Using the example of the skateboard on a conveyor belt. What if the conveyor belt was shoulder high an angle under 45 degrees and covered in grease.
That starts to equate to a waves being surfed
yeah!!
ok but let’s say I want to simulate being on my log, big thick rails and one reasonably sized 9" fin - I would have to grease my conveyor more than you, Assuming your simulating a shortboard, thin rails, multiple fins.
You’d be able to trim, hold position, much higher up the ramp than me, i’d keep slipping down.
There’s more to this, angle of attack from horizontal plane. You would be able to point well below horizontal and thus getting loads of speed across the wave.
Whereas I would have to be closer to horizontal (perhaps more rail in the wave) to hold myself up, thus getting less speed across the wave.
Again, planing is just the term used to refer to the principle ‘transfer of momentum’ in this particular application. The transfer of momentum can provide propulsion.
Since we are referring to a fluid - the liquid called sea or ocean water - which, for all practical purposes is a of constant density at the temperatures and pressures that are likely to be encountered by the vast majority of surfers, the transfer of momentum in this case refers to the changes in velocity of the objects involved. A change in velocity requires a force – a key ingredient of propulsion. ‘Propulsion’ is a reference the direction of the force, not the cause of the force, nor the ‘hows’ of it - it’s a result or consequence of a force.
I have never even been in a wave park (of any kind.) I should also say that I have no problems with them either. In fact given the direction that surfing maneuvers as a whole have taken, the controlled environment of wave parks seems to be a reason place to master the kind of unique skills that are required, not to mention pushing the boundaries of what kind of maneuvers are possible. So, ‘go wave parks’?
Good surfboard design facilitates
Good surfboard design facilitates, which is my impression of what you stated. I completely agree with this. What’s the saying ‘Garbage in, garbage out.’ Or how about, if you suck at surfing, spending an extra $300 on a higher quality board isn’t likely to get you a place in the circuit, or provide you with all that much more fun either.
Any way you can…
Good design is driven by concepts, notions, principles, flashes of insight, whatever the source. Get it and/or approach it however you like. There really doesn’t appear to be any one ‘right’ way.
Creative Drag…
As for what is available to a surfer once he’s surfing, consider reading my Creative Drag thread (there is also a reference to some literature on the Net which you might be interested in), the point being I agree with boarder point, and have said as much.
Motivation?
As for motivation, ‘fun, fun, fun!!’ seems reasonable to me, but I have to admit paddling out in the early morning (alone) seems to also have other benefits, but each to his/her own.
Garbage in, garbage out? If 300 dollars allows you to control drag more effectively you will surf better and hopefully have more fun. As for the pro circuit? Why such low expectations?
Good board design based on better understanding of of the “forces” of surfing? To a point yes, but basically it’s the desire for lighter, stronger, reflexive boards which have a place in a subset of wave conditions. Essentially things haven’t changed that much in design over the decades in surfing. The “forces” have remained the same also but the design hype and BS has certainly increased. To master the forces or make a buck? They both are neither good or bad but when yesterdays news becomes the future hype, I can only think it’s BS marketing with little thought about any “forces” of surfing.
I haven’t read your creative drag thread but you should have called it “creatively controlling drag- the only thing you have some control of”. Once you have chosen the board to use, placed your fins and go out, it is only the human factor that can control drag for that particular board/wave. The human brain is the only thing capable of microsecond responses and adjustments to all the “forces” of surfing and have a successful ride. I suggest the greatest force of surfing is the human factor controlling drag.
Going out alone? Maybe in a human sense, but you really think you’re alone? All those “forces” in surfing surround you and possibly haunt you when you are not even in the water.
A surfboard is a planing craft. Planing is lifting. The fins are lifting planes too. Lift is deflection of flow. Without lift/deflection of flow, all you have is stall. If all your surfboard bottom or fins are doing is dragging/stalling, it doesn’t work. Surfing is about directing flows. Drag is a byproduct. You don’t get to be a shaper for WCT surfers by concentrating on how to make this or that part of their board drag.
Drag is how you manipulate those forces. Once in the water and your board is your board. It’s not adjustable while you are paddling or on a wave. Everything that is designed or set up on the board to “direct flows” or create “lift” is only optimized by the capture or release of drag directly controlled by the surfer.
All other forces except for the capture and release of drag are not in the control of the surfer.
You don’t become a surfer on the WCT by being in bondage to your equipment or shaper. The advantage is all in the surfer. And the news flash is 90% of the pros all ride the same crap that any cnc cutter can reproduce.
Man that would look good on a resume…a shaper for the WCT pros!!!wowwwwwwww. I want to be special too!!!
Pacifica is not all that far from San Clemente. Come down for the Workshop on June 7, and all will be made clear. If I have given the impression that ‘‘I know the answer,’’ it’s no accident, I do. I’m trying to stimulate the thought process among some of the participants in the thread. My narrative on the subject, at the workshop, will not be theory based, but experience based. Photos, and diagrams, included. I know there will be several engineers in attendance, so no bullshit will last more than a few seconds, under their scrutiny. I’d welcome your participation.
“Drag is a force and is therefore a vector quantity having both a magnitude and a direction. Drag acts in a direction that is opposite to the motion of the aircraft. Lift acts perpendicular to the motion.”
"Just an observation: Without the ‘‘circular’’ movement of water molecules, there is NO WAVE. So, it seems to me that it is a very iimportant force. Dirty little secret is, that it is a major contributor to driving the board and rider across the wave. Tapping that energy is also what produces ‘‘airs’’ , intentional, and unintentional.
Bill Thrailkill"
Maybe this link will help demonstrate your point.
The Applet tends to lock up when I change numbers too much.
My brother wrote, “From the diagram of particle motions in an ocean wave, the orbital motion is clockwise with a left-to-right wave motion, so the particles on the front are heading up the front and down the back as the wave passes.”
My two cents worth. This theory applies more to rail to rail surfing rather than off the centre of the tail. As water moves up the face speed is generated by pushing your tail back down the wave against the flow of water. The more resistance there is to your “pushing the tail back down the face” the more opportunity there is to create speed.
Hence the sharp edge on the bottom rail of the tail of a shortboard. It is much harder for water to release from under a sharp edge on a rail of surfboard therefore give you more resistance to push against. Kind of like for every reaction there is an opposite and equal reaction. Or I think that is how the saying went.
“Drag is a force and is therefore a vector quantity having both a magnitude and a direction. Drag acts in a direction that is opposite to the motion of the aircraft. Lift acts perpendicular to the motion.”
Thanks for making my point. The surfer’s controlled release and capture of the force of drag is the brake, steering wheel and gas pedal and launching pad when used on a surfboard in wave riding. It’s true for any board with fins or no fins.
When you pop airs your last effort is a stall to allow the transfer engery of the wave lip to your board and you. You then release the board by pumpimg upward and you are airborn. Who cares right? This is a good example how multiple forces are all controlled at one moment by the brain adjusting drag.
The planing lift potential of any board is a fixed variable. The control range of drag by the surfer is from zero to complete.
Drag is the only force in surfing you can adjust once you are in the water.
Thanks for making my point. The surfer’s controlled release and capture of the force of drag is the brake, steering wheel and gas pedal and launching pad when used on a surfboard in wave riding. It’s true for any board with fins or no fins.
When you pop airs your last effort is a stall to allow the transfer engery of the wave lip to your board and you. You then release the board by pumpimg upward and you are airborn. Who cares right? This is a good example how multiple forces are all controlled at one moment by the brain adjusting drag.
The planing lift potential of any board is a fixed variable. The control range of drag by the surfer is from zero to complete.
Drag is the only force in surfing you can adjust once you are in the water.
IMHO, drag is fairly constant. You can think of it as dampening the forward motion of the rider, since it is directly opposite of the motion of the rider.
It is lift that is controlled by the surfer, via the fins and rail. Lift is modified by how the surfer changes how the fin and rail are positioned in relation to the flow (rider forward motion + water flow). i.e when you are doing a bottom turn the maximum fin area is placed in the direction of flow creating more lift, and when you are dropping in or re-entry the minimum fin area is placed in the direction of flow.
"IMHO, drag is fairly constant. You can think of it as dampening the forward motion of the rider, since it is directly opposite of the motion of the rider.
It is lift (or placement on the wave, where the direction amount of forces is different) that is controlled by the surfer, via the fins and rail. Lift is modified by how the surfer changes how the fin and rail are positioned in relation to the flow (rider forward motion + water flow). i.e when you are doing a bottom turn the maximum fin area is placed in the direction of flow creating more lift, and when you are dropping in or re-entry the minimum fin area is placed in the direction of flow. "
Now wait. Janklow says lift is perpendicualr to the motion of the planing surface. The planing surface is the board and fins. The board and fins are fixed variables once in the water.
It’s not just drag. It’s the capture and release of this force. You are in the middle a forty foot face and you stall by causing more drag by stepping on the tail. You move up the wave. You step foward and release drag and drop near 33 feet per second.
In trim your controlling drag to match all the other forces in play on the wave. This drag force is never constant in the ocean.(possibly in the water park though). Your brain is making constant calcualtions and your body is responding to have a successful ride. Style points for a hand drag in the wave which changes drag. Style points for for rail grab and hand drag in tube which also is controlling drag.
As mentioned previously, I can have true lift, as in getting airborn, by stalling and bamming off the lip with little to do with water flow and forward motion but the transfer of energy from the lip to the surfer. This was all possible due to the control of drag for this transfer to occur.
Drag is not a drag. It is the only force to control and to manipulate and harness all other forces in surfing
It’s the capture and release of this force. You are in the middle a forty foot face and you stall by causing more drag by stepping on the tail. You move up the wave. You step foward and release drag and drop near 33 feet per second.
I think that this is lift, and I can see how you think of it as drag also.
When you step on your tail not only are you slowing your forward progression but you are also putting more of your board surface area in the direction of the flow, creating more lift up the wave.
“when you step on your tail not only are you slowing your forward progression but you are also putting more of your board surface area in the direction of the flow, creating more lift up the wave.”
Actually your downward movement on the face of the wave less than the upward force of the wave getting pushed up from the oceans bottom. Stepping on the tail causes drag. I could accomplish the same thing with my hand or a paddle dragging in the water and not changing the bottom surface of the board at all.
Drag causes this thing you refer to as “lift”? Your defintion of “lift” is not the same as janklow’s. I would just say the wave upward force versus gravity is the issue and my application of the force of drag is controlling the to forces at hand to do somthing called surfing.
So you are saying “surface area” is a force???
The only force the surfer controls is drag. Surface area is not a force. The set surface area for any given board can be used as a tool to release or capture drag by the skilled surfer.
