Forces in Surfing

“But you can’t do a bottom turn on a quarter pipe with a skateboard or snowboard like you can with a surfboard on a wave. Part of the difference is the fact that the wave is moving toward the surfer in the trough of the wave. The other part is that the water is moving back toward the wave, pushing the surfer whose fins and rail are being pushed back by the wave, at the trough.”

You could do that bottom turn if you had as much traction as you do on water and if the lip was moving toward you at 15 mph. As for the “water moving toward the wave,” the work value of that against the board and fins, vs. the much simpler components of gravity and of the wave crest moving toward you is very unclear. Hence the whole discussion.

haha!

TaylorO you understand what going on you’re just not fully joining the dots.

water moving up the wave face, is exactly the same thing as the wave moving towards the wake, i.e. the water surface (like a piece of string) is stationary with the wave moving under it. Its all depends on your perspective or frame of reference. I think it better to think about surfing using the wave as frame of reference and make everything relative to it.

I’m going to give up on my “relative” argument now

either way, you get it, you understand, water is moving up the wave face.

relax → onward

in Burnsie’s diagram the board is NOT planing (yet), he’s still paddling

http://www.swaylocks.com/forum/gforum.cgi?post=277821;#277821

this one?

I may need to print this for bedtime reading

Abuse it…

Once you’ve got some motion, call it kinetic energy if you like, you can abuse it anyway you like. Burnsie’s pictures, neat as they are, are of a rider burning up some excess kinetic energy, and trading some kinetic energy for potential energy during parts of the maneuver. Potential energy here refers to the energy that comes with position in a gravitational field. Admittedly, the fellow has some nice moves, and this kind of skill is very much apart of ‘Surfing’ nowadays, but its not what makes surfing unique.

Unique…

The essence of what make surfing unique dynamically is best appreciated during trimming –i.e. when a surfer is attempting to maintain position, perhaps because he’s or she’s in a tube, for instance. In these circumstances, the surfer is neither climbing nor dropping to any significant degree; yet they must maintain a given position and velocity.

Always there, but sometimes its doing more than just keeping you above the water…

Planing is always present. It’s surely present in Burnsie’s photos, but its definitely not propelling the surfer in any significant way. Planing just refers to the transfer of momentum from the flow of water to the surfer/surfboard system. Sometimes that transfer is just providing a dynamic lift (you could say dynamic buoyancy, but buoyancy tends to refer to hydrostatic lift – its that stuff Archimedes spoke to a while back), and sometime more.

If when you read or hear the word ‘planing’, and a high speed hydroplane with a 90 hp Merc comes to mind you’re not alone – limited in your appreciation for the meaning of the term, but not alone. Savitsky has sketched the basics of the phenomena for us (… okay, maybe just me…)

But this still doesn’t explain how planing could provide propulsion. So here’s how.

Oh my… all I did was rotate the diagram? Disturbing huh. The important bit is to check out the force vectors, a component of the one emanating from the plank is now point in a forward direction. This is what is going on during trim – that unique interaction that makes surfing ‘surfing’ and not skateboarding or snowboarding or skiing or etc.

Summing up…(big finish here)

So lets sum up, there’s ‘Surfing’ which involves just about anything you can do with a surfboard, once you’ve got the kinetic energy (energy of inherent in mass in motion), and then there’s surfing which dynamically involves something called planing, which when the board’s bottom plane is positioned right, allows the surfer to capture the momentum of the flowing water in a wave-form.

Design is concerned with both: your average garden variety non propulsive planing –i…e. when you’re just skimming along the surface, whether you are dropping or climbing or turning; and, during propulsive planing –i.e. when you’re utilizing the flowing water in a wave as a means of acquiring momentum.

Notes for the Outraged?

How dare I suggest that what the surfer is doing in Burnsie’s photos is not unique to surfing regardless of whether or not the word is capitalized? Because you don’t need a wave to do it, though something wet would be recommended. Water skiers do it all the time, though perhaps not exactly so, but definitely without the need of a wave, nor boat, for that matter, at least once they let go of the rope. Water-skiers also plan. Hell, a lot of things plan, but surfing is unique in its exploitation of the phenomena to acquire propulsion. That said, it doesn’t diminish the skill needed to do such things.

kc

PS

In the Savitsky diagram, see the little bit of flow that seems to be shooting off in the direction from which the flow is coming? That’s called, in planing circles, the root spray. In other circles (or forums, which shall go nameless for now) its often called wake. The point being that ii is the origin of most of the ‘wake’ or white stuff(?) you see while watching a surfer, especially when he/she is in trim. In Burnsie’s shots there a lot more going on, but in trim, that’s where most of the white stuff is coming from. It plays a particularly important role during noseriding.


Quote:

ob - Sorry if I come across the kook I can, and may, be, but I’d argue the board and rider are much more akin to “flying” through and over the water, than being pushed back into/up the wave by the water, and as the pictures in the next post shows, to me, the water isn’t moving that fast compared to the rider, and, again, it may just be my bias, but I don’t think I’m holding on to a bias, as I don’t care how it’s described - just how it works, but I would argue the wave seems to move into the wake far more than the wake moves up/into the wave. If you watch surfing from a pier, jetty, or cliff - from right above, it’s always looked to me like the wave moves into what ever is in front of it.

I think that the significance of the water flow up the arc of the wave face depends on the wave (and the part of the wave). Bigger, steeper waves have more “flow”. Waves that break along a shelf have more flow.

I see the “the wave moving into the wake” and and “the wake moving up the wave” as the same thing. I think that as the wave energy moves toward the shore the water moves up the wave.

I don’t think that it takes much water movement to effect the surfer.

What if the water moved as fast as an escalator? Would that be significant enough to effect surfboard design, or the way the surfer approaches the wave?

Have you ever been washed off of a rock or a cliff ledge by a seemingly weak surge of water?

Planing cannot provide propulsion, all it can do is reduce drag, which results in increased speed. The speed being caused by acceleration due to gravity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planing_(sailing)”]http://en.wikipedia.org/…laning_%28sailing%29from

"Planing allows the boat to go faster by using its speed and hull shape to lift the front part of the hull out of the water. The boat travels on top of the water, greatly reducing the hydrodynamic drag on the vessel.

The term ‘planing’ refers to a craft which is predominantly supported by hydrodynamic lift, rather than hydrostatic lift (buoyancy)."

Planing is just the term used to describe an exchange of momentum that can occur when a craft is moving though and/or at the interface between two mediums of differing density.

During surfing, if the surfer/surfboard is positioned right, the forces generated do provide propulsion, the term here is used with respect to the how the components of the resulting force resolve. Call it whatever you like if propulsion bothers you. As for Wikipedia, or whomever wrote the article which you’re quoting – its not wrong, just myopic.

kc

PS

Please consider fleshing out your Swaylock’s profile. It’s for my benefit, I wouldn’t presume to speak for the forum.

Can we define the term “propulsion” as meaning whatever force it is would cause greater net force to be vectored out the back of the surfboard than went in under it? If not, why?

Seemingly, ahem, simple semantics. Diverse, ahem, dynamic discussion.

Notes for the Outraged?

How dare I suggest that what the surfer is doing in Burnsie’s photos is not unique to surfing regardless of whether or not the word is capitalized? Because you don’t need a wave to do it, though something wet would be recommended. Water skiers do it all the time, though perhaps not exactly so, but definitely without the need of a wave, nor boat, for that matter, at least once they let go of the rope. Water-skiers also plan. Hell, a lot of things plan, but surfing is unique in its exploitation of the phenomena to acquire propulsion. That said, it doesn’t diminish the skill needed to do such things.

Huh? How do water skiers plane without a boat initially? You need velocity to plane. Water skiers get it from a boat, Surfers get it from various forces, gravity being a major one and the others being debated.

If you were surfing very steep fast waves and you decided to jump off your board ahead of the wave instead of dropping down with the board, you’d still make it to the bottom.

Have you ever pulled off a very steep fast drop that had your board barely in the water going down? Elevator drop?

I have. Have you? Have you ever been pitched forward ahead of the wave by a lip? Try that in Puerto E. and see how you like it.

We still have the same problem here…the all knowing “trim assumption”. This is about as useful as ignoring the affects of friction in surfing. PLEASE!!!

The subject here is “FORCES IN SURFING”…not “how a surfboard planes in steady state trim”. The simplifying assumptions are a weak attempt to create a high school textbook understanding of something that by its very nature, is very complex.

Waves are complex. Surfing is even MORE complex.

SUPER COMPUTERS CANNOT MODEL REAL MODERN RAIL-BASED SURFING!

SHEESH!!!

“SUPER COMPUTERS CANNOT MODEL REAL MODERN RAIL-BASED SURFING!”

Maybe. Maybe not.

But if anyone can it’s probably these guys…

http://www.tecplot.com/index.aspx

… let go of the rope. ?

Regarding the water skiing comment; reread the post and watch for the phrase “… once they let go of the rope.”

Drag?

Drag is not ignored, though admittedly not explicitly discussed. But please resolve the forces however you like.

Trim?

If you don’t believe a surfboard can maintain a vertical position on a wave while maintaining a longitudinal velocity matching that of the curl, that’s fine. I’m sort of at a loss as to what to say – go surfing or watch people surf - seems to be all I can come up with at the moment.

Forces and Planing?

Lets not forget the pull on the leash from dragging in the water? Planing is a term that refers to a particular application of the transfer of momentum, which in our Newtonian world is always accompanied by forces –i.e. a change in momentum requires a force, Newton’s first law. See comment below regarding parsimony in modeling.

Modeling?

The principles involved here, as applied to both waves and surfing, are simple, but their application is complex. But that’s true for virtually all of the applied sciences. Parsimony is a given in modeling. The strategy is to model as much as you can, and then refine the model with experiment. Fluid dynamics is an applied science, its application rarely occurs without the need to determine some, make that any number of parameters experimentally.

Supercomputers?

Your faith in the ability of supercomputers to discern what is possible is revealing. But its not an argument. That something has not occurred is not an argument against that it might. or will, could, or for that matter, can be done. In some situations it does offer strong support for an argument, but that’s hardly the case here.

Just a suggestion.

Whether my model is right or wrong, modeling surfing is of interest to me, and my guess is that it’s also of some interest to a few others on the forum. I suggest you save yourself some grief and as soon as you get a sniff of modeling navigate away from the thread or post.

kc

KC,

I could easily pick apart every point you just made, but instead, I’ll take your last piece of advice.

Enjoy.

Saying nothing and turning away is one thing, making the boast that you could do this or that then turning away is called cowardice.

kc

Surfing is the mastery of all variables. Have you ever ridden a flow wave machine, the kind you find at water parks? All the variables are fixed and you surf or fall based on your release and capture of drag on your board. All the variables mentioned make you able to surf but they are not in any way controlled by you on earth in the ocean,sea or lake except for release and capture of drag on any given board you are on. Every board has it’s range of performance. For the very skilled at release and capture of drag, that board range is great and totally maximized.Thus, longboartds at pipe and fishes at pinballs. Capture and release of drag is not just in the surfing part either. It’s just as important in paddling out, cathing the wave, getting air or barrled.

Whatever the force, fixed or vairalbe and even at the molecular level, I control only the drag to maximize and enslave all other forces in surfing to have fun, fun, fun!!!

Otay

This thread is diving into technical terms again just to bring it back to my language:

Using the example of the skateboard on a conveyor belt. What if the conveyor belt was shoulder high an angle under 45 degrees and covered in grease.

That starts to equate to a waves being surfed

Quote:

Waves are complex. Surfing is even MORE complex.

I don’t know about that. I figure waves and surfing on them is one of the simplest things on earth to understand. We can gain that understanding by just feeling it. The only time confusion comes in is when we try to think about it from the abstract and that’s why I can’t imagine that KCasey actually does any surfing (or downhill skateboarding/snowboarding for that matter). I also wish Bill would just state what he believes the forces are instead of sitting back trying to give us the impression he knows it all already and saying things like, “you’ve almost got it…”

right, so planing provides one of the forces in surfing - hydrodynamic lift

when we resolve all the forces we get a resultant force acting in one direction at a certain magnitude, this propels us.

I’m happy to call this propulsion.

But planing does not provide propulsion on its own.

Regards the wiki, yes it is a crap page, but the first that came to hand and i thought illustrated my point.

onwards and upwards!

if it’s to complex, then why bother trying to work it out?

think of some complex systems that we understand, galaxies maybe, how did we gain understanding? by simplifying the problem, getting a basic understanding and then adding the complexities, slowly getting a grasp of the whole thing.

We will get there, but there is no point pulling our hair out saying “ah, it’s too fuppin’ hard!!!”

Disclaimer: obviously galaxies are a bad exmaple due to the whole dark matter problem but you know what i mean