There has been a lot said on the importance of rocker.
But what of foil, and distribution of volume?
Surely foil & distribution play an equally important role ?
Thought’s anyone ?
When I look at a surfboard…
Outline gets a quick glance to see if it is pleasing to the eye and connects the dots well.
As I pick it up, sideways center of board, my hands register the rails…Thickness type etc.
from the center of the board in my hands, my eye scans the the rocker than THICKNESS DISTRIBUTION.
Then a quick glance down the bottom to check contoures bottom type etc.
Maybe a quick look down the deckline…
Done got it…
That is where I place thickness distribution…Kind of high on the list
That's why I say every part affects the rest, and no ONE part of the equation makes any real difference.
Thicker tail for tail lift, allowing you to paddle down once the wave gets to you.
Thinner tail for more control once you're up and going on fast waves.
Thicker tail for tri fins and tail ridden boards.
Thinner tail for single fins and board ridden farther forwards.
Thick for big guys like you.
Thick for little guys like me who ride narrow tail boards in fast waves.
Thick points foil forwards seems to paddle fast.
Thick point back catches waves earlier than the above, but affect feel and precision.
Don't get me started on rail shape, amount of tuck, V's, concaves, rolls, etc.
I’m interested in the different viewpoints about center of mass relative to the wide point; and about deck rocker as it relates to thickness flow. Recent comments by a couple of our veterans have really piqued my interest on this.
Thank’s Lee,
You, like I, think there’s alot more involved than just rocker !!
A recent experiment of my own, based around a design, which I saw here and was able to aquire some dimensions from a very generous contributor {Deadshaper} ,Many thanks !! confirmed my belief’s.
While rockers seem to be held dear by many, it’s a sum of all parts working in unison.
Outline and width, equally important, can create problems if thickness distribution are out of balance ?
I AM goling left. What, you mean the other left?
You can completely change the characteristics of a dialed board, say a CI Flyer, by hardening the tail rails and softening the nose rails. Now the sweetspot is moved back, and anytime the nose get's near the wave, it digs! The tail sinks at slow speeds, and skids down the face of a steep wave.
Not sure I follow , or subscribe to that theory Lee ?
Hard tail = release, No ?
Harden a rail, you give it more surface area. It planes up sooner. It releases on step takeoffs, it digs on slower waves. More surface area means more lift, so you need to stand back siightly, so when you go out the shoulder to cut back, the tail goes out there, then digs a rail.
Softer nose means it digs on slow waves, pushs thru anything steep and fast. But for general surfing, you need to keep the digging out of the water, so you stand farther back to lift it clear. Hence, both changes affect to exagerate the tendencies.
All of that throws the board's basic rocker line out of whack.
Cool, LeeD keep it coming. I’m learning.
Input for this thread:
I try to make my guns looser by keeping the wide point at mid board (rather than 1 or 2" forward, as is customary), but I push the volume a couple of inches forward. My theory is that this is similar to widepoint forward without attendant projection hangups. Seems to work.
The fancy bit is in carrying the thickness to the rail so that the rails foil to the tail in the last 2/3 of the board, rather than go thin, fat, thin (for those of you who remember the Monty Python dinosaur sketch). My intention is to move the rail foil forward of centre.
This is what a 7’0" kneeboard gun looks like out of the water:
There’s all kinds of physics going on with rail foils. IMO too many variables to simplify and distill.
Rail foils are where I think much can still be explored.
Thank’s for the input guy’s, keep it comin !!
In my last experiment, I went to extreme width in outline & I think too long for the amount of volume in front of centre, 7’ 0" - 23", N16" T17", 3" thick.
It goes reaaally fast in clean small waves, however when it gets bigger the extra thickness seems to hinder paddling into waves.
Maybe if board was shorter it would be a different story ?
‘‘In my last experiment, I went to extreme width in outline & I think
too long for the amount of volume in front of centre, 7’ 0" - 23", N16"
T17", 3" thick.’’
If those are extreme than I must be an EXTREMEST.
‘‘It goes reaaally fast in clean small waves, however when it gets bigger
the extra thickness seems to hinder paddling into waves.’’
This, the paddling in the waves part, sounds like a classic example of thickness distribution being off. It does not take much for it to be “off”.
Profile pictures would help to get an idea of what is going on.
Here goes Ace, Keep in mind I’m just a “hacker” !!
https://swaylocks7stage.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/IMG_0844.JPG
Hmmm I have seen worse.I do not think you are to far off.
I know this goes against current accepted wisdom but I like to carry a little more thickness further back.
When you are sitting on the board, in the water, does it feel like you are in the right spot? Or does it feel like you are too far forward or too far back of the “right spot”?
Also when paddling into a wave are you having to shift your body forward or backward to catch the wave than adjusting again to get it going?
Old Fast Phil RIP used to put his hand under the board to find the “Balance point”. I still do it to get an idea of what is going on.
As one knowledgeable poster mentioned, you have to look at the outline first, then go to profile. Without outline, we only get half the story.
I"ve always found thicker noses don't catch waves well, as they resist getting "pushed over the edge"...
Since on tri fins, paddling can be counter to performance, I might see your bottom rocker as too curved from your front foot forwards. That's one of the reasons for the tri rocker idea. When you're standing on the tail, you ride a rockered board. When you're paddling, you're paddling on the flattest part of the rocker, with a little nose rocker to keep the nose up.
Outline pic’s The other half of of the equation ?
Yes Ace, it feels as tho I’m sitting too far forward to balance.
When balancing outta water it also feels slightly forward.
Foil looks ok, although a little thicker than my usual thickness.
I think it’s a combination of nose width & thickness ?
I think the main problem is the colors…
It sounds to me like you have things moved too far forward. If you are a bigger guy? you would benefit with a little more thickness carried into the tail. this offsets the forward balance. Or if you want to thin out the front from where you are sitting and and your chest is when you are paddling that will change things too. Although I do not buy into the thinner board is going to catch waves easier thing. Also a flatter rocker through the middle, 3 stage like mentioned will help some. I like this kind of rocker but it is kind of “old school” { and proven} and I see a lot of people riding what you have there and liking it. I have swapped boards with people with curvier rocker and have a horrible time catching waves even though the board is the same length and “similar” outlines. One was a shops attempt to make a board like “ACE’s” and not have to deal with ACE. The guy was catching way more waves on my board and going further and faster. I could not catch waves for shit and could not get his board to get up and get going if I had to. We swapped back and he went back to not catching waves and going slow and saying how much more he liked his board than mine. Oh yeah his was thinner had wings and looked good in the parking lot.
You say it works good in small waves , what is small and what kind of waves? looks like a fun beach break board. Than you have problems in big waves, what is big and what kind of wave? Sometimes a good small wave design is just that a good small wave board.
My full outline boards, like yours is , are very versatile and ride a pretty good range of waves BUT when it gets BIG I like a little more pulled in tail and nose and a touch narrower board. Not for wave catching but for control.
I still like some thickness, I come from a time when 3" was thin. I am old big and heavy and still surfing.
Surfboards are all tradeoffs and adjustments thats what makes it FUN
Make the changes you think you need in the next one, compare it to your old one, see what works best take note of the changes you are on your way
The chickens seem to like it
Although I"m a lightweight, I also believe in thicker boards. 3" is not too thick for me at 155lbs.
But "thicker or thinner" is defined by WHERE. Thick nose resists tipping into the wave. Thin noses, compared to back and middle, tend to tip downwards and gets you over the hump.
For some of my surfing buds, and one was a SurferMagDesignForumEditor, thick nose and wide thin tail worked. Not for me. I always go for narrow and thick tail, blocky down rails, and very thin narrow noses for a tail riding, NOT a trimming board.
My boards tend to catch waves without much paddling. DesignEditor's ideas tend to catch waves well with lots of full speed early paddling. DesignEditors boards are defined by the PhilEdwards style, and some of the classic surfboard designers.
Still, I HATE wide thin tails, small thin rails, outline's pushed forwards, and thicker fronts than tails.
Yeah, the colours !! Supposed to be a magenta tint ?
It has been tagged “the watermelon”, seedless of course !!
And yes the chooks seem to like it , but ?..When I say small, I mean up to chest high, I’m a little under 6ft, weigh around 220 pounds, so yeah ,I’m not a lightweight.
The story behind this board, is outline & concept is borrowed from Deadshaper & Randall Stoker {V Machine}, many thanks.
The first attempt, went pretty well but lacked some paddling power, was a little flat rockered in the entry but otherwise went pretty well in a wider range of conditions.
In my attempt to rectify the lack of paddling power I seem to have upset the balance, to me the foil looks ok, maybe it’s just too thick for the added area up front ?
Oh, and Ace, I wasn’t tryin to avoid dealin with D/S by doin a copy.
Early in the V Machine thread I was tryin to get my hands on one of the originals, It just is both cost prohibitive and a hassle to get one here unless I can find someone to bring it back for me ?