotten nothing but voids, shot gun, stretch and shrinkage. There are some good plugs out there but few of those seem to have good foam coming out of them. I’m trying hard here not to be specific about manufacturers but there is some real garbage out there that you guys are trying to make good boards from and little good stuff.

Believe it or not, I’m a guy sitting on the fence making resin which is used on all foams and so I’m not supporting or dissing anyone. This all will eventually boil down to the best guys (maybe) but where will that leave us? I’m really not sure. Will deep pockets with bad product outlive good product with shallow pockets? Will distribution and freebees win out over quality?

The amount of investment that has gone into PU in the last two and a half years will never be recouped by any of these companies and how long investors will accept losing money is a real question. Expensive startup, voracous competition, difficult distribution, shrinking market and low margins. There is basically no way to win, from a business standpoint. The PU blank businesses also don’t have enough margin to ever be sold so there looks to be no reasonable way to get the investment back. The promise of all these businesses was that they would all become rich like Clark. Clark became wealthy by business practice more than through chemistry. No one doing this today has the organizational skills or experience he did and therefore any company coming close to that model will take years to achieve (if ever). After all it took Clark 30 years to acheve all they were.

Remember too, that at the end Clark’s pricing reflected no overhead. The buildings, machines and inventory were all payed for and those costs were not added to the blanks.

One of the rules when starting a business, don’t think you can do it better, faster, or cheaper than others in the business your looking to compete in. Chances are, without the experience, you’ll do it worse. Make sure the business your getting into is profitable enough to pay for your inexperience. Surfboard blanks aren’t and these guys are losing fortunes.

43

Hey Greg - former Brevardian here so you know I’m not gonna hack on ya here - but, don’t you think the Aussie and So. American foam will always be available in the USA? Most seem pretty good (although some of the So. Amer. stuff is too soft for me)… I like Bennet and Surfblanks America (I seem to think I saw Burford available too?), and U.S. Blanks seem pretty stable (?)… on top of it all, aren’t all of them (or most) foaming in Mexico now? Just wondering, I’m a die hard PU guy since the late 60’s and build old style stuff anyway (like the weight)… please don’t tell me I’m going to have to switch to wood eventually … (although the thought is intriguing). Just wanted some feedback from you (and others), like I said, I’m from your neck of the woods so not disputing, just wondering …

44

Add to the fact it’s not very difficult to make your own EPS blanks, China (and soon to be Mexico?) and the future looks even bleaker for many PU blank manufacturers. All that really remains is learning the shortcomings of EPS and how to work around it and then there will only be a handful of PU blank manufacturers left in say five years?

45

Greg,

Being cognizant of your extensive past experience, your thoughts are appreciated and backed by the many years of in the trench experience that some of us have on this site.

I haven’t chimed in for a bit as I was in transit to France in a roundabout way that only “non-revs” (flight crew flying space available) can truly grasp. LHR (London Heathrow is such a mess right now…place sprawls forever…thank god it was softened by a FC seat and lay down bed on the way over the pole from LAX.

Anyway, I agree that the challenges are formidable for any PU blank company out there. I mentioned Warvel briefly in the thread a bit earlier as browsing thru it, not only did I note your affiliation with the company but the breadth of their offering. This is not unlike Clark, who diversified by offering sheet foam with options not only in thicknesses and densities of sheets but features like perforation and pre-scoring. I’m not quite sure how any of these new start ups will compete and survive while exclusively offering surfboard blanks only?

This leads me to believe that domestic companies like Marko and Warvel will stand to have a more durable position as time rolls on.

Any thoughts?

P.S.

Weather is flawless here (low 70’s). I survived Bastille Day, and more importantly the Fireman’s Ball…crazy crazy fun loving French!

46

Just checked back in and love to see the discussion continuing. Greg’s comments are well-taken–I agree that various market forces make it tough for the PU manufacturers out there right now–but that shouldn’t take away from the broader point. SOME domestic (include Mexico for fun) manufacturers will have to survive to supply the market here (declining or not). My original question revolved around the concept of whether selecting the “best” foam out there will significantly impact my final product and sought opinions regarding what that “best” foam might be. It is clear that the “best” foam is pretty illusive…and greatly depends upon who you ask. Does this mean the the foam doesn’t matter that much (since there is no clear consensus on the best manufacturer) and that the manufacturer(s) that survive will be those that are run efficiently from both operational and sales/customer service standpoints without too much regard for product?

47

Allusive (allude) and illusive (illusion)…to be sure.

The foam matters a great deal, don’t kid yourself. Keep in mind, if it was that simple the whole scene would be considerably different than what it is.

Ask yourself what the ride feels like from EPS or PU? Surfers have very definitive preferences.

What about the reinforcement used on the preferred core? Conventional E glass? Warp glass with 2/3rd’s of the strands running on the warp (lengthwise)? Or do you have PVC or high density sheet foam (6 lb.)…stiffness of carbon? Hollow?

Way back when Karl Pope created W.A.V.E. Hollow (Wave Apparatus Vehicular Engineering), and I was a team rider. I wasn’t eager to do this as I made my own boards and had been a team rider for John Bradbury’s Creative Freedom and had interacted with Mike Hynson and the Bahne natural rocker downrailers that he, Brewer and Dif had incepted. Natural rocker was the single most important development of the era…hands down.

But back to the point…hollow boards ride differently. I found I manually had to direct the board off the top and that the distribution of the boards provided a considerably different riding experience. In a demand for lighter weight Karl agreed to shift my boards from nylon honeycomb to aluminum. The boards were strong, but I managed to put my knee through one one a big dayat El Capitan. Also split a rail or two.

Shapers like Brewer and Steve Moret (Bahne) were starting to contribute and I persuaded Bradbury to make a 7’6"…but I also suggested that he make it thinner than a usual p.u. foam version because of the difference in floatation. That semi gun turned out really well.

So the core is a huge consideration…bottom line. But all the other variables are of paramount importance too. I’m looking at H glass from Germany and have rec’d info from the company there. This stuff is structurally very attracteive with improved resistance to compression but can net a 30% t 40% lighter result because of it’s non solid structure. Flexural characteristics are also impressive.

All of it is symbiotic.

48

The surfblanks foam is hard. Harder than Clark for sure. The red color which is their superlight is by far much lighter than clark superlight. In my opinion it is the lightest/ strongest of foams I’ve felt. I shaped a couple of chippy little shortboards out of it and a stepup or 2 and was really impressed with it. Probably wouldnt have even given it a go cause I had heard some bad things about it but upon my last trip to Portugal I got to handshape a few of the Surfblanks Africa. The foam was good besides some little pukas that would make finish work slightly tougher. But I really liked the rocker and weight/strength of the 6’8" blank. Since then the surfblank America guy just moved across the street so I see myself using a lot more of this in my shortboards.

Ive seen numerous Usblanks blowing air as of lately and because of that have avoided them. Ontop of that everyone says…“its just like clark” which is exactly the reason Im exercising other options which are much harder.

Blair is good and strong and doesnt tear. reminds me of king mac (now that I cant get kingmac anymore.)Just had a batch of a dozen go through. They all turned out nice and light, the foam is strong and as I said probably my favorite to handshape as their fish blank has a good rocker and the foam shapes like butter.

Justfoam has been good and strong and the boards from these last two batches are holding up well. Just went up there yesterday and bought some more blanks. they had some nice colorful glueups and the foam is definitely hard. Lots of people have told me they suck up too much resin but Ive got a full opaque resin tint top and bottom on a fish with lokbox and 4 fiberglass fins and if anything it may BARELY be over 5 lbs. It was laminated by Vader though so you know it’s done right.

But because of this I no longer believe what anybody tells me about foam. Especially other foam guys! badmouthing their competition.

Best way to figure it out is a try a little bit of eveyrthing you can get your hands on and then make your own decision on what you want to use by what you’ve experienced.

49

Thanks, DJK. Surfblanks has been my foam of choice (I may have mentioned that before). Where did “the surfblanks guy” just move in? I thought he was in Carpinteria/Santa Barbara…

50

Deadshaper…thanks for the grammar lesson. (It was a purposeful use of the term “illusive” though…signifying the illusion of the “best” blank.) You never know what you might learn at Swaylocks. Much love…I appreciate all of your submissions…grammatically correct or not.

51

Marko already had the infrastructure. The surfboard blank business to them is a piece of their business. They won’t live or die on surfboards. Expect them to be around. Warvel is the same and you can expect the same of them. IMHO the WMD blanks they make can produce the best boards on the market today. Makes the most of a cross section of materials.

Many of the others who are strictly surfboard suppliers will see that bank account dwindle every time the sport takes a downturn because of business cycle or just a long flat spell. With all the competition, poor margins and distribution problems … I’ve done blanks , three times , it’s thankless. At least when you build boards you get to deliver a nice pretty product to a stoked customer. Blanks are like making tires, everyone needs em but no one is passionate about buying them. Really, Clark had it down in every respect. Take a look at the Aussie blank biz. None of those guys were getting rich until Clark closed and weathy Americans threw millions at them in hopes of becoming the next Grubby.

As far as the imports go, the guys importing right now are losing money as well. There’s just no margin. The things are big, take a lot of space, are hard to ship, it’s difficult to get your money, etc, etc, etc. To get imports you have to have someone pony up the bucks for the container. Not many surfboard guys can throw down 40K for a container of foam. Please understand that when Quick brings in a container of clothing their getting stuff for $5 and selling it for $20. With blanks I’m importing for $40 and getting $45 … maybe $50. Out of that huge $10 margin I have to pay for all my overhead. This includes warehouse, labor, insurance, office expense, distribution expense, packaging, workmans comp, accounting, recievables, lost or damaged product, etc, etc. Pardon me … but I’ll open a friggin surfshop and buy the Quicks for $20 and sell them for $40. Or with all the millions I’ve spent on my foam biz I could have just gone to China and bought the trunks direct for $5 and sold them for $40 out of my own retail outlet … wait a minute … I think I’ll discount them for $30 and kick my competitions ass. But I guess some got caught up in the moment, that one that happened on 12/5.

I’m not saying PU is going away … not at all. But if the business is going to survive then the persons left will be accepting of the downsides of this business they chose or the surfboard guys and their customers will have to accept higher prices so the foam guys can make a little money. I’m personally not seeing that happening and EPS does loom large in what the PU guys can charge. Many of the guys who are in it today are probably wondering what the hell they did this for. If they step back and look at what they thought they were getting into and see now what they’re actually into, they’d be running away as fast as they can. Understandably many right now are.

52

EPS cost more than PU!

EPS blanks are $60 to $70.

PU is $20 - $50.

Glass them in Epoxy. Why not?

I did a few PU’s in your RR and they were unreal.

Austin foam has the lock down on the EPS suppliers so you can’t get good deals on the EPS blocks to make the blanks yourself.

You may as well use PU blanks because there are thousands available. Especially in Orange County. Plus more Australians are wanting to import foam over here?

I heard that the south africans will invest more money in KING MAC? A company from South America is wanting to build a factory in Mexico and install cnc machines and a glass shop. That one is so funny! We will see more and more millions of dollars burn in the blank industry.

53

You can get hold of Andrew at Surfblanks at sales@surfblanksamerica.com

no worries about the grammar…approximate is just fine for me. Greenough used to talk a mile a minute stream of conciousness kinda thing and later on had nearly mastered his stuttering…I used to tell people it helps to ‘feel’ what George is saying more than try to digest it literally…very very smart guy but more importantly a real fun loving mate.

54

You raise an interesting question…and one I have thought about before. Why is it so funny that a company might seek to manufacture blanks, mill them, finish shape them and glass them all under one roof? Doesn’t that cut lots of unnecessary shipping costs and solve many inefficiencies? (Of course, this assumes that the company that does this can do it all well and efficiently, which may be easier said than done.) Aren’t companies doing this already with some success overseas? Why not here?

55

If you study surf history you will find that Greg Noll had this matrix back in the sixties and was successfull with this approch at one time. Today it’s much more complicated some 50 years later as we have much higher overheads with workmans comp, permits, payroll taxes and insurance. Being in California is the best state for surfing but bad for business. To put a factory under one roof with a organizational management structure would be Ideal. However the EGO’s in California could never harmonisly work together. In overseas factories there is less ego and more production. Quality Circles would be laughed at by most board builders here in the US. TQM, ISO-9000, Dr. Demming, Juran and the various management methods could save our industry. However Surfboard Manufacturing will stay a cottage industry for the custom board builders. Already every cold water surfer is wearing a Chineese made wetsuit. All our traction pads, leashes, board bags, swim trunks, surf clothing, sandals and soon all our fin systems will all be out sourced. All of these products were made here at one time. Surfing is now main stream and part of the global economy. The key to existing is staying core and building boards because you love it and your customers who are core still want custom. Keep it in perspective and enjoy the ride just don’t think you will become rich doing it! Unless your in the rag business and well branded. Most of the shapers today have another sources of income. Only a hand full actually make a semi-decent living building boards. Building a surfboard is very addictive. That’s why this site exists and we all keep coming back to see were it’s all going. It’s a saga that never ends! The Foam Industry just adds to all the drama.

56

I’ll take a Stratavarius over a machine made violin anytime.

Bonne Nuit

DS at large

57

Thanks Ding. I have another income source and shape only because I truly enjoy it…and love that first moment of handing a board to somebody. Stoke and excitement. Living the dream. I guess I’ll keep going with the foam products that seem to work best for the end-user and do my best to provide a quality hand-made product. Thanks all for the great discussion.

See you in the water.

58
Quote:

I’ll take a Stratavarius over a machine made violin anytime.

Bonne Nuit

DS at large

Just to clarify this a bit…what I mean is there is pure joy in getting or making something hand crafted. This isn’t to say that other approaches are without soul, commitment or dedication. The shaping rpocess is evolving to say the least, but I want to make it clear that not only is the CNC machining approach valid, but progressing the hand shaping approach is just as possible and rightfully so.

Case in point…my planer has finite capabilities that will not create finer details that I need to be practical in achieving designs that I wish to reproduce with constistent quality. Hence new shaping tools come into play and ways to keep records and tools that allow me to easily (and consistantly) reproduce them or tweak them spontaneously at will. This is the evolution of the new hand shaper versus becoming extinct or a stick-in-the-mud.

59

That was very well said!

I could not agree more!

60

…so, what s exactly did you mean?

that a machine is the evolution of the hand shaper?

I put lots of those machined shapes in my good ole trusty leveled glassing rack…and surprise surprise you obtain a twisted board

that 1/32" is the most foolish thing that I listened in this industry

machine does not belong to the real craftsman artisan

talking about musical instruments…I have a top Dollar Electric Guitar, but I swear for have the money to order a Spanish M. Contreras Carlevaro Model (a Guitar that only 2 men have the plans to build), made by the man himself, not a machine

but I dont have around 15 000 - 20 000 Dollars extras

like the cars, etc

not the same with the boards, because you have a top notch board or a Chinese crap, or a so so back yard, or a machined one, for not so big money difference at all

I don t need to sell my house to buy a $ 1200 board…

may be if the custom boards prices were 20 times higher…

by the way, I think that the boards are so “cheap” is because the 70 s and the bro deals, and the shaper doing boards for friends, etc

“we all know each other, so we do not charge 20 times higher these boards for the local rippers, etc…”